10 bit video for occasional videographers? What's your workflow?

I just got an A7IV that I use mostly for family and travel photography. However, on 5-10 occasions per year (birthdays, holidays, family vacations, etc) I'll record and edit a short video summarizing the event. I care about how these videos look, but of course I know I'm not making cinema (for example, I'm too lazy to mess around with a variable ND to follow the 180 degree shutter rule). My new A7IV gives the option of recording 10 bit, and I need help deciding whether it's worth it.

What I'm considering:

• I've been using the free version of DaVinci Resolve, but I'd need to upgrade to the full version ($295) to edit 10 bit video. This seems like a large expense for how little video I shoot.
• My Intel Macbook struggles to smoothly play 10 bit 4:2:2 video, so I'd probably have to use proxies. This doesn't seem so bad (the A7IV can automatically record them), but lots of people seem to dislike using proxies.
• Even if I'm delivering in 8 bit for now (I currently upload the videos privately to Youtube so family and friends can watch), it could be nice to go back and re-edit a highlight reel in HDR when more delivery systems can handle it.
• Dynamic range is important to me, and while I don't think 10 bit would give me meaningfully more dynamic range in S-Cinetone (instead it would give me more gradations between the brightest and darkest tones), 10 bit would enable me to use S-Log3 and get more dynamic range that way. But then I'd have to learn to grade, and I'm happy with S-Cinetone SOOC.

Should I:

• Bite the bullet, buy DaVinci Studio, and do everything in 10 bit (perhaps with proxies)?
• Record in 10 bit for future proofing, but convert to 8 bit (with ffmpeg, HandBrake, or Catalyst Browse) for editing right now?
• Stick with 8 bit?
• Do something else?

samcd said:

I just got an A7IV that I use mostly for family and travel photography. However, on 5-10 occasions per year (birthdays, holidays, family vacations, etc) I'll record and edit a short video summarizing the event. I care about how these videos look, but of course I know I'm not making cinema (for example, I'm too lazy to mess around with a variable ND to follow the 180 degree shutter rule). My new A7IV gives the option of recording 10 bit, and I need help deciding whether it's worth it.

What I'm considering:

• I've been using the free version of DaVinci Resolve, but I'd need to upgrade to the full version ($295) to edit 10 bit video. This seems like a large expense for how little video I shoot.
• My Intel Macbook struggles to smoothly play 10 bit 4:2:2 video, so I'd probably have to use proxies. This doesn't seem so bad (the A7IV can automatically record them), but lots of people seem to dislike using proxies.
• Even if I'm delivering in 8 bit for now (I currently upload the videos privately to Youtube so family and friends can watch), it could be nice to go back and re-edit a highlight reel in HDR when more delivery systems can handle it.
• Dynamic range is important to me, and while I don't think 10 bit would give me meaningfully more dynamic range in S-Cinetone (instead it would give me more gradations between the brightest and darkest tones), 10 bit would enable me to use S-Log3 and get more dynamic range that way. But then I'd have to learn to grade, and I'm happy with S-Cinetone SOOC.

Should I:

• Bite the bullet, buy DaVinci Studio, and do everything in 10 bit (perhaps with proxies)?
• Record in 10 bit for future proofing, but convert to 8 bit (with ffmpeg, HandBrake, or Catalyst Browse) for editing right now?
• Stick with 8 bit?
• Do something else?

Click to expand...

Your post indicates you are very well informed about video. Basically, if you want to maximize dynamic range, you want to use the log profiles. And, if you do that, then 10bit is important (as you say). You need to edit in 10bit in that case. And, high dynamic range settings are conducive to HDR video, which uses all that range. OTOH, in a shoot with little dynamic range (cloudy day), there will not be much difference between well-exposed 8bit nonlog and 10bit log graded. If you are happy with S Cinetone, which is a Picture Profile for NOT grading, then 8bit should be ok. But no going from S Cinetone (8bit or 10bit) to HDR.

If you shoot in 10bit 422 and your computer cannot handle that in any editor (or even play it), then you want to use proxies in the editor and NOT convert to 8bit in one program and then edit in another. That would involve doubling the compression steps. And compression is the enemy of quality. As you know, the camera will automatically give you proxies, making it easy to work with them (save a step).

You have enough knowledge that I do not see your needing advice on what to do.

Btw, if you ignore the 180-rule, then if you shoot using 60 fps the damage to the depiction of movement (smoothly) will be minimal.

samcd said:

I just got an A7IV that I use mostly for family and travel photography. However, on 5-10 occasions per year (birthdays, holidays, family vacations, etc) I'll record and edit a short video summarizing the event. I care about how these videos look, but of course I know I'm not making cinema (for example, I'm too lazy to mess around with a variable ND to follow the 180 degree shutter rule). My new A7IV gives the option of recording 10 bit, and I need help deciding whether it's worth it.

