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Using the word "Crop" seems Demeaning

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joslocum said:
I get that 35mm film was around for so long that it became the standard size, but if you really look at a FF sensor it is quite small physically. I mean, how many FF sensors would actually fit on a standard sheet of paper?

This is why I giggle when someone refers to anything smaller than FF to be a Crop.
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You might giggle, but the fact is, "crop camera" actually originally meant a camera with a smaller sensor area than the line of lenses that it is intended for can use. That is not silly, if you don't heap myths on top of "crop".

And so, "crop factor" became a thing, and it was then extended to sensors that do not use lenses deigned for a larger sensing area by default, like 1" sensors, which have their own lens series or built-in lenses.

Nothing wrong with this "crop math", as long as you do all of it when thinking of equivalence; many users of small-sensor cameras like to kid themselves that the actual open f-ratio is still the "equivalent f-ratio", when in fact, it is not.
 
TN Args said:
joslocum said:
Fogel70 said:
joslocum said:
I hear it all the time here.

-Oh, you have a crop camera.

...or...

-Oh, I see you have a crop sensor, so that's why...

...or...

-Is this the original image or did you crop it?

...or...

-Should I crop it in camera or in post?

Mostly you hear this from amateurs and pros who have full frame cameras, which they believe to have the largest sensor and is superior to anything smaller. Well, the medium format folks may disagree and Ansel Adams would have a good laugh as I believe his used to shoot in 8" x 10" format.

If you own a medium format camera is a FF considered a crop camera?

Let's discuss.
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I think you missed the origins of "crop".

It comes from when ILC (SLR) became digital and used a smaller sensor than film size the system originally was designed for. (At the beginning it was called "focal length multiplyer" which is really wierd as focal length is not affected).

There are medium format crop cameras too, with sensors larger than FF.

Technically a MFT camera is not a crop camera at the system is designed for MFT. Although the sensor used has a crop factor of 2x.
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I gotta tell ya', I haven't missed much. I've been into photography since the stone age including shooting with a Nikonos underwater camera and two strobes.

I'm making more of an observation about the standard by which we judge sensors and which ones are Cropped.

I think sybersitizen in reply #3 sums it up. Cheers!
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There is no such reply. Great summary indeed LOL!
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Hum, it looks like he/they deleted it for whatever reason.
TN Args said:
Fogel70 is right. When 35mm SLR system cameras became digital, and SLR owners added a digital body to their set of bodies and lenses, their new digital bodies only produced an image that was a crop of the image they were getting from their 35mm SLR bodies with any given lens.

Hence the term “cropped-image sensor” was both sensible and correct, and was shortened to “crop sensor”. Nothing insulting, nothing demeaning, just an accurate and necessary descriptive term.

OTOH I do understand your concerns about trolls with an attitude problem. Unfortunately eliminating the word “crop” won’t reduce the trolling. Just ask the m43 vets whose DPR forum has been constantly trolled by “sizists”, even though the term “crop sensor” is relatively rare there.

cheers
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Phil A Martin said:
joslocum said:
cutterpup said:
I have been on the "wrong side" according to many people, for decades. In my film days I was told to dump my Pentax because only Nikon or Cannon would do. To be fair, this was only said by non-photographers.

Shortly after I got my Nikon 7200 I pulled into the parking lot at a local lake. Someone spotted my camera and went, "Cool, what lens are you using?" He saw my lens and immediately turned away saying ' "Oh, you're using the kit lens" I didn't bother telling him that the lens on the camera was not my only one, just the one I kept on the camera when traveling.

I ended up getting a Z50 instead of the Z7 I had been wanting (personal reasons, long story) and got the "Oh it's a crop body" from a Z6 user.

I have found that for the most part, these types of remarks come from people who are trying to justify their purchase.

I have no issue with my cameras being crop bodies. Call them what you will.
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When folks ask what camera I'm shooting with I say, It's a Ricoh. After a blank pause the reply is always, You mean the copier people?

But yes, only Nikon, Canon, and Leica are "real" cameras according to the masses.
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I've got a silver Pentax KP and someone once approached me asking why I was shooting film. Now that would really upset some people here. 😀
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I did most of my early shooting with an Olympus OM-1 and OM-2. Shot a lot of Tri-X. People would ask me why I would shoot B&W when color is better?

When my father passed I discovered he had 70 carousel trays of slides. I have been slowly having them scanned to digital. That's a lot of images!
 
Quarkcharmed said:
joslocum said:
I hear it all the time here.

-Oh, you have a crop camera.

...or...

-Oh, I see you have a crop sensor, so that's why...

...or...

-Is this the original image or did you crop it?

...or...

-Should I crop it in camera or in post?

Mostly you hear this from amateurs and pros who have full frame cameras, which they believe to have the largest sensor and is superior to anything smaller. Well, the medium format folks may disagree and Ansel Adams would have a good laugh as I believe his used to shoot in 8" x 10" format.

If you own a medium format camera is a FF considered a crop camera?

Let's discuss.
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Yeah, "crop" is abusive and derogatory... and discriminating...

From now on, let's call it "areally compromised".
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I actually like where one guy said it was a "partial sensor". ;)
 
joslocum said:
Quarkcharmed said:
joslocum said:
I hear it all the time here.

-Oh, you have a crop camera.

...or...

-Oh, I see you have a crop sensor, so that's why...

...or...

-Is this the original image or did you crop it?

...or...

-Should I crop it in camera or in post?

Mostly you hear this from amateurs and pros who have full frame cameras, which they believe to have the largest sensor and is superior to anything smaller. Well, the medium format folks may disagree and Ansel Adams would have a good laugh as I believe his used to shoot in 8" x 10" format.

