What has been your experience with ProRaw?

I’m interested in the insights of those of you who have been shooting in ProRaw. I’m using the suite of tools in the native app, and so far I’m not seeing much difference in well-lighted photos. I do plan to try some high contrast and low light shots, to see what Pro Raw might give me there. What has been your experience with Pro Raw?

I’m finding it useful and often surprisingly good. It is essential to remember that ProRAW is indeed a raw format. It is not for viewing unprocessed. I recommend first processing it in the Photos app, for which it is well matched. I generally start with auto and then fine tune the various parameters. Of course, it can also be finished out of Camera with any number of apps.

Here’s a recent example chosen at random, processed in Pixelmator Photo and Snapseed.


Port Townsend boatyard on a gray day.

--
I may not respond to your post if you have not posted photos to your Gallery or entered any Challenges. Nothing personal, I just like to have a sense of my correspondent.

Thanks. I’m starting in the native app too. I’ll keep working with it.

Interestingly the latest version of SilkyPix Pro seems to be the only PC/Mac program I've seen that can use some of the embedded extra info...

I plan to play with it when I get a sec...

WillMc said:

I’m interested in the insights of those of you who have been shooting in ProRaw. I’m using the suite of tools in the native app, and so far I’m not seeing much difference in well-lighted photos. I do plan to try some high contrast and low light shots, to see what Pro Raw might give me there. What has been your experience with Pro Raw?

Click to expand...

I tested out the ProRAW settings on the iPhone 13 Pro Max and found there's actually quite a difference in the way image details are rendered and compressed. Mostly this is with illumination, detail and overall image integrity. The HEIF files themselves are generally great but when photographing something tricky, like a highly detailed landscape or foliage against a bright sky background, the HEIF files tend to over-sharpen these details (which can ruin an otherwise perfect picture) - whereas the ProRAW shots capture all the essential details without the over-sharpening... plus you get to push the Dynamic Range a bit further during editing.
.
I thought ProRAW would be essential for shooting with the iPhone 13 Pro (Max) but I'd say I barely use it for 2% of the photographs I take. For highly complex imagery, it would be of use. Especially if the lighting is difficult. A well exposed HEIF (HEIC) files is all you need for most photography these days. But for those who only use the iPhone as their main camera, ProRAW may be of considerable interest to them.
.


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in ProRAW


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in ProRAW

.
With the shot above showing a white thundercloud in the distance, I knew that there was a very good chance that anything less than RAW would blow out the highlights of the cloud. So I used ProRAW for that shot after spending the entire day shooting HEIF/HEIC. This enabled me to edit the image whilst recovering details that were visible to the eye but might have been missed without using ProRAW. The clouds looked strange when I saw them since the sun was directly behind me at the time and interesting textures and details were visible on the clouds as they formed.
.
The other image above was the Sydney Opera House on a sunny day recently. This was my first use of ProRAW with the iPhone. I though that the brightly lit surface of the Opera House would likely blow out the highlights so I opted for ProRAW. As you can see from the shadows, the sun was at a 90 degree angle from the direction I was shooting so I captured a darker portion of the sky behind the Opera House, making it look like I used a Polarizing Filter (which I did not). I think I could have edited this image better by reducing cyan and introducing more yellow... but it's acceptable.

.


iPhone 13 Pro (Max). I'm generally happy with the majority of results from this phonecam.

.
The images below show two exaples of why I enjoy shooting in the default mode with HEIF (HEIC) files. They offer a higher bitrate. My personal opinion if that these types of file formats still have a bit of data compression taking place along with more sharpening than I would prefer. It's fine with the majority of images but the main reason I'll shoot with HEIF is because it's simply convenient. There's sometimes a HDR effect (all of the iPhone HEIC files are captured as HDR) but the resulting images can be very appealing. Due to the in-camera processing, there's sometimes a glow around subjects that are backlit by bright skies, typical of a poorly edited image where an editor drops the sky brightness whilst boosting/raising the shadows. You can see this easily in the first shot below, yet it's perfectly acceptable to me. The other two shots feature the artificial bokeh that the new iPhone Pro's excel at rendering. Another reason why I don't often shoot RAW with the iPhone but at least the option is there for those tricky subjects.

.


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... enabling in-camera auto-editing/corrections


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... enabling use of Portrait Mode for shallow DOF.


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... enabling use of Portrait Mode for shallow DOF.


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... pretty much an ideal exposure


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... accurately exposed.