What I'm considering:

• I've been using the free version of DaVinci Resolve, but I'd need to upgrade to the full version ($295) to edit 10 bit video. This seems like a large expense for how little video I shoot.
• My Intel Macbook struggles to smoothly play 10 bit 4:2:2 video, so I'd probably have to use proxies. This doesn't seem so bad (the A7IV can automatically record them), but lots of people seem to dislike using proxies.
• Even if I'm delivering in 8 bit for now (I currently upload the videos privately to Youtube so family and friends can watch), it could be nice to go back and re-edit a highlight reel in HDR when more delivery systems can handle it.
• Dynamic range is important to me, and while I don't think 10 bit would give me meaningfully more dynamic range in S-Cinetone (instead it would give me more gradations between the brightest and darkest tones), 10 bit would enable me to use S-Log3 and get more dynamic range that way. But then I'd have to learn to grade, and I'm happy with S-Cinetone SOOC.

Should I:

• Bite the bullet, buy DaVinci Studio, and do everything in 10 bit (perhaps with proxies)?
• Record in 10 bit for future proofing, but convert to 8 bit (with ffmpeg, HandBrake, or Catalyst Browse) for editing right now?
• Stick with 8 bit?
• Do something else?

Click to expand...

If you only do video infrequently and you're happy with the results, I'd stick with what you're getting SOOC.

It'd be similar to shooting jpeg vs raw if you only wanted snapshots/didn't want to edit. If you can get the jpegs to look how you want them, there's no reason to learn to edit raw and go through that workflow. You will always be able to get more out of a raw, but at the cost of time and efficiency, so it becomes a personal preference.

The same can be said for video. I started shooting clog but eventually switched to RAW video in my canon because I found it gave me the most latitude in editing. Learning to grade and edit video took about a week of watching youtube videos and playing around in premiere. RAW video/log video does give you more room for editing, but it's not quite the same as RAW vs jpeg photos (you can't stretch video as much as you can a photo with your edits).

If you do go 10 bit and learn to edit, I would definitely use proxies. Idk about davinci, but I'm guessing it's the same as with premiere. I would use your computer to create the proxies instead of the in camera proxies. The in camera proxies (someone correct me if I'm wrong) I think are more for backup and aren't as easy to edit as if you create proxies using your software. Once I create proxies I use them to edit the video/transitions/etc, then when I'm color grading, I find a frame and toggle the proxies off so I can see the full resolution video with the edits instead of a lower resolution version. Turning proxies on and off is just a click of a button, so it's very quick/easy to do.

The free version of Resolve supports 10-bit, but it might not support the particular flavor of XAVC that you're using.

You could use ffmpeg to transcode to 10-bit Prores, Cineform, or DNxHR, and solve your editing and playback issue in one shot, but you will have larger file sizes.

Andrew S10 said:

The free version of Resolve supports 10-bit, but it might not support the particular flavor of XAVC that you're using.

You could use ffmpeg to transcode to 10-bit Prores, Cineform, or DNxHR, and solve your editing and playback issue in one shot, but you will have larger file sizes.

Click to expand...

Very good to know, thank you!

I'm a huge FOSS afficionado (my stills workflow is RawTherapee), and I do far more stills than video - but in terms of how many headaches Resolve Studio has already saved me, it's one of the few cases where I will strongly recommend the cost expenditure.

(It's an even better deal if you find a piece of Blackmagic hardware you want that happens to have a Studio license bundled - back when I bought it, I basically got a free Speed Editor. I still don't use the SE much, but it was nice to get it effectively free. Unfortunately the basic SE+Resolve bundle is now $400 so it's not "buy one product get the other free" any more.

I'm actually planning on sticking with 4:2:0 for the time being on my A7M4 because 4:2:0 10-bit is a massive improvement over anything 8, and 4:2:2 hardware support is now 2-3 years away for me. (I was forced to replace a laptop earlier than planned and don't plan to upgrade again for at least 2-3 years.)

Resolve free version definitely supports 10bit. I think it is the frame rate that is not supported, or maybe the codec, you can try the different options in your camera to find a combination that resolve likes.

For your requirements I'd suggest 4:2:0 (supported by gfx card acceleration) 10bit h264 (again acceleration) using picture profile 11 aka s-cinetone.

4:2:2 has basically no real impact unless you're trying to key your footage, e.g. green screen, but only the newest cards or computers have acceleration for it. Opting for 4:2:0 is a fine compromise.

