The new MFT sensor

Interceptor121 · Jan 27, 2022

Panasonic has announced the GH6 has 5.7K video so unlikely to use the 20.3 sensor on catalog

OM Systems maybe as the sensor as phase difference pixels on chip. However so far they lacked the hardware to process 60 fps video and no AF is present higher than 18 fps so would require additional processing power in the pipeline

I am not sure 125 fps will be a great benefit to still shooters but could increase the burst rates to the limit the buffer and card can manage perhaps getting to 30fps with autofocus and for sure processing VFR video at 120 fps

Adam-T · Jan 27, 2022

Gnine said:
why is everyone ignoring the fact that Panasonic will be releasing the GH6 within the next month or two, and it will have a new sensor in it?

People do ignore Panasonic around here, they`d rather hang on to some Vapourware "WOW" camera from "Olympus" (they also seem to ignore that Olympus pulled out of the camera industry a while back) ..

The GH6 will show what's to come I`m sure .

Simon97 · Jan 27, 2022

Sony wouldn't develop an expensive sensor to no market. I'd think they were in talks with Panasonic & OMS about the IMX472 before it was made public. It is a stacked BSI design that can read the entire sensor at 121 times a second which is 2x the speed of the fastest 20mp sensor in current mft cameras. Based on the video specs leaked on the GH6, it seems likely the sensor will be in that camera. It would be a mistake for OMS not to use it or something similar (with pdaf) in their next flagship. I doubt we will see a better sensor in lower cost cameras anytime soon due to the cost of stacked sensors.

kamerakiri · Jan 27, 2022

Interceptor121 said:
Panasonic has announced the GH6 has 5.7K video so unlikely to use the 20.3 sensor on catalog

OM Systems maybe as the sensor as phase difference pixels on chip. However so far they lacked the hardware to process 60 fps video and no AF is present higher than 18 fps so would require additional processing power in the pipeline

I am not sure 125 fps will be a great benefit to still shooters but could increase the burst rates to the limit the buffer and card can manage perhaps getting to 30fps with autofocus and for sure processing VFR video at 120 fps

I hope GH6 has true 5.7K.

Though Panasonic can always pull a "anamorphic mode" 5.7K video from 20 Mp sensor.

Richandhiscat · Jan 27, 2022

Simon97 said:
Sony wouldn't develop an expensive sensor to no market. I'd think they were in talks with Panasonic & OMS about the IMX472 before it was made public. It is a stacked BSI design that can read the entire sensor at 121 times a second which is 2x the speed of the fastest 20mp sensor in current mft cameras. Based on the video specs leaked on the GH6, it seems likely the sensor will be in that camera. It would be a mistake for OMS not to use it or something similar (with pdaf) in their next flagship. I doubt we will see a better sensor in lower cost cameras anytime soon due to the cost of stacked sensors.

I'm not sure, but I would imagine that DJI is using it in the Mavic Pro 3 - the release of that model ties in with the announcement of the sensor. The market for that drone is probably larger than the camera market.

techie takes pics · Jan 27, 2022

Of course Olympus cameras was taken over. But in the past they kept a pretty tight lid on what they wanted to inform the public about.

Remember, there is real money at stake. If they think the new camera will take sales away from existing ones, they will try to sell off existing stock.

Jonas Palm · Jan 27, 2022

Simon97 said:
Sony wouldn't develop an expensive sensor to no market. I'd think they were in talks with Panasonic & OMS about the IMX472 before it was made public. It is a stacked BSI design that can read the entire sensor at 121 times a second which is 2x the speed of the fastest 20mp sensor in current mft cameras. Based on the video specs leaked on the GH6, it seems likely the sensor will be in that camera.

The resolution of the IMX472 is only 5324x3956 though, which doesn’t jive with the 5.7k video spec. Indeed, the norm rather seems to be to have at least somewhat higher sensor resolution than video resolution for instance to allow for electronic stabilisation (which is quite useful).

It’s not impossible that the 5.7k is an upscaled resolution but as it is a resolution that in most cases would be used to produce better source material for eventual 4k output it would be quite strange. They might as well upscale to 8k and claim that instead.

My money is on the GH6 not using the IMX472.