.

The remaining two images above: The shot of a townhouse complex demonstrates a near-perfect exposure with room for recovering both highlights and shadows if desired. This almost looks like it was shot using ProRAW (but it wasn't). Then there's the wide view of a sunset with several people on a rocky lookout. There's the usual hint of a 'glow' around the foreground, typical of a backlit scenes. The sun itself ought to be completely blown out but the HDR effect kept the majority of the highlights intact. A scene like this one might have benefited more from ProRAW.
.
I find that Lightroom currently imports ProRAW images (along with Photoshop) and adds an automatic tweak to the exposures which I can either keep or remove. Editing the images further whilst saving them as TIFFs or PSDs enables me to revisit them for additional editing - prior to saving the images as JPEGs for posting online or emailing.
.
As for ProRAW, it's good to have it available as there will sometimes be a genuine need to use it. Usually you know which image will need it - even before you take the picture. But I do find that ProRAW is by no means the same as a regular RAW image from a DSLR or Mirrorless camera. There's definitely some internal editing taking place, including sharpening and noise reduction and this does show in the freshly downloaded ProRAW images if you look closely. But If you want the most realistic looking exposures of skies, especially where complex and detailed foregrounds exist, you do need to be shooting with ProRAW. My biggest complaint would actually be the inability for modern phone cameras to accurately nail color when it comes to combinations of Green and Blue. The blues in some skies have too much or too little magenta in them... and the greens are often an issue, almost always requiring an edit during post processing. The best results come from the main (1x) camera on the iPhone 13 Pro models because the entire sensor is active when using it to nail AF and exposures. There's less distortion as well and when using it for subjects within a few feet away, the camera will use the built-in LIDAR to determine proximity and apply a depth map.
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The two images below were shot last week in HEIC and I don't think they'd have benefited from ProRAW. Just nailing the exposure is enough to allow for plenty of editing afterwards if needed. Neither of these two shots required much in the way of editing. Certainly no additional sharpening was required. I'm generally quite happy with images like these and they rival a decent lens on my APS-C mirrorless cameras.
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iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... an ideal exposure with no crushed details


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... an ideal exposure with no crushed details

--
Regards,
Marco Nero.

Marco Nero said:

WillMc said:

I’m interested in the insights of those of you who have been shooting in ProRaw. I’m using the suite of tools in the native app, and so far I’m not seeing much difference in well-lighted photos. I do plan to try some high contrast and low light shots, to see what Pro Raw might give me there. What has been your experience with Pro Raw?

Click to expand...

I tested out the ProRAW settings on the iPhone 13 Pro Max and found there's actually quite a difference in the way image details are rendered and compressed. Mostly this is with illumination, detail and overall image integrity. The HEIF files themselves are generally great but when photographing something tricky, like a highly detailed landscape or foliage against a bright sky background, the HEIF files tend to over-sharpen these details (which can ruin an otherwise perfect picture) - whereas the ProRAW shots capture all the essential details without the over-sharpening... plus you get to push the Dynamic Range a bit further during editing.
.
I thought ProRAW would be essential for shooting with the iPhone 13 Pro (Max) but I'd say I barely use it for 2% of the photographs I take. For highly complex imagery, it would be of use. Especially if the lighting is difficult. A well exposed HEIF (HEIC) files is all you need for most photography these days. But for those who only use the iPhone as their main camera, ProRAW may be of considerable interest to them.
.


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in ProRAW


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in ProRAW

.
With the shot above showing a white thundercloud in the distance, I knew that there was a very good chance that anything less than RAW would blow out the highlights of the cloud. So I used ProRAW for that shot after spending the entire day shooting HEIF/HEIC. This enabled me to edit the image whilst recovering details that were visible to the eye but might have been missed without using ProRAW. The clouds looked strange when I saw them since the sun was directly behind me at the time and interesting textures and details were visible on the clouds as they formed.
.
The other image above was the Sydney Opera House on a sunny day recently. This was my first use of ProRAW with the iPhone. I though that the brightly lit surface of the Opera House would likely blow out the highlights so I opted for ProRAW. As you can see from the shadows, the sun was at a 90 degree angle from the direction I was shooting so I captured a darker portion of the sky behind the Opera House, making it look like I used a Polarizing Filter (which I did not). I think I could have edited this image better by reducing cyan and introducing more yellow... but it's acceptable.

