R7 Announcement Speculation…

Sittatunga · Apr 29, 2022

Steve Balcombe said:
Sittatunga said:

Steve Balcombe said:

There is *huge* pent-up demand for an R7, and obviously Canon knows this just as well as we do. I struggle to find any strategy for the next five to ten years which would benefit from leaving that demand unsatisfied.

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There are some people who really, really, really want one, and quite a few of them are very vocal on dpr, but is that a *huge* pent-up demand? Do we know what the relative proportion of sales for the various Canon models is/was? I do know the equivalent Nikon D500 didn't even make it into the top twenty best selling Nikon APS-C DSLRs.

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And some are very vocal in dismissing the very idea of a crop sensor in an RF body, usually just because they don't personally want one and therefore don't see the point.

I don't spend all my time online, and in real life it seems half the Canon users I talk to are waiting for the R7. This is in the world of bird and wildlife photographers, and while they may not be as great in numbers as old guys photographing their grandkids, they tend to be big spenders. You can be sure that Canon knows this.

I don't know any bird photographers outside the dpr forums, and my wildlife photographer friends do their thing underwater. You didn't reply to the main thrust of my argument (in bold). A mirrorless 7D successor makes a lot of sense to bird and wildlife photographers. In my view a mirrorless 7D successor is the only APS-C RF mount camera that makes much sense at all, and it would be a Godsend to anyone who is running out of pixels per duck. It could also be a camera for people with an RP and an RF 100-400mm who want to get into birds and wildlife without spending thousands on a big white lens and an R5 or R6. But it's not the gateway to FF mirrorless cameras that a lot of people in this thread are hoping for. And it's not the camera for those who just want an affordable decent camera with reasonably priced and sized lenses.

Sittatunga · Apr 29, 2022

Bigger said:
Sittatunga said:

Bigger said:

Marco Nero said:

But at this time and space, there's plenty of more attractive alternatives and in a day where everyone reaches for a Smartphone, the desire for an APS-C camera over a Full Frame camera is reduced along with the shrinking market.

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The smartphone competition cuts both ways. On the one hand, it reduces demand overall, so less room for an APSC camera in the product line, as you argue here. On the other hand, an APSC camera creates a bridge to the more expensive cameras in the line, so not having that further reduces demand.

I think there needs to be an APSC bridge body to keep the prosumer market viable. If there won't be a 100D, or 7Diii, and if the M is dead, then an R7 needs to fill the gap.

Click to expand...

I think the RP is the bridge to the more expensive cameras in the line. The state of the M line reflects Canon's ambitions for APS-C; they will have less interest in consumer level RF mount APS-C cameras than in EOS M, and I don't see them even matching Nikon's four DX format Z mount lenses in RF.

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It's not just the sensor, it's the cost of the lenses too. The 5.73 µm RP provides nowhere near the reach of the 3.19 µm 90D or M6ii. Canon has a bunch of affordable RF FF lenses now that would work just fine on an R7.

An interesting Q is, would an R7 be priced above, below or the same as the RP?

I think, if it were to be the big, weather resistant, robust, fast birding camera that would be sensible, it would be priced above the 90D, so that makes it definitely more than the RP.

Jack Calypso · Apr 29, 2022

MikeJ9116 said:
BirdShooter7 said:

HarryLally said:

Well, it would be no surprise. The 32.5MP sensor already exists in the 90D and M6II. Why not put it in an R body and make loads more cash from the lens sales. Shame, though. I was seriously looking at the M6II as a second body.

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Last I checked there are still m6ii’s for sale.

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The form factor of the M6 cameras is a non starter for most photographers.

Yeah, it's not big and clunky enough to be a "serious" camera.

Bob Janes · Apr 30, 2022

dmanthree said:
A crop sensor R series camera would make sense, and it would (might) also be the death of the M mount.