Jonas Palm · Jan 27, 2022

techie takes pics said:
Of course Olympus cameras was taken over. But in the past they kept a pretty tight lid on what they wanted to inform the public about.

Remember, there is real money at stake. If they think the new camera will take sales away from existing ones, they will try to sell off existing stock.

That makes no sense. The only sales it would take away would be those that would buy their new high-end camera instead! Whereas not saying anything makes those itching for a new camera only have their old stuff - and of course, the new stuff from their competitors to choose from.

Interceptor121 · Jan 27, 2022

kamerakiri said:
Interceptor121 said:

Panasonic has announced the GH6 has 5.7K video so unlikely to use the 20.3 sensor on catalog

OM Systems maybe as the sensor as phase difference pixels on chip. However so far they lacked the hardware to process 60 fps video and no AF is present higher than 18 fps so would require additional processing power in the pipeline

I am not sure 125 fps will be a great benefit to still shooters but could increase the burst rates to the limit the buffer and card can manage perhaps getting to 30fps with autofocus and for sure processing VFR video at 120 fps

Click to expand...

I hope GH6 has true 5.7K.

Though Panasonic can always pull a "anamorphic mode" 5.7K video from 20 Mp sensor.

Not possible it can only do 5K as max resolution is 5184 pixels

techie takes pics · Jan 27, 2022

Jonas Palm said:
techie takes pics said:

Of course Olympus cameras was taken over. But in the past they kept a pretty tight lid on what they wanted to inform the public about.

Remember, there is real money at stake. If they think the new camera will take sales away from existing ones, they will try to sell off existing stock.

Click to expand...

That makes no sense. The only sales it would take away would be those that would buy their new high-end camera instead! Whereas not saying anything makes those itching for a new camera only have their old stuff - and of course, the new stuff from their competitors to choose from.

If you had 1000 pieces of product version 1 in your shop and version 2 was about to come out, would you not try to get rid of the supply of 1 as much as you can?

First, you can still get a reasonable price because there is no 2 model right beside it.

Second, the 2 will sell immediately to those who have been yearning for it anyway, and sales will slow down to a 'regular' level after that.

As soon as the 2 hits the shelves, the sales of the 1 will slow down to a trickle and you will probably have to discount it to get rid of the last ones.

You will have years to sell the 2 model, but only a finite time you can still sell the leftover 1 models.

Jonas Palm · Jan 27, 2022

techie takes pics said:
Jonas Palm said:

techie takes pics said:

Of course Olympus cameras was taken over. But in the past they kept a pretty tight lid on what they wanted to inform the public about.

Remember, there is real money at stake. If they think the new camera will take sales away from existing ones, they will try to sell off existing stock.

Click to expand...

That makes no sense. The only sales it would take away would be those that would buy their new high-end camera instead! Whereas not saying anything makes those itching for a new camera only have their old stuff - and of course, the new stuff from their competitors to choose from.

Click to expand...

If you had 1000 pieces of product 1.0 in your shop and 2.0 was about to come out, would you not try to get rid of the supply of 1.0 as much as you can?

First, you can still ask a reasonable price because there is no 2.0 model right beside it.

Second, the 2.0 will sell immediately to those who have been yearning for it anyway, and sales will slow down to 'regular' sales after that.

As soon as the 2.0 hits the shelves, the sales of the 1.0 will slow down to a trickle and you will probably have to discount it to get rid of the last ones.

You will have years to sell the 2.0 model, but only a finite time you can still sell the 1.0 model.

This is true (under the conditions you set up).
There is a flip side of that coin though (actually more than one).
A - the people who you steered to buy a GH5-II are likely sales lost to the GH6. You lost your opportunity of an upsell, as well as the likely higher margin of the newer product.
B - until you actually launch the new model, you’re trying to sell your old product vs.newer products from your competitors. Chances are that some/many of those that you hoped would by your old stuff instead buy more attractive products from your competitors. And that is Really Bad.

The inclination of your customers to desert you is of course increased if there are doubts as to where the brand is headed. Both Panasonic, who launched a FF line of products casting doubts on where they would go with their m43 line, and of course Olympus divesting their camera division has created such problems.

