E-10: Watch out for Yellow Snow

Nancy

There are a couple of ways of going about this:

1) Rely on the in-camera WB (using a white card).
2) Rely on Photoshop or similar as a post process.

3) Utilise an FL- filter from the likes of B+W etc to correct the cast - you would need to ascertain the colour temp of the lights in situ (rated in Kelvin) to assess which rating of FL- filter to use (normally a number after the dash).
Or mixtures of all three!

Having done this, of course you will find that whichever 'lighting setup' you decide upon will have to be taken into account.

Flash based would be best - taking an average class size here in the UK as 25, I would suggest 2 heads to start, one as the main (or 'key') light, one as a fill-in (perhaps at 25% output), with a guide number of at least 45. Softening the main light with a softbox would be good. Most modern two-head packages are fairly portable; everything folds away. If you are in the UK Jessops own-brand flash units aren't at all bad on a budget, otherwise Elinchrom would be my recommendation.
This would also in most cases negate the need for the FL filter.

Tungsten lighting is another, cheaper option. But you would then be adding another non-daylight rated colur temp source - with the flourescents as well it now gets tricky!

There are also daylight rated flourescent lighting heads - constant light source, run cool etc...but can be expensive. DIY would be an option with a qualified electrician on hand - the ballasts are also hard to get hold of.

So, no quick fix. But then, that's photography - regardless of the medium!

No doubt you will get many contrdictionary inputs - but that's the strength of these forums. Between all of us there is a huge fund of knowledge and experience.

Hope this helped a bit!

(Er.....classroom sized photos??! Wot kinda printer YOU gonna be using? LOL)

Regards

Simon
As a graphic design coordinator I will primarily use the E-10 or
other similar camera thatour school plans to purchase.
Most of the photos taken by our school photographer using a medium
format camera in
classrooms with fourescent lighting have produced significant green
cast and dark
transparencies. Has anyone used the E-10 in similar circumstances?
Any suggestions
on camera settings. Also I need specifics on lighting set ups that
are especially portable and produce well lit digital photos (up to
classroom size) with no visible hot spots or significant light drop
off?
 
Masterpiece in 30 seconds..well 30 seconds yes..masterpiece..might be pushing it!

It will only take 30 seconds in photoshop to give you a repectable image with deep blues, nice whites and all those bits in between.

Here's how:

Open your original image.

Open the curves box (ctrl M)
click centre eyedropper (under Auto)

Now using the eyedropper click on your image halfway between the nearest bush and the bottom margin.. See easy!

If you haven't got a balanced image go to the blue channel within curves. click on a point miway between the bottom of the curve and the middle dot and pull, push move it untill you are happy.

If the image is way off double click the middle eyedropper and make sure the setings are 127R,127G,127B.

A final question; there are lots of hot pixels in the image is this the result of too much sharpening or were they there in the original image?

If you have trouble I will post an image to the forum.

Roger.
I had some major problems getting a white balance with outdoor
night shots on my E-10. I tried every white balance setting,
including auto and manual, but the strong street lights caused the
snow to turn yellow at every color temperature setting. I haven't
fiddled much with the WB settings previously, but it seems there
are circumstances when you just won't be able to get it right.

Here are the versions, one corrected (with much difficulty) in
Photoshop, and its just barely passable:
http://members2.clubphoto.com/joe203619/Yellow_Snow/

Anyone know of a way around this white balance problem?

Joe Hawblitzel
 
Please explain HOT pixels? Thanks :-)
It will only take 30 seconds in photoshop to give you a repectable
image with deep blues, nice whites and all those bits in between.

Here's how:

Open your original image.

Open the curves box (ctrl M)
click centre eyedropper (under Auto)
Now using the eyedropper click on your image halfway between the
nearest bush and the bottom margin.. See easy!

If you haven't got a balanced image go to the blue channel within
curves. click on a point miway between the bottom of the curve and
the middle dot and pull, push move it untill you are happy.

If the image is way off double click the middle eyedropper and make
sure the setings are 127R,127G,127B.

A final question; there are lots of hot pixels in the image is this
the result of too much sharpening or were they there in the
original image?

If you have trouble I will post an image to the forum.