I know that the flange distance of the M mount is less than RF (by 2mm). How much wider than M is RF? I'm wondering if they could make an adapter that fitted inside the RF bayonet with a 2mm indent.

That would give continuity for owners of M lenses...

dmanthree said:
Just a wild guess, obviously. But for tele shooters who might like the extra reach of their teles it would be really nice.

I think it will be a reality, and the M mount will be orphaned. And hoping Canon supports it with some good ultra-wide and normal zooms. The teles are OK as is.

Mark B. · Apr 30, 2022

sportyaccordy said:
dmanthree said:

A crop sensor R series camera would make sense, and it would (might) also be the death of the M mount. Just a wild guess, obviously. But for tele shooters who might like the extra reach of their teles it would be really nice.

I think it will be a reality, and the M mount will be orphaned. And hoping Canon supports it with some good ultra-wide and normal zooms. The teles are OK as is.

Click to expand...

I dont get why people keep saying this. An R7 won't kill the M mount the same way a 7D2 didn't kill the M mount. An R7 will be a specialized tool that will probably cost twice what the most expensive M body does. APS-C R will n e v e r catch up to M mount lens selection which itself is not as bad as everyone thinks but also far from complete.

M mount was still being developed with new releases when the 7D II came out. But the last body was in 2019.

sportyaccordy said:
I feel like people want M to die and are using the R7 as a opportunity to make their wish come true. But the logic and link between the two makes no sense.

I wish no such thing, but it just doesn't seem likely.

R2D2 · Apr 30, 2022

Marco Nero said:
The subject is an interesting one in that it would immediately make the EOS M system redundant...

Hmmm. In your view exactly how would a large $2000+ wildlife-oriented camera body render the entire M System redundant?

Marco Nero said:
There's a LOT of people who want a small camera with an APS-C sensor for their daily photography.

This completely contradicts the statement you just made above!

The M System has always been about small, light, and inexpensive. Heck, you yourself are a staunch M6 shooter. An R7 would be the antithesis of that kind of camera.

R2

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sportyaccordy · Apr 30, 2022

Bigger said:
Sittatunga said:

Bigger said:

Marco Nero said:

But at this time and space, there's plenty of more attractive alternatives and in a day where everyone reaches for a Smartphone, the desire for an APS-C camera over a Full Frame camera is reduced along with the shrinking market.

Click to expand...

The smartphone competition cuts both ways. On the one hand, it reduces demand overall, so less room for an APSC camera in the product line, as you argue here. On the other hand, an APSC camera creates a bridge to the more expensive cameras in the line, so not having that further reduces demand.

I think there needs to be an APSC bridge body to keep the prosumer market viable. If there won't be a 100D, or 7Diii, and if the M is dead, then an R7 needs to fill the gap.

Click to expand...

I think the RP is the bridge to the more expensive cameras in the line. The state of the M line reflects Canon's ambitions for APS-C; they will have less interest in consumer level RF mount APS-C cameras than in EOS M, and I don't see them even matching Nikon's four DX format Z mount lenses in RF.

Click to expand...

It's not just the sensor, it's the cost of the lenses too. The 5.73 µm RP provides nowhere near the reach of the 3.19 µm 90D or M6ii. Canon has a bunch of affordable RF FF lenses now that would work just fine on an R7.

An interesting Q is, would an R7 be priced above, below or the same as the RP?

The R7 will cost more than the RP. And APS-C RF lenses will be kept to a bare minimum. A kit lens and maybe an UWA zoom. The rest will be existing FF glass. Anyone who thinks the R7 will be the start of a APS-C renaissance is setting themselves up for disappointment. That window is closed

BackToNature1 · Apr 30, 2022

PMUK said:
Is the momentum (or guessulation) growing?

Click here

Phil

(PS I have no idea, but Karen is pretending disinterest… :-D ).

I think folks are forgetting that Canon sold almost 700,000 more DSLRs in 2020 as opposed mirrorless cameras. I would not be shocked if they still sold more DSLRS in 2021 vs mirrorless cameras sales.