.


iPhone 13 Pro (Max). I'm generally happy with the majority of results from this phonecam.

.
The images below show two exaples of why I enjoy shooting in the default mode with HEIF (HEIC) files. They offer a higher bitrate. My personal opinion if that these types of file formats still have a bit of data compression taking place along with more sharpening than I would prefer. It's fine with the majority of images but the main reason I'll shoot with HEIF is because it's simply convenient. There's sometimes a HDR effect (all of the iPhone HEIC files are captured as HDR) but the resulting images can be very appealing. Due to the in-camera processing, there's sometimes a glow around subjects that are backlit by bright skies, typical of a poorly edited image where an editor drops the sky brightness whilst boosting/raising the shadows. You can see this easily in the first shot below, yet it's perfectly acceptable to me. The other two shots feature the artificial bokeh that the new iPhone Pro's excel at rendering. Another reason why I don't often shoot RAW with the iPhone but at least the option is there for those tricky subjects.

.


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... enabling in-camera auto-editing/corrections


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... enabling use of Portrait Mode for shallow DOF.


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... enabling use of Portrait Mode for shallow DOF.


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... pretty much an ideal exposure


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... accurately exposed.

.

The remaining two images above: The shot of a townhouse complex demonstrates a near-perfect exposure with room for recovering both highlights and shadows if desired. This almost looks like it was shot using ProRAW (but it wasn't). Then there's the wide view of a sunset with several people on a rocky lookout. There's the usual hint of a 'glow' around the foreground, typical of a backlit scenes. The sun itself ought to be completely blown out but the HDR effect kept the majority of the highlights intact. A scene like this one might have benefited more from ProRAW.
.
I find that Lightroom currently imports ProRAW images (along with Photoshop) and adds an automatic tweak to the exposures which I can either keep or remove. Editing the images further whilst saving them as TIFFs or PSDs enables me to revisit them for additional editing - prior to saving the images as JPEGs for posting online or emailing.
.
As for ProRAW, it's good to have it available as there will sometimes be a genuine need to use it. Usually you know which image will need it - even before you take the picture. But I do find that ProRAW is by no means the same as a regular RAW image from a DSLR or Mirrorless camera. There's definitely some internal editing taking place, including sharpening and noise reduction and this does show in the freshly downloaded ProRAW images if you look closely. But If you want the most realistic looking exposures of skies, especially where complex and detailed foregrounds exist, you do need to be shooting with ProRAW. My biggest complaint would actually be the inability for modern phone cameras to accurately nail color when it comes to combinations of Green and Blue. The blues in some skies have too much or too little magenta in them... and the greens are often an issue, almost always requiring an edit during post processing. The best results come from the main (1x) camera on the iPhone 13 Pro models because the entire sensor is active when using it to nail AF and exposures. There's less distortion as well and when using it for subjects within a few feet away, the camera will use the built-in LIDAR to determine proximity and apply a depth map.
.
The two images below were shot last week in HEIC and I don't think they'd have benefited from ProRAW. Just nailing the exposure is enough to allow for plenty of editing afterwards if needed. Neither of these two shots required much in the way of editing. Certainly no additional sharpening was required. I'm generally quite happy with images like these and they rival a decent lens on my APS-C mirrorless cameras.
.


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... an ideal exposure with no crushed details


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... an ideal exposure with no crushed details

Click to expand...

The biggest thing about the iPhone is consistency. I have been doing a lot of comaprisons between phone cameras, and I want a lightweight video rig for our travel blog and other things. The thing about the iPhone is it takes the same looking pictures or photos every time. Colors are similar, detail is similar no matter the situation. The only place the android-based phones beat it is nighttime detail and zoom. Two things I won't use. I have ordered a bunch of moment lenses and accessories, a gimbal and a camera grip for my iPhone and I will be shooting video with this exclusively this year for travel. We should get some decent results from it I am sure.

--
Fronterra Photography Tours
One Lens, No Problem
The Point and Shoot Pro
The People of the Red and White stand with the people of the yellow and blue!

Marco Nero said:

WillMc said:

I’m interested in the insights of those of you who have been shooting in ProRaw. I’m using the suite of tools in the native app, and so far I’m not seeing much difference in well-lighted photos. I do plan to try some high contrast and low light shots, to see what Pro Raw might give me there. What has been your experience with Pro Raw?

Click to expand...