Roger.
I had some major problems getting a white balance with outdoor
night shots on my E-10. I tried every white balance setting,
including auto and manual, but the strong street lights caused the
snow to turn yellow at every color temperature setting. I haven't
fiddled much with the WB settings previously, but it seems there
are circumstances when you just won't be able to get it right.

Here are the versions, one corrected (with much difficulty) in
Photoshop, and its just barely passable:
http://members2.clubphoto.com/joe203619/Yellow_Snow/

Anyone know of a way around this white balance problem?

Joe Hawblitzel
 
Masterpiece in 30 seconds..well 30 seconds yes..masterpiece..might
be pushing it!

It will only take 30 seconds in photoshop to give you a repectable
image with deep blues, nice whites and all those bits in between.

Here's how:

Open your original image.

Open the curves box (ctrl M)
click centre eyedropper (under Auto)
Now using the eyedropper click on your image halfway between the
nearest bush and the bottom margin.. See easy!

If you haven't got a balanced image go to the blue channel within
curves. click on a point miway between the bottom of the curve and
the middle dot and pull, push move it untill you are happy.

If the image is way off double click the middle eyedropper and make
sure the setings are 127R,127G,127B.

A final question; there are lots of hot pixels in the image is this
the result of too much sharpening or were they there in the
original image?
I'm not sure where the pixels are you are referring to. The snow was sparkling and there are a lot of spots in the snow - these are actually glints of light which didn't reproduce very well - they look more like white dots. Otherwise, it was an 8 second exposure (for focus) so you'll see a lot of noise with enlargement.

Thanks for the tip. I'm going to try it!
If you have trouble I will post an image to the forum.

Roger.
I had some major problems getting a white balance with outdoor
night shots on my E-10. I tried every white balance setting,
including auto and manual, but the strong street lights caused the
snow to turn yellow at every color temperature setting. I haven't
fiddled much with the WB settings previously, but it seems there
are circumstances when you just won't be able to get it right.

Here are the versions, one corrected (with much difficulty) in
Photoshop, and its just barely passable:
http://members2.clubphoto.com/joe203619/Yellow_Snow/

Anyone know of a way around this white balance problem?

Joe Hawblitzel
 
Please explain 8 sec. for focus. Do you mean 8 sec. for exposure?

Gene
It will only take 30 seconds in photoshop to give you a repectable
image with deep blues, nice whites and all those bits in between.

Here's how:

Open your original image.

Open the curves box (ctrl M)
click centre eyedropper (under Auto)
Now using the eyedropper click on your image halfway between the
nearest bush and the bottom margin.. See easy!

If you haven't got a balanced image go to the blue channel within
curves. click on a point miway between the bottom of the curve and
the middle dot and pull, push move it untill you are happy.

If the image is way off double click the middle eyedropper and make
sure the setings are 127R,127G,127B.

A final question; there are lots of hot pixels in the image is this
the result of too much sharpening or were they there in the
original image?

If you have trouble I will post an image to the forum.

Roger.
I had some major problems getting a white balance with outdoor
night shots on my E-10. I tried every white balance setting,
including auto and manual, but the strong street lights caused the
snow to turn yellow at every color temperature setting. I haven't
fiddled much with the WB settings previously, but it seems there
are circumstances when you just won't be able to get it right.

Here are the versions, one corrected (with much difficulty) in
Photoshop, and its just barely passable:
http://members2.clubphoto.com/joe203619/Yellow_Snow/

Anyone know of a way around this white balance problem?

Joe Hawblitzel
 
Were you shooting under high-pressure sodium vapor lighting? These
and other types of gaseous discharge lights emit distorted, narrow
spectrums of pink, orange or blue that are practically impossible
to correct for in photographs.

Rich {C2020z, C2100uz, C3030z, HP970C}
I had some major problems getting a white balance with outdoor
night shots on my E-10. I tried every white balance setting,
including auto and manual, but the strong street lights caused the
snow to turn yellow at every color temperature setting. I haven't
fiddled much with the WB settings previously, but it seems there
are circumstances when you just won't be able to get it right.

Here are the versions, one corrected (with much difficulty) in
Photoshop, and its just barely passable:
http://members2.clubphoto.com/joe203619/Yellow_Snow/

Anyone know of a way around this white balance problem?

Joe Hawblitzel
Hi,

I think you were asking the camera to record white snow when it was not white. Nighttime, early morning, mid day, and at sunset all will have different of snow.