So as Canon completes it's transition from DSLRs to 100 percent mirrorless, the R7 makes perfect sense. What doesn't it that folks think otherwise.

They can already use the existing DIGIC X Image Processor along with the current body of the R6 with the already proven 32.5 Megapixel CMOS (APS-C) sensor. Updating that sensor to BSI will just sweeten the mix. So I say it's not a matter of if, but when due to the ongoing Global Supply issues.

Sittatunga · Apr 30, 2022

Bob Janes said:
dmanthree said:

A crop sensor R series camera would make sense, and it would (might) also be the death of the M mount.

Click to expand...

I know that the flange distance of the M mount is less than RF (by 2mm). How much wider than M is RF?

The circular part of the RF female mount outside the bayonet lugs is 54mm diameter, 7mm smaller than the clearance needed for the outside diameter of EF-M lenses. The inside diameter of the RF female bayonet lugs is 51mm, the outside diameter of the EF-M male bayonet lugs is 47mm but their camera-side face would rub on the RF mount electrical contacts if you could shave enough off the outside of the EF-M lens to get it far enough inside the RF mount to focus on infinity. That means there is no room to supply power to the lens to focus, to open the iris from the minimum position, or to power the IS, if you want to do anything other than macro work.

Bob Janes said:
I'm wondering if they could make an adapter that fitted inside the RF bayonet with a 2mm indent.

That would give continuity for owners of M lenses...

Bob Janes said:

Just a wild guess, obviously. But for tele shooters who might like the extra reach of their teles it would be really nice.

I think it will be a reality, and the M mount will be orphaned. And hoping Canon supports it with some good ultra-wide and normal zooms. The teles are OK as is.

Click to expand...

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R2D2 · Apr 30, 2022

BackToNature1 said:
I think folks are forgetting that Canon sold almost 700,000 more DSLRs in 2020 as opposed mirrorless cameras. I would not be shocked if they still sold more DSLRS in 2021 vs mirrorless cameras sales.

So as Canon completes it's transition from DSLRs to 100 percent mirrorless, the R7 makes perfect sense. What doesn't it that folks think otherwise.

Perhaps that not a single thing that Canon’s done in the last 2 years positions them to introduce a new crop RF system?

BackToNature1 said:
They can already use the existing DIGIC X Image Processor along with the current body of the R6 with the already proven 32.5 Megapixel CMOS (APS-C) sensor. Updating that sensor to BSI will just sweeten the mix.

And the fact that they haven’t already speaks volumes.

BackToNature1 said:
So I say it's not a matter of if, but when due to the ongoing Global Supply issues.

I’d in fact like to see a high-end R7. At least for those hold-outs who haven’t made the jump already to the R5, R6, R3.

R2

BackToNature1 · Apr 30, 2022

R2D2 said:
BackToNature1 said:

I think folks are forgetting that Canon sold almost 700,000 more DSLRs in 2020 as opposed mirrorless cameras. I would not be shocked if they still sold more DSLRS in 2021 vs mirrorless cameras sales.

So as Canon completes it's transition from DSLRs to 100 percent mirrorless, the R7 makes perfect sense. What doesn't it that folks think otherwise.

Click to expand...

Perhaps that not a single thing that Canon’s done in the last 2 years positions them to introduce a new crop RF system?

R2D2 said:

They can already use the existing DIGIC X Image Processor along with the current body of the R6 with the already proven 32.5 Megapixel CMOS (APS-C) sensor. Updating that sensor to BSI will just sweeten the mix.

Click to expand...

And the fact that they haven’t already speaks volumes.

R2D2 said:

So I say it's not a matter of if, but when due to the ongoing Global Supply issues.

Click to expand...

I’d in fact like to see a high-end R7. At least for those hold-outs who haven’t made the jump already to the R5, R6, R3.