I tested out the ProRAW settings on the iPhone 13 Pro Max and found there's actually quite a difference in the way image details are rendered and compressed. Mostly this is with illumination, detail and overall image integrity. The HEIF files themselves are generally great but when photographing something tricky, like a highly detailed landscape or foliage against a bright sky background, the HEIF files tend to over-sharpen these details (which can ruin an otherwise perfect picture) - whereas the ProRAW shots capture all the essential details without the over-sharpening... plus you get to push the Dynamic Range a bit further during editing.
.
I thought ProRAW would be essential for shooting with the iPhone 13 Pro (Max) but I'd say I barely use it for 2% of the photographs I take. For highly complex imagery, it would be of use. Especially if the lighting is difficult. A well exposed HEIF (HEIC) files is all you need for most photography these days. But for those who only use the iPhone as their main camera, ProRAW may be of considerable interest to them.
.


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in ProRAW


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in ProRAW

.
With the shot above showing a white thundercloud in the distance, I knew that there was a very good chance that anything less than RAW would blow out the highlights of the cloud. So I used ProRAW for that shot after spending the entire day shooting HEIF/HEIC. This enabled me to edit the image whilst recovering details that were visible to the eye but might have been missed without using ProRAW. The clouds looked strange when I saw them since the sun was directly behind me at the time and interesting textures and details were visible on the clouds as they formed.
.
The other image above was the Sydney Opera House on a sunny day recently. This was my first use of ProRAW with the iPhone. I though that the brightly lit surface of the Opera House would likely blow out the highlights so I opted for ProRAW. As you can see from the shadows, the sun was at a 90 degree angle from the direction I was shooting so I captured a darker portion of the sky behind the Opera House, making it look like I used a Polarizing Filter (which I did not). I think I could have edited this image better by reducing cyan and introducing more yellow... but it's acceptable.

Click to expand...

The shots above highlight an issue I have with the 13 Pro Max images, and that is how much it smears out details. This is especially visible in the clouds & leaves in the first image. Will shooting in HEIF reduce that? It's baffling to me that a raw format is still not truly raw since it obviously has post-processing going on.

Marco Nero said:

.


iPhone 13 Pro (Max). I'm generally happy with the majority of results from this phonecam.

.
The images below show two exaples of why I enjoy shooting in the default mode with HEIF (HEIC) files. They offer a higher bitrate. My personal opinion if that these types of file formats still have a bit of data compression taking place along with more sharpening than I would prefer. It's fine with the majority of images but the main reason I'll shoot with HEIF is because it's simply convenient. There's sometimes a HDR effect (all of the iPhone HEIC files are captured as HDR) but the resulting images can be very appealing. Due to the in-camera processing, there's sometimes a glow around subjects that are backlit by bright skies, typical of a poorly edited image where an editor drops the sky brightness whilst boosting/raising the shadows. You can see this easily in the first shot below, yet it's perfectly acceptable to me. The other two shots feature the artificial bokeh that the new iPhone Pro's excel at rendering. Another reason why I don't often shoot RAW with the iPhone but at least the option is there for those tricky subjects.

.


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... enabling in-camera auto-editing/corrections


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... enabling use of Portrait Mode for shallow DOF.


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... enabling use of Portrait Mode for shallow DOF.


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... pretty much an ideal exposure


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... accurately exposed.

.

The remaining two images above: The shot of a townhouse complex demonstrates a near-perfect exposure with room for recovering both highlights and shadows if desired. This almost looks like it was shot using ProRAW (but it wasn't). Then there's the wide view of a sunset with several people on a rocky lookout. There's the usual hint of a 'glow' around the foreground, typical of a backlit scenes. The sun itself ought to be completely blown out but the HDR effect kept the majority of the highlights intact. A scene like this one might have benefited more from ProRAW.
.
I find that Lightroom currently imports ProRAW images (along with Photoshop) and adds an automatic tweak to the exposures which I can either keep or remove. Editing the images further whilst saving them as TIFFs or PSDs enables me to revisit them for additional editing - prior to saving the images as JPEGs for posting online or emailing.
.
As for ProRAW, it's good to have it available as there will sometimes be a genuine need to use it. Usually you know which image will need it - even before you take the picture. But I do find that ProRAW is by no means the same as a regular RAW image from a DSLR or Mirrorless camera. There's definitely some internal editing taking place, including sharpening and noise reduction and this does show in the freshly downloaded ProRAW images if you look closely. But If you want the most realistic looking exposures of skies, especially where complex and detailed foregrounds exist, you do need to be shooting with ProRAW. My biggest complaint would actually be the inability for modern phone cameras to accurately nail color when it comes to combinations of Green and Blue. The blues in some skies have too much or too little magenta in them... and the greens are often an issue, almost always requiring an edit during post processing. The best results come from the main (1x) camera on the iPhone 13 Pro models because the entire sensor is active when using it to nail AF and exposures. There's less distortion as well and when using it for subjects within a few feet away, the camera will use the built-in LIDAR to determine proximity and apply a depth map.
.
The two images below were shot last week in HEIC and I don't think they'd have benefited from ProRAW. Just nailing the exposure is enough to allow for plenty of editing afterwards if needed. Neither of these two shots required much in the way of editing. Certainly no additional sharpening was required. I'm generally quite happy with images like these and they rival a decent lens on my APS-C mirrorless cameras.
.