As a portrait photography I only shot outdoors in the early mornings or late atfernoon the light is much better not only the color but the quality. Our mind will change what our we see to what it "should" look like. Cameras can not do this.

Film is even more subject to the light color then digital. That is way most portrait photographers have no problem with the top speed shutter of 1/640 we are not going to be shooting in noon sun.
 
Hi, assuming you just wanted to remove the yellow cast from the snow, and not the whole image, I selected the snow in Photoshop, then in Curves, increased the blue, decreased the red, and here's the result. I just started playing around with Photoshop and don't really know much about how to use it, but this didn't take very long....or maybe I misunderstood what you were looking for (which is entirely possible). Anyway, can you take a look and tell me if this is what you meant. Also, thanks for the opportunity to play around with this! K.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1331074&a=10481864&p=35559443
I had some major problems getting a white balance with outdoor
night shots on my E-10. I tried every white balance setting,
including auto and manual, but the strong street lights caused the
snow to turn yellow at every color temperature setting. I haven't
fiddled much with the WB settings previously, but it seems there
are circumstances when you just won't be able to get it right.

Here are the versions, one corrected (with much difficulty) in
Photoshop, and its just barely passable:
http://members2.clubphoto.com/joe203619/Yellow_Snow/

Anyone know of a way around this white balance problem?

Joe Hawblitzel
 
Not just portrait photographers Randall! I've just been out freezing my bo* ocks off after the sun came up :-).

Jono
Were you shooting under high-pressure sodium vapor lighting? These
and other types of gaseous discharge lights emit distorted, narrow
spectrums of pink, orange or blue that are practically impossible
to correct for in photographs.

Rich {C2020z, C2100uz, C3030z, HP970C}
I had some major problems getting a white balance with outdoor
night shots on my E-10. I tried every white balance setting,
including auto and manual, but the strong street lights caused the
snow to turn yellow at every color temperature setting. I haven't
fiddled much with the WB settings previously, but it seems there
are circumstances when you just won't be able to get it right.

Here are the versions, one corrected (with much difficulty) in
Photoshop, and its just barely passable:
http://members2.clubphoto.com/joe203619/Yellow_Snow/

Anyone know of a way around this white balance problem?

Joe Hawblitzel
Hi,

I think you were asking the camera to record white snow when it was
not white. Nighttime, early morning, mid day, and at sunset all
will have different of snow.
As a portrait photography I only shot outdoors in the early
mornings or late atfernoon the light is much better not only the
color but the quality. Our mind will change what our we see to
what it "should" look like. Cameras can not do this.
Film is even more subject to the light color then digital. That is
way most portrait photographers have no problem with the top speed
shutter of 1/640 we are not going to be shooting in noon sun.
 
Hi,

That's the reason I moved from the East Coast to the Gulf sunsets over the water are much more photograhic than sunrises (and warmer) :)))! But I would trade places with you today. My first session this AM was a little girl with 4 (!) kittens, no three kittens, wait two kittens, make that one kitty, ah, four cats now, were is the GIRL, bring the mop!!!!!! What a way to make a living!!!!!!
Lovin' my E-10!

Randall
in Alabama
Jono
Were you shooting under high-pressure sodium vapor lighting? These
and other types of gaseous discharge lights emit distorted, narrow
spectrums of pink, orange or blue that are practically impossible
to correct for in photographs.

Rich {C2020z, C2100uz, C3030z, HP970C}
I had some major problems getting a white balance with outdoor
night shots on my E-10. I tried every white balance setting,
including auto and manual, but the strong street lights caused the
snow to turn yellow at every color temperature setting. I haven't
fiddled much with the WB settings previously, but it seems there
are circumstances when you just won't be able to get it right.

Here are the versions, one corrected (with much difficulty) in
Photoshop, and its just barely passable:
http://members2.clubphoto.com/joe203619/Yellow_Snow/

Anyone know of a way around this white balance problem?

Joe Hawblitzel
Hi,

I think you were asking the camera to record white snow when it was
not white. Nighttime, early morning, mid day, and at sunset all
will have different of snow.
As a portrait photography I only shot outdoors in the early
mornings or late atfernoon the light is much better not only the
color but the quality. Our mind will change what our we see to
what it "should" look like. Cameras can not do this.
Film is even more subject to the light color then digital. That is
way most portrait photographers have no problem with the top speed
shutter of 1/640 we are not going to be shooting in noon sun.
 
hahahahahahahaha

Sounds like you should have bought the E-100 LOL, RAPID FIRE!