R2

Shortages from everything to cars to something as simple as food items are an indication of the serious issues of how our Global Supply chain has Failed. So whether or not we have seen the R7 by now is mostly tied to that. Nor is the name that important. What is, the efficient method of making aps-c sensors cameras the old way or the new way as Sony an or Nikon have done.

Again, the fact that the have Not already speaks volumes to the issues of the Failure via the Global Supply chain issues. Look at all the backorder issues just in the Camera Industry alone. An that's hardly just the expensive gear.

R2D2 · Apr 30, 2022

BackToNature1 said:
R2D2 said:

BackToNature1 said:

I think folks are forgetting that Canon sold almost 700,000 more DSLRs in 2020 as opposed mirrorless cameras. I would not be shocked if they still sold more DSLRS in 2021 vs mirrorless cameras sales.

So as Canon completes it's transition from DSLRs to 100 percent mirrorless, the R7 makes perfect sense. What doesn't it that folks think otherwise.

Click to expand...

Perhaps that not a single thing that Canon’s done in the last 2 years positions them to introduce a new crop RF system?

BackToNature1 said:

They can already use the existing DIGIC X Image Processor along with the current body of the R6 with the already proven 32.5 Megapixel CMOS (APS-C) sensor. Updating that sensor to BSI will just sweeten the mix.

Click to expand...

And the fact that they haven’t already speaks volumes.

BackToNature1 said:

So I say it's not a matter of if, but when due to the ongoing Global Supply issues.

Click to expand...

I’d in fact like to see a high-end R7. At least for those hold-outs who haven’t made the jump already to the R5, R6, R3.

R2

Click to expand...

Shortages from everything to cars to something as simple as food items are an indication of the serious issues of how our Global Supply chain has Failed. So whether or not we have seen the R7 by now is mostly tied to that. Nor is the name that important. What is, the efficient method of making aps-c sensors cameras the old way or the new way as Sony an or Nikon have done.

Again, the fact that the have Not already speaks volumes to the issues of the Failure via the Global Supply chain issues. Look at all the backorder issues just in the Camera Industry alone. An that's hardly just the expensive gear.

Simply count up all of Canon's releases since March 2020. Nothing even remotely crop-oriented is among them (and there are a lot).

R2

BackToNature1 · Apr 30, 2022

R2D2 said:
BackToNature1 said:

R2D2 said:

BackToNature1 said:

I think folks are forgetting that Canon sold almost 700,000 more DSLRs in 2020 as opposed mirrorless cameras. I would not be shocked if they still sold more DSLRS in 2021 vs mirrorless cameras sales.

So as Canon completes it's transition from DSLRs to 100 percent mirrorless, the R7 makes perfect sense. What doesn't it that folks think otherwise.

Click to expand...

Perhaps that not a single thing that Canon’s done in the last 2 years positions them to introduce a new crop RF system?

R2D2 said:

They can already use the existing DIGIC X Image Processor along with the current body of the R6 with the already proven 32.5 Megapixel CMOS (APS-C) sensor. Updating that sensor to BSI will just sweeten the mix.

Click to expand...

And the fact that they haven’t already speaks volumes.

R2D2 said:

So I say it's not a matter of if, but when due to the ongoing Global Supply issues.

Click to expand...

I’d in fact like to see a high-end R7. At least for those hold-outs who haven’t made the jump already to the R5, R6, R3.

R2

Click to expand...

Shortages from everything to cars to something as simple as food items are an indication of the serious issues of how our Global Supply chain has Failed. So whether or not we have seen the R7 by now is mostly tied to that. Nor is the name that important. What is, the efficient method of making aps-c sensors cameras the old way or the new way as Sony an or Nikon have done.

Again, the fact that the have Not already speaks volumes to the issues of the Failure via the Global Supply chain issues. Look at all the backorder issues just in the Camera Industry alone. An that's hardly just the expensive gear.

Click to expand...