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... an ideal exposure with no crushed details


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... an ideal exposure with no crushed details

Click to expand...

These last 2 are better, though it still seems like there's PP involved?

Mark B. said:

Member said:

iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... an ideal exposure with no crushed details


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... an ideal exposure with no crushed details

Click to expand...

These last 2 are better, though it still seems like there's PP involved?

Click to expand...

They're HEIF/HEIC files (converted to JPEG for posting online). But aside from a minor adjustment in the Levels on the last image (to raise the shadows slightly on the dark brown building), they look like the HEIC images captured by the iPhone. No sharpening or NR was needed.
.



--
Regards,
Marco Nero.

Why do you favor H E I C over JPEG? is it just a question of storage size?

ProRaw has assorted computational photography stuff done to the image. You can use an App like Halide or ProCamera to shoot "real" Raw images, but you may be quite disappointed at how poorly teeny sensors perform without all the multi-image computational fun-and-games...

Marco Nero said:

Mark B. said:

Marco Nero said:

iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... an ideal exposure with no crushed details


iPhone 13 Pro (Max) - Shot in HEIF... an ideal exposure with no crushed details

Click to expand...

These last 2 are better, though it still seems like there's PP involved?

Click to expand...

They're HEIF/HEIC files (converted to JPEG for posting online). But aside from a minor adjustment in the Levels on the last image (to raise the shadows slightly on the dark brown building), they look like the HEIC images captured by the iPhone. No sharpening or NR was needed.
.

--
Regards,
Marco Nero.

Click to expand...

What about the first 2? Is the smeared detail in the clouds and leaves typical for ProRaw? I’m finding this on mine as well.

Mark B. said:

What about the first 2? Is the smeared detail in the clouds and leaves typical for ProRaw? I’m finding this on mine as well.

Click to expand...

The first shot used the 3x (77mm) lens which is VERY PRONE to producing a smeared detail in images. It was also shot through a dirty windscreen whilst the vehicle was driving at 110kmph. However, those blades of grass and leaves on passing trees were sharp enough under these conditions. I believe my first shots were in HEIC and were devoid of practical detail, which is why I switched to ProRAW for this image. But these sensors are TINY compared to those on a DSLR... even a DSLR with a low resolution. That's why they can't resolve complex scenes.
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The second shot of the Sydney Opera House is sharp.
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3x (77mm) - iPhone 13 Pro Max - my first shot using ProRAW - taken after an initial image using HEIC was oversharpened and smeared.

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That 3x (77mm) lens that everyone here seems so obsessed with using has a peculiar habit of under-performing. The one thing it routinely does is produce oddly compressed image data quite regularly, even with ProRAW. My experiments were forwarded to Apple as I noted there were unpredictable performance results exclusively from the 77mm lens. There's a number of theories why this is happening but the lack of consistency means you can never be truly certain if your next picture will be a smeared mess or something amazing.
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26mm lens - no image compression


26mm lens - image is acceptable. No image compression.


iPhone 13 Pro switched AUTOMATICALLY to the 77mm (3x) lens when shooting this cranefly (or whatever it is)... causing the image details to be smeared badly. This was SUPPOSED to be a Macro image but the camera would switch to whatever lens it felt like using until a Firmware update allowed you to deactivate the default lens-switching process.