If you own a medium format camera is a FF considered a crop camera?

Let's discuss.
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Yeah, "crop" is abusive and derogatory... and discriminating...

From now on, let's call it "areally compromised".
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I actually like where one guy said it was a "partial sensor". ;)
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I prefer an impartial one, regardless of size.
 
Gourownway said:
Why do you care? Other people are entitled to express a view on a public or open forum. It’s not realistic to expect other people to change their behaviour in a way that improves how you feel about life.
The word crop is just part of the language that is used. I am sure some will use it in a loaded and egotistical way or to bait others who feel insecure about their gear. But, why would you want to empower their weaknesses by allowing puerile commentary to bother you?
just enjoy your gear and stop concerning yourself with the opinions of others.
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I haven't lost much sleep over it my DPR friend.

This is just a forum for discussion; it's not for arms and legs.

But I find it funny, everyone wants everything exactly the same way but when a new model of camera is released everyone can't wait to get their hands on it.
 
There used to be a story that the 35mm weren't intended to be originally used but it was designed accidentally for 35mm and they liked it.
 
Klaus dk said:
I'm not sure being offended on behalf of a sensor is something that can be solved in a photography forum.
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I wasn't really trying to solve anything; and or course, not one single person on this website will ever use a word other than Crop, ever.

But I will say, other than being beaten like a rented mule here, I have enjoyed the responses.

Keep 'em comin', I can handle it.
 
Klaus dk said:
I'm not sure being offended on behalf of a sensor is something that can be solved in a photography forum.
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You're right about that. I'm amazed that so many people joined in on the discussion.
 
FrancoD said:
Klaus dk said:
I'm not sure being offended on behalf of a sensor is something that can be solved in a photography forum.
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The only way to settle this is for the OP tochallenge someone to a duel :

d368f9826a1042b288609f41e1784dd5.jpg
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I believe this image has been...Cropped!
 
joslocum said:
I hear it all the time here.
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I shoot crop cameras (and don't shoot FF) and regularly use "crop" to differentiate APS-C and m43 from FF.
joslocum said:
Mostly you hear this from amateurs and pros who have full frame cameras,
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That's not my experience. But I mostly hang out in forums that discuss crop cameras.

I know a few m43 folks, in particular, get offended at the notion that their sensors are "crop" sensors because the system is designed for them and so they are, technically, "full frame". Similarly, Fuji's APS-C should be "full frame" while "crop" is more appropriate within Nikon, Canon and Sony systems where the mount is shared with FF. But at this point, crop is convenient shorthand that means "smaller than FF" and falls under "everyone knows what it means".

It kind of sets up FF as a holy grail of sorts ... there's FF and then there's crop. But APS-C is awkward to type and more awkward to say and I don't need my ego boosted by using a more flattering term for my crop sensor cameras.

The big question is - why get offended ? Suppose there really are these apish buffoons out there who want to ridicule your use of a crop sensor camera ... they'd find a way to do that even if you could mandate a change in terminology. Instead of saying "oh, you use a crop sensor" they'd say "oh, you use an APS-C camera" ...

On that note, while I've never run across any FF snobs in person, I do remember going to Photoplus one year and asking a rep at the Tamron booth if I could try out a certain lens. I had my Sony A700 at the time. He said they didn't have any in Sony mount with him, but he could try it out on his camera and "that way, you can try out a Nikon, too" (as if all Sony users are just dying to try out a Nikon!)
In a nutshell: calling crop sensors something else doesn't make them any bigger. Snobs are gonna be snobs and insecure photographers are gonna be insecure. Learn to be secure in your choice of gear and carry on.

- Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
 
J A C S said:
Michael Fryd said:
J A C S said:
Michael Fryd said:
J A C S said:
Equivalent FL is not a measure of an angle of view. It is a measure of what FL on the reference FF format would give the same AOV. [...]
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When we say that a lens has a "50mm Equivalent FL", we are saying that the combination of that lens on that format has the same Angle of View as a 50mm lens on a 35mm film SLR.
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Now, compare your statement with mine.
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Yes, we both agree that “50mm Equivalent FL” describes the angle of view. We both agree that the units are “focal length on a traditional 35mm film SLR”.

Our difference is that I say that EFL is a measurement of Angle of View, and you are suggesting that it is not, as it is using units that reference a standard (the way “Kilogram” used to be defined as the weight of a specific piece of metal that was kept locked away).
 
Dennis said:
That's not my experience. But I mostly hang out in forums that discuss crop cameras.

I know a few m43 folks, in particular, get offended at the notion that their sensors are "crop" sensors because the system is designed for them and so they are, technically, "full frame".
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Indeed. That argument goes back to the original Olympus 4/3 DSLRs. I shot with 4/3 for a variety of reasons but stayed out of the sensor size arguments. When 4/3 was discontinued and the manufacturer switch to M43, I went back to Pentax.
Dennis said:
In a nutshell: calling crop sensors something else doesn't make them any bigger. Snobs are gonna be snobs and insecure photographers are gonna be insecure. Learn to be secure in your choice of gear and carry on.
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Agreed
Dennis said:
- Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
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joslocum said:
Klaus dk said:
I'm not sure being offended on behalf of a sensor is something that can be solved in a photography forum.
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I wasn't really trying to solve anything; and or course, not one single person on this website will ever use a word other than Crop, ever.

But I will say, other than being beaten like a rented mule here, I have enjoyed the responses.

Keep 'em comin', I can handle it.
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Oh well, there's always the ignore list for those who are only in it to waste time.
 
I happen to be wearing my 'Oh Crop' t-shirt today. ;-)

David
 
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