Kids, Gotta Love em :-)
Randall
in Alabama
Jono
Were you shooting under high-pressure sodium vapor lighting? These
and other types of gaseous discharge lights emit distorted, narrow
spectrums of pink, orange or blue that are practically impossible
to correct for in photographs.

Rich {C2020z, C2100uz, C3030z, HP970C}
I had some major problems getting a white balance with outdoor
night shots on my E-10. I tried every white balance setting,
including auto and manual, but the strong street lights caused the
snow to turn yellow at every color temperature setting. I haven't
fiddled much with the WB settings previously, but it seems there
are circumstances when you just won't be able to get it right.

Here are the versions, one corrected (with much difficulty) in
Photoshop, and its just barely passable:
http://members2.clubphoto.com/joe203619/Yellow_Snow/

Anyone know of a way around this white balance problem?

Joe Hawblitzel
Hi,

I think you were asking the camera to record white snow when it was
not white. Nighttime, early morning, mid day, and at sunset all
will have different of snow.
As a portrait photography I only shot outdoors in the early
mornings or late atfernoon the light is much better not only the
color but the quality. Our mind will change what our we see to
what it "should" look like. Cameras can not do this.
Film is even more subject to the light color then digital. That is
way most portrait photographers have no problem with the top speed
shutter of 1/640 we are not going to be shooting in noon sun.
 
You ppppooooor thing - I don't have to do nothing like that . . .
dy'a mean one of these?


Randall
in Alabama
Jono
Were you shooting under high-pressure sodium vapor lighting? These
and other types of gaseous discharge lights emit distorted, narrow
spectrums of pink, orange or blue that are practically impossible
to correct for in photographs.

Rich {C2020z, C2100uz, C3030z, HP970C}
I had some major problems getting a white balance with outdoor
night shots on my E-10. I tried every white balance setting,
including auto and manual, but the strong street lights caused the
snow to turn yellow at every color temperature setting. I haven't
fiddled much with the WB settings previously, but it seems there
are circumstances when you just won't be able to get it right.

Here are the versions, one corrected (with much difficulty) in
Photoshop, and its just barely passable:
http://members2.clubphoto.com/joe203619/Yellow_Snow/

Anyone know of a way around this white balance problem?

Joe Hawblitzel
Hi,

I think you were asking the camera to record white snow when it was
not white. Nighttime, early morning, mid day, and at sunset all
will have different of snow.
As a portrait photography I only shot outdoors in the early
mornings or late atfernoon the light is much better not only the
color but the quality. Our mind will change what our we see to
what it "should" look like. Cameras can not do this.
Film is even more subject to the light color then digital. That is
way most portrait photographers have no problem with the top speed
shutter of 1/640 we are not going to be shooting in noon sun.
 
hahahahahahahaha

Sounds like you should have bought the E-100 LOL, RAPID FIRE!

Kids, Gotta Love em :-)
Why!

and as for the kittens - we have some, and they keep crapping behind the boss's desk!
Randall
in Alabama
Jono
Were you shooting under high-pressure sodium vapor lighting? These
and other types of gaseous discharge lights emit distorted, narrow
spectrums of pink, orange or blue that are practically impossible
to correct for in photographs.

Rich {C2020z, C2100uz, C3030z, HP970C}
I had some major problems getting a white balance with outdoor
night shots on my E-10. I tried every white balance setting,
including auto and manual, but the strong street lights caused the
snow to turn yellow at every color temperature setting. I haven't
fiddled much with the WB settings previously, but it seems there
are circumstances when you just won't be able to get it right.

Here are the versions, one corrected (with much difficulty) in
Photoshop, and its just barely passable:
http://members2.clubphoto.com/joe203619/Yellow_Snow/

Anyone know of a way around this white balance problem?