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Digital Zoom?
Another issue with the 77mm lens was that when shooting a Macro image or a Closeup, the iPhone 13 often used to switch between lenses at will. It wasn't until a Firmware update allowed the owner to override this feature (as a result of complaints) that the problem was resolved. With the feature turned OFF, the iPhone 13 Pro no longer attempts to switch between lenses and you now need to activate the 0.5x (Ultra Wide) lens when shooting super close because this is the default Closeup/Macro lens. But notice how much the image details of that last picture of a fly (above) have been smeared by the use of the 77mm lens? There is a theory that the iPhone 13 defaults to Digital Zoom using a different lens at a similar focal distance. This means that for many of the 77mm shots, we're actually using a wider lens (not the 3x lens) and the camera is then engaging Digital Zoom to equate to 77mm. This explanation perfectly explains the inconsistencies and issues (and examples) experienced by many.
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We know Apple is cheating with ProRAW because it's by no means a true RAW image. It's simply Apple's version of a RAW image which includes editing and sharpening inside the camera, something RAW images should be devoid of. It's also possible that the iPhone is combining multiple images together (which is what HEIC files tend to do when coming from an iPhone). HEIC files are HDR by nature. They have a higher bitrate and contain more data than a JPEG. Generally speaking, I tend to use them over JPEG for this reason... a bit like a 'Poor-Man's RAW file'.
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3x (77mm) lens - An example of details smearing with the iPhone 13 Pro Max. Those distant mountain/cliffs are distinctly smeared and look like a watercolor painting. Shot in HEIC.


3x (77mm) lens on the iPhone 13 Pro Max used... using the ProRAW setting.


3x (77mm) lens on the iPhone 13 Pro Max used... but with ProCam App using the RAW setting. This would normally be a very difficult shot for the iPhone using the native Camera App. You can't get shots like these with JPEG or HEIC because of the in-camera sharpening that produces high amounts of anti-aliasing around high contrast areas.. Capturing lunar details is also difficult after the sun has dropped .


3x (77mm) lens on the iPhone 13 Pro Max used. No idea if this is smeared due to the subject.

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Below are a few images of a watch on my desktop at home. The first image may look clean and it's not cropped. It was taken with the 77mm (3x) lens and was the best of around 10 pictures... with others being horrid. This image looks sharp but it's also displaying smeared details as a very low level. It was also taken at Minimum Focus Distance with the iPhone resting on my table against another object. The second image is perfect and it's what we've come to expect from the Wide Default Lens at 26mm. Where it gets interesting is when I switched between the Native app on the iPhone (called 'Camera') and another App I had on my phone called 'ProCam'. When you start comparing these images you can see the level of inconsistency from that 77mm lens.

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Taken with the 3x (77mm) lens of the iPhone 13 Pro Max. Some basic details starting to smear here.


Taken with the 1x (default) lens on the iPhone 13 Pro Max.


A series of tests with a rested iPhone showing a remarkable amount of inconsistency and a variety of results concerning focus when using the 77mm (3x) lens.


Switching to JPEG with the iPhone's internal settings made no difference.


3x (77mm) again - The results of switching from the Camera App to the ProCam App which I had on my phone as a secondary app. The ProCam App performed MUCH better and reduced the amount of smearing or blurring. That first picture on the left (HEIC) file was carefully focused before taking the picture. Yet it's clearly less sharp than the one on the right (TIFF).

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My conclusion is that the iPhone 13 Pro camera phone is fine with wide or Ultra Wide lenses but that the 3x (77mm) lens is greatly flawed in that there is no consistency or reliability with image details. Sometimes it will capture a gem but 2/3 of the time it will capture a smeared mess, with or without ProRAW. Using ANOTHER App on the device has produced better results for other photographers and also myself. So when shooting with the 77mm camera, if the image is important to me, I will switch to the ProCam App instead of the native iPhone App.

--
Regards,
Marco Nero.

itsallBb2me said:

Why do you favor H E I C over JPEG? is it just a question of storage size?

Click to expand...