Simply count up all of Canon's releases since March 2020. Nothing even remotely crop-oriented is among them (and there are a lot).

R2

Okay, that has zero to due with any future releases.

sportyaccordy · Apr 30, 2022

BackToNature1 said:
R2D2 said:

Simply count up all of Canon's releases since March 2020. Nothing even remotely crop-oriented is among them (and there are a lot).

R2

Click to expand...

Okay, that has zero to due with any future releases.

I think you're being unrealistically optimistic. All the brands with FF systems are prioritizing them over crop, IMO for good reason. Supply chain issues have only exacerbated a long and well established trend- the remaining camera buyers are increasingly interested in expensive, "larger" format systems. The few legit crop opportunities are generally specialized and still relatively high end- i.e. Panasonic GH, Fuji X, this rumored R7.

So I think Canon's releases over the last few years have definitely shown where their focus is, and it's definitely not on affordable crop. That customer base is long gone.

lonewolf1983 · Apr 30, 2022

as a sports and wildlife photographer with an R6 - would love the same body/features but with a high resolution crop sensor.
As long as it has decent high ISO performance (in line with say a D500), no low pass filter even better.
In many situations means i can leave the TC off the 300/400/600mm glass

If canon do release it, i expect they will release a cheap RF APS-C lens to go with it, like a 24-70/105mm equivalent

Sittatunga · Apr 30, 2022

sportyaccordy said:
BackToNature1 said:

R2D2 said:

Simply count up all of Canon's releases since March 2020. Nothing even remotely crop-oriented is among them (and there are a lot).

R2

Click to expand...

Okay, that has zero to due with any future releases.

Click to expand...

I think you're being unrealistically optimistic. All the brands with FF systems are prioritizing them over crop, IMO for good reason. Supply chain issues have only exacerbated a long and well established trend- the remaining camera buyers are increasingly interested in expensive, "larger" format systems. The few legit crop opportunities are generally specialized and still relatively high end- i.e. Panasonic GH, Fuji X, this rumored R7.

So I think Canon's releases over the last few years have definitely shown where their focus is, and it's definitely not on affordable crop. That customer base is long gone.

BackToNature1 · Apr 30, 2022

sportyaccordy said:
BackToNature1 said:

R2D2 said:

Simply count up all of Canon's releases since March 2020. Nothing even remotely crop-oriented is among them (and there are a lot).

R2

Click to expand...

Okay, that has zero to due with any future releases.

Click to expand...

I think you're being unrealistically optimistic. All the brands with FF systems are prioritizing them over crop, IMO for good reason. Supply chain issues have only exacerbated a long and well established trend- the remaining camera buyers are increasingly interested in expensive, "larger" format systems. The few legit crop opportunities are generally specialized and still relatively high end- i.e. Panasonic GH, Fuji X, this rumored R7.

So I think Canon's releases over the last few years have definitely shown where their focus is, and it's definitely not on affordable crop. That customer base is long gone.

The only thing I think the past few years has shown is that both Nikon and Canon couldn't afford to let Sony eat their lunch in FF. So therefore that was their first priority. Now that both Nikon and Canon have corrected that issue in an big way, they can put (R&D) back into higher end crop opportunities.

I currently use a Sony a6600 along side the Sony a7ii. I love the ability to use my FF lens on either camera. I also love the ability to be far more discreet when using my cropped camera. So I still stick with the premise that the only reason we haven't see more in the way of cropped from Canon stems solely from the Global Supply chain failures. Delayed, not extinct.