If your old models aren’t moving off dealer shelves, it may be because your customers are buying someone elses, not that they are patiently waiting for an opportunity to buy your upgraded (how?) model in some uncertain future.

paolop23 · Jan 28, 2022

ahaslett said:
paolop23 said:

Joe Lynch said:

Yes, I watched a bunch of videos of folks using the large bodies and lenses and not making a big deal about the size or weight, especially of the lenses. But, since I rented first, I knew what I was getting in to, and my new FF gear will have its uses, but it won't displace the m43 gear, that's all. I won't be traveling or hiking with the Sony/Tamron.

Click to expand...

that Sony A1+ Tamron 35-150f2-2.8 setup is pretty extreme though.

I think it will easily outperform even a very expensive complete Oly PRO prime kit (17f1.2, 25f1.2, 45f1.2, 75f1.8)
So theres quite some room to downscale body + lens to save money, size and weight.

Click to expand...

Look at Joe’s gear list!

Andrew

He owns the largest and heaviest superteles for m43 but complains about size and weight of one of the single most extreme event setup a photographer can buy today.

Joe Lynch said:
I have had a full frame camera for the first time for a few weeks now and so far the biggest effect it has had on me is to increase my appreciation of the weight, size, image quality, IS, and feel of my Olympus m43 bodies and lenses.

...Sony A1 and Tamron 35-150f2-2.8...

It is a great combination, just large and heavy. I'm 73 and healthy, but apparently I'm spoiled by the m43 gear

The A1 and Tamron 35-150f2-2.8 is completely unmatched in specs (17-75f1-1.4). I'm just trying to say, if he does not want to carry the bulk+weight theres plenty of smaller/lighter/slower options available in the FF arena that might do the job. Its not like we should expect something like a Tamron 28-200f2.8-5.6 to perform worse indoors on the A1 than the constant f2.8 lenses we have available for m43.

ahaslett · Jan 28, 2022

paolop23 said:
ahaslett said:

paolop23 said:

Joe Lynch said:

Yes, I watched a bunch of videos of folks using the large bodies and lenses and not making a big deal about the size or weight, especially of the lenses. But, since I rented first, I knew what I was getting in to, and my new FF gear will have its uses, but it won't displace the m43 gear, that's all. I won't be traveling or hiking with the Sony/Tamron.

Click to expand...

that Sony A1+ Tamron 35-150f2-2.8 setup is pretty extreme though.

I think it will easily outperform even a very expensive complete Oly PRO prime kit (17f1.2, 25f1.2, 45f1.2, 75f1.8)
So theres quite some room to downscale body + lens to save money, size and weight.

Click to expand...

Look at Joe’s gear list!

Andrew

Click to expand...

He owns the largest and heaviest superteles for m43 but complains about size and weight of one of the single most extreme event setup a photographer can buy today.

Joe Lynch said:

I have had a full frame camera for the first time for a few weeks now and so far the biggest effect it has had on me is to increase my appreciation of the weight, size, image quality, IS, and feel of my Olympus m43 bodies and lenses.

...Sony A1 and Tamron 35-150f2-2.8...

It is a great combination, just large and heavy. I'm 73 and healthy, but apparently I'm spoiled by the m43 gear

Click to expand...

The A1 and Tamron 35-150f2-2.8 is completely unmatched in specs (17-75f1-1.4). I'm just trying to say, if he does not want to carry the bulk+weight theres plenty of smaller/lighter/slower options available in the FF arena that might do the job. Its not like we should expect something like a Tamron 28-200f2.8-5.6 to perform worse indoors on the A1 than the constant f2.8 lenses we have available for m43.

I just meant that he’s not worried about cost.

Andrew

paolop23 · Jan 28, 2022

ahaslett said:
paolop23 said:

ahaslett said:

paolop23 said:

Joe Lynch said:

Yes, I watched a bunch of videos of folks using the large bodies and lenses and not making a big deal about the size or weight, especially of the lenses. But, since I rented first, I knew what I was getting in to, and my new FF gear will have its uses, but it won't displace the m43 gear, that's all. I won't be traveling or hiking with the Sony/Tamron.

Click to expand...

that Sony A1+ Tamron 35-150f2-2.8 setup is pretty extreme though.