For dynamic range slog3 is better and you don't have to learn how to grade really. Either use resolve colour management, it has slog3 as input profile. Or use Sony's rec709 lut. However correct exposure and white balance is important with slog3 (or any log recording) learning how to do that is an effort.

Blackmagic released video tutorials recently for resolve 17, check out the colour management episode it shows how to use it and the theory behind. It boils down to setting two drop-down menus and you are set for slog3

Sometimes people will buy several Blackmagic cameras and sell the spare license key, so that's an option, but be careful of scammers.

Andrew S10 said:

Sometimes people will buy several Blackmagic cameras and sell the spare license key, so that's an option, but be careful of scammers.

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Yeah. If I ever bought a BM camera (I probably WOULD have bought a BMPCC 6k if not for the fact that by the time it released, I'd migrated enough of my lenses from adapted EF to Sony-native), I'd sell the license to a friend.

I'm not sure how I'd do it for a random stranger on the Internet... Too many trust issues!

A valid concern, but if you run across someone who's been an active forum member for 10 years, they're probably not going to cheap you, unless someone hacked their account and is trying to scam people with it.

For your audience, it is NO difference.

You could use your iPhone and they will still enjoy seeing you.

The latest and newest technology is for video that contains a lot of action and color grading requirement. I don't think your birthday video requires any.

Some different thoughts.

If you occasionally try and do better it'll be harder than always doing it. You'll lack the muscle memory. Either always go all the way or just accept what you find good enough most of the time.

The other thing is if turning a VND is too much effort the odds you'll spend time colour grading or learning the more complicated bits of Resolve seem low.

BTW the point of in camera proxies is so you can start editing right away . Having a slow computer generate those proxies will slow you down. But even using proxies requires you learn the workflow.

NickZ2016 said:

The other thing is if turning a VND is too much effort the odds you'll spend time colour grading or learning the more complicated bits of Resolve seem low.

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Fair, though the problem is really how a VND clashes with photography. Having enough ND to get down to 1/50th means I'm always shooting photos at least a few stops above base iso or having to remove the ND every time I switch to photos (which is often). I'll choose cleaner, higher DR photos over smooth video motion or potentially missing the shot (though I wish I didn't have to choose!)

I'm actually somewhat interested in learning color grading because of the little bits of the science of color I've learned from photography. Now that I know DaVinci supports 10 bit video in the free version I'm excited to play with log footage.

The main achievement of 10-bit video is to learn what color grading or dynamic range editing can or cannot achieve, plus the work and time that requires. Sometimes it may be worth the trouble. Most of the time, not.

Think about it. An event occurs at late afternoon. The sky is bright. The foreground is getting dark. The people are backlit. Good audio is handicapped by distances and abundant distracting noises. People and objects block your view of key actions. People with phones barge in front of everyone, get the money shots, and stream instantly. To shoot in 10-bit, versus 8-bit, can hardly matter.

Casual hobbyists can seldom control their lighting conditions and the "talent" (relatives Billy Bob and Wilma Jean) may be homely, prone to stutter, or unwilling to pose or stage an event in a way that will yield anything cinematic. These days, if the celebrant blows out the birthday candles, viewers may cringe at the thought of viruses. It is almost impossible for an amateur to obtain quality footage of a sports event with a single camera at the sidelines or in the bleachers. People at a wedding reception may balk if a videographer suggests that the venue lighting be raised a notch or that the lights not be all pink or blue.

Audio and stabilization are two principal hurdles for casual video. Subject material and brevity are also key elements. Turnaround and sharing matter too. No one will care to see a video about what happened yesterday or last week. The audience will be most drawn to what the people disseminated by phone about what happened 10 minutes ago and will all but forget 10 minutes later.

In terms of convenience, built-in AI, and quick sharing, it is difficult to surpass what can be shot with a phone.

As was suggested, an iPhone might be all you really need.

But if you're looking for better results than a smartphone can deliver, try shooting H.264 10-bit 4:2:0 with S-Cinetone is my recommendation -- most modest Intel processors can handle that and 4:2:2 is overkill unless you want to do deep-dive grading. Forget Davinci Resolve -- way to complicated for casual use IMO. iMovie should be fine, though I prefer FCP.

I'm using Shutter Encoder to convert 10 bit H.264 to Apple Prores 422 HQ (shooting 4:2:2 V-log), including De-Noise before going to Davinci Free (as Noise Reduction requires the Studio Version).

Editing is done on a Macbook Air M1 base version, works perfectly fine (better than my Ryzen 5600X / GTX 1060 desktop)

ProRes 422 is 10 bit and is supported by the free version of Resolve, it's only 10-bit H.264 and H.265 that require the studio version.

Takes more space though.

For out-of-camera (no V-LOG) I keep everything to 8 bit h.264.