Sittatunga · Apr 30, 2022

lonewolf1983 said:
as a sports and wildlife photographer with an R6 - would love the same body/features but with a high resolution crop sensor.
As long as it has decent high ISO performance (in line with say a D500), no low pass filter even better.
In many situations means i can leave the TC off the 300/400/600mm glass

If canon do release it, i expect they will release a cheap RF APS-C lens to go with it, like a 24-70/105mm equivalent

I expect they won't. If you've already got a 24-70mm or 24-105mm for your R6, why would you buy its equivalent for your APS-C companion camera? An APS-C little sister with its own standard APS-C zoom would steal sales of either the R6 or its standard zoom, so there's another disincentive to producing a lens like that.

sportyaccordy · Apr 30, 2022

BackToNature1 said:
sportyaccordy said:

BackToNature1 said:

R2D2 said:

Simply count up all of Canon's releases since March 2020. Nothing even remotely crop-oriented is among them (and there are a lot).

R2

Click to expand...

Okay, that has zero to due with any future releases.

Click to expand...

I think you're being unrealistically optimistic. All the brands with FF systems are prioritizing them over crop, IMO for good reason. Supply chain issues have only exacerbated a long and well established trend- the remaining camera buyers are increasingly interested in expensive, "larger" format systems. The few legit crop opportunities are generally specialized and still relatively high end- i.e. Panasonic GH, Fuji X, this rumored R7.

So I think Canon's releases over the last few years have definitely shown where their focus is, and it's definitely not on affordable crop. That customer base is long gone.

Click to expand...

The only thing I think the past few years has shown is that both Nikon and Canon couldn't afford to let Sony eat their lunch in FF. So therefore that was their first priority. Now that both Nikon and Canon have corrected that issue in an big way, they can put (R&D) back into higher end crop opportunities.

Why would they do that, when the market for high end crop is limited at best?

Canon, Nikon and Sony all had a point where they were crop only, and focused all their R&D and attention to high end crop. Even then, when consumers literally had no FF options, they never fully embraced crop at the high end. For example, you compare Nikon's FX vs DX 2.8 zooms, the FX zooms destroy DX zooms on sales figures despite the FX zooms often having been on sale for half the time, and both format lenses facing a lot of cheap 3rd party pressure.

BackToNature1 said:
I currently use a Sony a6600 along side the Sony a7ii. I love the ability to use my FF lens on either camera. I also love the ability to be far more discreet when using my cropped camera. So I still stick with the premise that the only reason we haven't see more in the way of cropped from Canon stems solely from the Global Supply chain failures. Delayed, not extinct.

I think you are making the mistake of assuming that because you want high end crop that a critical mass of consumers do. There are millions of camera buyers every year, even in this small market. What are you seeing that indicates they want high end crop in big numbers?

And your personal example is a little dubious. How is an A6600 with a FF lens any more discreet than a full FF setup?

I recently had to pick between FX and crop, and I think my story shows another problem for crop. Last year I sold all my Canon RF stuff and needed to choose another system. I was torn between the A7III and X-S10. When I tallied up the system costs, the A7III kit was only a couple hundred dollars more than the Fuji kit. Let's call it a difference of $500. In the context of a ~$2000-3000 kit, which you can easily hit with a high end crop kit, what percent of consumers do you think will go crop rather than FF? Take your personal preferences out of the equation and think objectively about what the typical consumer wants, and then you will understand how the industry operates. A lot of confusion about what camera companies do stems from people projecting their personal preferences as the industry at large. That just isn't how it is.

R2D2 · Apr 30, 2022

Sittatunga said:
lonewolf1983 said:

as a sports and wildlife photographer with an R6 - would love the same body/features but with a high resolution crop sensor.
As long as it has decent high ISO performance (in line with say a D500), no low pass filter even better.
In many situations means i can leave the TC off the 300/400/600mm glass

If canon do release it, i expect they will release a cheap RF APS-C lens to go with it, like a 24-70/105mm equivalent

Click to expand...

I expect they won't. If you've already got a 24-70mm or 24-105mm for your R6, why would you buy its equivalent for your APS-C companion camera? An APS-C little sister with its own standard APS-C zoom would steal sales of either the R6 or its standard zoom, so there's another disincentive to producing a lens like that.

Bingo!

R2

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