ADOBE: "HEIC stands for High Efficiency Image Container. The format is an updated variant of the High Efficiency Image Format (HEIF), traditionally used by Apple across its mobile devices."
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The HEIC files are actually a type of 'File Container'. As such, they can contain multiple image data or even movie clips... and also retain up to 16-Bit color depth capability (and they tend to be HDR). Though I suspect the bitrate is closer to 12-bits and online sourced imply they may only be 10-bit. This enables me to capture more dynamic range than a native JPEG can contain at 8-Bits. And HEIC files are smaller by default because they use a different compression algorithm.
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Despite this, HEIC files still need to be converted to JPEGs before you can post them online. I don't mind the size of the files being smaller although the various sizes of hard drives available on the phone may influence some users. For more important pictures I would be tempted to shoot ProRAW with the iPhone but for most images I'm more than happy to shoot HEIC. I did try shooting with JPEG but found that I was left with less room for editing and recovering highlights and shadows etc. A regular camera would give me MUCH better JPEGs, in my opinion. I have HEIC/HEIF available on my larger Full Frame mirrorless cameras and yet I prefer to shoot in JPEG with those. But they tend to have better Dynamic Range to begin with and their images and colors look more natural. So why does Apple use HEIC? Probably because the image look better on their iPhone, iPad and iMac screens when displayed. I don't think Apple care all that much about the efficiency of these file formats... it's likely to be more about presentation.
.


A HEIC (HEIF) file shot last night with my iPhone 13 Pro Max just after sunset. The colors and details in the sky would likely have been blown out with a JPEG. The colors tend to be richer due to more data and the HDR effect of HEIC files but this can be altered later.


A JPEG image shot under difficult circumstances with a dedicated Camera + lens. Note how the water has bright highlights from the sun that are blown out... as well as a significant portion of the sky? A HEIC file would have likely handled this far better. It would still be possible to expose this image better than shown here, but shooting in RAW or HEIC would allow for easier highlight recovery.


A HEIC file from the iPhone 13 Pro Max. The highlights of the sunset are not blown out. Again, the image is strongly saturated in color but this too is the result of the HDR effect of the HEIC files.


Saturated Colors and reflections usually remain intact with HEIC files whilst skies are rarely blown out as they would be with JPEG images taken with dedicated cameras.



--
Regards,
Marco Nero.

Marco Nero said:

Mark B. said:

What about the first 2? Is the smeared detail in the clouds and leaves typical for ProRaw? I’m finding this on mine as well.

Click to expand...

The first shot used the 3x (77mm) lens which is VERY PRONE to producing a smeared detail in images. It was also shot through a dirty windscreen whilst the vehicle was driving at 110kmph. However, those blades of grass and leaves on passing trees were sharp enough under these conditions. I believe my first shots were in HEIC and were devoid of practical detail, which is why I switched to ProRAW for this image. But these sensors are TINY compared to those on a DSLR... even a DSLR with a low resolution. That's why they can't resolve complex scenes.
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The second shot of the Sydney Opera House is sharp.
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3x (77mm) - iPhone 13 Pro Max - my first shot using ProRAW - taken after an initial image using HEIC was oversharpened and smeared.

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That 3x (77mm) lens that everyone here seems so obsessed with using has a peculiar habit of under-performing. The one thing it routinely does is produce oddly compressed image data quite regularly, even with ProRAW. My experiments were forwarded to Apple as I noted there were unpredictable performance results exclusively from the 77mm lens. There's a number of theories why this is happening but the lack of consistency means you can never be truly certain if your next picture will be a smeared mess or something amazing.
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26mm lens - no image compression


26mm lens - image is acceptable. No image compression.


iPhone 13 Pro switched AUTOMATICALLY to the 77mm (3x) lens when shooting this cranefly (or whatever it is)... causing the image details to be smeared badly. This was SUPPOSED to be a Macro image but the camera would switch to whatever lens it felt like using until a Firmware update allowed you to deactivate the default lens-switching process.

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Digital Zoom?
Another issue with the 77mm lens was that when shooting a Macro image or a Closeup, the iPhone 13 often used to switch between lenses at will. It wasn't until a Firmware update allowed the owner to override this feature (as a result of complaints) that the problem was resolved. With the feature turned OFF, the iPhone 13 Pro no longer attempts to switch between lenses and you now need to activate the 0.5x (Ultra Wide) lens when shooting super close because this is the default Closeup/Macro lens. But notice how much the image details of that last picture of a fly (above) have been smeared by the use of the 77mm lens? There is a theory that the iPhone 13 defaults to Digital Zoom using a different lens at a similar focal distance. This means that for many of the 77mm shots, we're actually using a wider lens (not the 3x lens) and the camera is then engaging Digital Zoom to equate to 77mm. This explanation perfectly explains the inconsistencies and issues (and examples) experienced by many.
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We know Apple is cheating with ProRAW because it's by no means a true RAW image. It's simply Apple's version of a RAW image which includes editing and sharpening inside the camera, something RAW images should be devoid of. It's also possible that the iPhone is combining multiple images together (which is what HEIC files tend to do when coming from an iPhone). HEIC files are HDR by nature. They have a higher bitrate and contain more data than a JPEG. Generally speaking, I tend to use them over JPEG for this reason... a bit like a 'Poor-Man's RAW file'.
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3x (77mm) lens - An example of details smearing with the iPhone 13 Pro Max. Those distant mountain/cliffs are distinctly smeared and look like a watercolor painting. Shot in HEIC.