I think it will easily outperform even a very expensive complete Oly PRO prime kit (17f1.2, 25f1.2, 45f1.2, 75f1.8)
So theres quite some room to downscale body + lens to save money, size and weight.

Click to expand...

Look at Joe’s gear list!

Andrew

Click to expand...

He owns the largest and heaviest superteles for m43 but complains about size and weight of one of the single most extreme event setup a photographer can buy today.

Joe Lynch said:

I have had a full frame camera for the first time for a few weeks now and so far the biggest effect it has had on me is to increase my appreciation of the weight, size, image quality, IS, and feel of my Olympus m43 bodies and lenses.

...Sony A1 and Tamron 35-150f2-2.8...

It is a great combination, just large and heavy. I'm 73 and healthy, but apparently I'm spoiled by the m43 gear

Click to expand...

The A1 and Tamron 35-150f2-2.8 is completely unmatched in specs (17-75f1-1.4). I'm just trying to say, if he does not want to carry the bulk+weight theres plenty of smaller/lighter/slower options available in the FF arena that might do the job. Its not like we should expect something like a Tamron 28-200f2.8-5.6 to perform worse indoors on the A1 than the constant f2.8 lenses we have available for m43.

Click to expand...

I just meant that he’s not worried about cost.

Andrew

yeah, by that logic, he should totally buy a bugatti veyron to go buy groceries.

Joe Lynch · Jan 28, 2022

I wasn't complaining at all, more like comparing. And I carry the gear around in a 21 year old Ford pickup.

Peadingle · Jan 28, 2022

Just a thought, but if they did make an M43 sensor that gave us the image quality of FF, what would be the point of anybody buying FF (other than brand loyalty or a big collection of lenses)?

Raist3d · Jan 28, 2022

Peadingle said:
Just a thought, but if they did make an M43 sensor that gave us the image quality of FF, what would be the point of anybody buying FF (other than brand loyalty or a big collection of lenses)?

If that happened that means that the same technologies would apply to APSC and FF keeping the relative advantages of those systems. And you bet it being a Sony sensor, Sony would definitively matter to its own APSC / FF and customers too (particularly with bigger markets). Yes?

Oh there's also more DOF control anyway. Of course you trade that off with size, but tradeoffs are in all systems.

But what you are saying won't happen anyway with this sensor, so it's a moot point

paolop23 · Jan 28, 2022

Joe Lynch said:
I wasn't complaining at all, more like comparing. And I carry the gear around in a 21 year old Ford pickup.

So to what 50MP 30fps RAW M43 body and 17-75f1-1.4 lens did you compare to exactly?

Its like comparing apples and to 14K gold coated wagu beef oranges and then complaining the orange feels heavy.

Theres no free lunch is all i want to say.

Centainly m43 offers tele options that are unmatchted by the FF lineup in terms of usability, but in the 35-150mm range i don't see any advantages over FF in neither size/weight/price let alone IQ performance.

tedolf · Jan 28, 2022

Peadingle said:
Just a thought, but if they did make an M43 sensor that gave us the image quality of FF, what would be the point of anybody buying FF (other than brand loyalty or a big collection of lenses)?

Depth of field profile.

Image quality is already better than anyone needs.

Resolution already exceeds resolution of output media and human acuity.

Tedolph

gary0319 · Jan 28, 2022

Raist3d said:
Peadingle said:

Just a thought, but if they did make an M43 sensor that gave us the image quality of FF, what would be the point of anybody buying FF (other than brand loyalty or a big collection of lenses)?

Click to expand...

If that happened that means that the same technologies would apply to APSC and FF keeping the relative advantages of those systems. And you bet it being a Sony sensor, Sony would definitively matter to its own APSC / FF and customers too (particularly with bigger markets). Yes?

Oh there's also more DOF control anyway. Of course you trade that off with size, but tradeoffs are in all systems.

But what you are saying won't happen anyway with this sensor, so it's a moot point

I’m way less concerned about the competitive advantage or lack thereof when compared to the full frame offerings of Sony, Nikon or Canon than I am interested in what a new BSI stacked m4/3 sensor might mean to me. I have absolutely no desire for a full frame camera.

If the new camera has advances in computational or other features that pertain to my use case, I’ll be on the preorder list.

The new MFT sensor

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