Joe Hawblitzel
Hi,

I think you were asking the camera to record white snow when it was
not white. Nighttime, early morning, mid day, and at sunset all
will have different of snow.
As a portrait photography I only shot outdoors in the early
mornings or late atfernoon the light is much better not only the
color but the quality. Our mind will change what our we see to
what it "should" look like. Cameras can not do this.
Film is even more subject to the light color then digital. That is
way most portrait photographers have no problem with the top speed
shutter of 1/640 we are not going to be shooting in noon sun.
 
Hi All,

I am also a E-10 perspective owner and have played with it in the store. To me this looks to be the camera of the year.

The WB issue is interesting, if it is an issue.

I have an Epson 3000z with the same type of maual WB. All I can say is it works great. I have used everything from white cards to white sweaters. The output does not need touchups by software. Can this be true for the E-10

Also in this thread was the first I heard about the possible limitations of the 650 speed. Any comments.

I must say that I visit the Kodak and Epson forums. I have looked at Cannon and Nikon. I find this forum great and feel I will be makeing a very informed discision when buying the e-10.

dave long
I've played with the E-10 in a camera store. Didn't want to put it
down. Only a matter or time now.

Garry
Sorry for being unclear. I pointed it at the snow which was fresh
and very white. It gave me a "good" reading. According to the
manual you can use any white surface for Quick Reference White
balance. I think the previous response by Rich indicates these
street lights pretty much destroy any possible color balance. My
only wonder now is why did I get a lock (good) when I tried to use
the snow for WB. Anyway, Garry, this is a great camera and I would
encourage you to continue investigating it. Of the four digital
cameras I've owned this is the only one that feels like the real
thing.

Joe Hawblitzel
 
The minimum possible exposure for the E-10 is 1/640s @ f/11 (ISO 80). This is a full 2 stops under the "Sunny f/16" rule. If you were contemplating recording a thermonuclear blast, you could always add a polarizer or an ND filter!!! (Sorry for the sarchasm, but it makes me laugh every time I hear this issue raised.)

Rich {C2020z, C2100uz, C3030z, HP970C}
David T. Long wrote:
...snipped...

Also in this thread was the first I heard about the possible
limitations of the 650 speed. Any comments.

...snipped...
dave long
 
There are a couple of ways of going about this:

1) Rely on the in-camera WB (using a white card).
2) Rely on Photoshop or similar as a post process.
3) Utilise an FL- filter from the likes of B+W etc to correct the
cast - you would need to ascertain the colour temp of the lights in
situ (rated in Kelvin) to assess which rating of FL- filter to use
(normally a number after the dash).
Or mixtures of all three!

Having done this, of course you will find that whichever 'lighting
setup' you decide upon will have to be taken into account.
Flash based would be best - taking an average class size here in
the UK as 25, I would suggest 2 heads to start, one as the main (or
'key') light, one as a fill-in (perhaps at 25% output), with a
guide number of at least 45. Softening the main light with a
softbox would be good. Most modern two-head packages are fairly
portable; everything folds away. If you are in the UK Jessops
own-brand flash units aren't at all bad on a budget, otherwise
Elinchrom would be my recommendation.
This would also in most cases negate the need for the FL filter.

Tungsten lighting is another, cheaper option. But you would then be
adding another non-daylight rated colur temp source - with the
flourescents as well it now gets tricky!

There are also daylight rated flourescent lighting heads - constant
light source, run cool etc...but can be expensive. DIY would be an
option with a qualified electrician on hand - the ballasts are also
hard to get hold of.

So, no quick fix. But then, that's photography - regardless of the
medium!

No doubt you will get many contrdictionary inputs - but that's the
strength of these forums. Between all of us there is a huge fund of
knowledge and experience.

Hope this helped a bit!

(Er.....classroom sized photos??! Wot kinda printer YOU gonna be
using? LOL)

Regards

Simon
As a graphic design coordinator I will primarily use the E-10 or
other similar camera thatour school plans to purchase.
Most of the photos taken by our school photographer using a medium
format camera in
classrooms with fourescent lighting have produced significant green
cast and dark
transparencies. Has anyone used the E-10 in similar circumstances?
Any suggestions
on camera settings. Also I need specifics on lighting set ups that
are especially portable and produce well lit digital photos (up to
classroom size) with no visible hot spots or significant light drop
off?
Thank you and the other people that responded to my question.
I am new to the forum scene and am learning how to use it. Took me a while to locate these responses. Thanks agian and I am sure to have more questions.
 

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