3x (77mm) lens on the iPhone 13 Pro Max used... using the ProRAW setting.


3x (77mm) lens on the iPhone 13 Pro Max used... but with ProCam App using the RAW setting. This would normally be a very difficult shot for the iPhone using the native Camera App. You can't get shots like these with JPEG or HEIC because of the in-camera sharpening that produces high amounts of anti-aliasing around high contrast areas.. Capturing lunar details is also difficult after the sun has dropped .


3x (77mm) lens on the iPhone 13 Pro Max used. No idea if this is smeared due to the subject.

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Below are a few images of a watch on my desktop at home. The first image may look clean and it's not cropped. It was taken with the 77mm (3x) lens and was the best of around 10 pictures... with others being horrid. This image looks sharp but it's also displaying smeared details as a very low level. It was also taken at Minimum Focus Distance with the iPhone resting on my table against another object. The second image is perfect and it's what we've come to expect from the Wide Default Lens at 26mm. Where it gets interesting is when I switched between the Native app on the iPhone (called 'Camera') and another App I had on my phone called 'ProCam'. When you start comparing these images you can see the level of inconsistency from that 77mm lens.

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Taken with the 3x (77mm) lens of the iPhone 13 Pro Max. Some basic details starting to smear here.


Taken with the 1x (default) lens on the iPhone 13 Pro Max.


A series of tests with a rested iPhone showing a remarkable amount of inconsistency and a variety of results concerning focus when using the 77mm (3x) lens.


Switching to JPEG with the iPhone's internal settings made no difference.


3x (77mm) again - The results of switching from the Camera App to the ProCam App which I had on my phone as a secondary app. The ProCam App performed MUCH better and reduced the amount of smearing or blurring. That first picture on the left (HEIC) file was carefully focused before taking the picture. Yet it's clearly less sharp than the one on the right (TIFF).

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My conclusion is that the iPhone 13 Pro camera phone is fine with wide or Ultra Wide lenses but that the 3x (77mm) lens is greatly flawed in that there is no consistency or reliability with image details. Sometimes it will capture a gem but 2/3 of the time it will capture a smeared mess, with or without ProRAW. Using ANOTHER App on the device has produced better results for other photographers and also myself. So when shooting with the 77mm camera, if the image is important to me, I will switch to the ProCam App instead of the native iPhone App.

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Marco, thanks for the detailed analysis, really appreciate that! I'll give the ProCam App a try.

Mark

BTW, who is the developer for the ProCam app? I’m finding more than one app with a variant of that name.

Thanks,

Mark

Mark B. said:

BTW, who is the developer for the ProCam app? I’m finding more than one app with a variant of that name.

Thanks,

Mark

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Same company. I downloaded a version for my iPhone 6s quite a few YEARS AGO and it automatically updated when I moved my apps across to the new iPhone 13 Pro Max. The software is the same, despite the various names. I think the current version is called ProCam 8. It recognizes all three cameras aboard the new iPhones and offers TIFF. RAW. JPEG. HEIC etc plus better control of the Macro (enabling slightly closer focusing plus focus highlight control). It effectively enables you to get a few millimeters closer whilst still being able to focus on the Macro subject. I generally prefer to use the Native application (called simply "CAMERA") for most photography and then switch to ProCam for tricky or difficult subjects. It has quite a few extra features on it.

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When/if you first download it - especially if you recover it from an older version on a previous phone, you may need to go into your iPhone menu and select your Apps. Then locate the ProCam App and enable ProCam to access your Photos program. This allows ProCam to load pictures into your phone's Camera/Photo folders. If you don't do this, the App won't have authority to store pictures on your device. The app gives you full control over your iPhone... aperture, shutter, ISO etc. ProCam is the less expensive of the two top apps. The other App is newer but requires a stupid Yearly Subscription so I passed on it. Even the "evaluation version" of that other App requires your credit card details... so, no thanks.

Thank you for your thoughtful and comprehensive replies to my original question. You’ve given me much to think about.