Z9 momentum

New FW for Z5/Z6/Z7 makes me think that Nikon wants to build on the Z9 momentum, and reverse the negative image that has built during the last few years

1) First introduce the Z9, and show the world that they can release the best ML camera on the market, or at least a camera that equals the best Sony/Canon ML cameras.

Also a way to demonstrate the doomsayers that Nikon is not only well and alive, but can also bring game changing innovations and take the lead in various aspects

2) Address some of the problems that were mostly reported by the YTubers, and that were used to develop a “bad AF performer” image : increase the performance of the overlay that comes with eye focus, for the first generation of Zx cameras. Also a good way to show that Nikon cares about its customers

3) Release in a few weeks a v2.0 of its FW for ZxII cameras; this firmware could be a trimmed down version of the Z9 FW, and bring some more advanced AF features, while taking full advantage of the 2 Expeed6 processors .

All in all , I think that what we are seeing now is part of a global initiative to restore Nikon’s image on the market, so that they could be seen as a ML leader, and not a doomed follower

cna said:

New FW for Z5/Z6/Z7 makes me think that Nikon wants to build on the Z9 momentum, and reverse the negative image that has built during the last few years

1) First introduce the Z9, and show the world that they can release the best ML camera on the market, or at least a camera that equals the best Sony/Canon ML cameras.

Also a way to demonstrate the doomsayers that Nikon is not only well and alive, but can also bring game changing innovations and take the lead in various aspects

2) Address some of the problems that were mostly reported by the YTubers, and that were used to develop a “bad AF performer” image : increase the performance of the overlay that comes with eye focus, for the first generation of Zx cameras. Also a good way to show that Nikon cares about its customers

3) Release in a few weeks a v2.0 of its FW for ZxII cameras; this firmware could be a trimmed down version of the Z9 FW, and bring some more advanced AF features, while taking full advantage of the 2 Expeed6 processors .

All in all , I think that what we are seeing now is part of a global initiative to restore Nikon’s image on the market, so that they could be seen as a ML leader, and not a doomed follower

Click to expand...

I find it impressive that Nikon releases a significant AF improvement for the Z6/Z7 nearly 3 years after camera announcement.

I share your views.

I believe that the Z6II and Z7II firmwares will come after Z9 release though.

cna said:

3) Release in a few weeks a v2.0 of its FW for ZxII cameras; this firmware could be a trimmed down version of the Z9 FW, and bring some more advanced AF features, while taking full advantage of the 2 Expeed6 processors .

Click to expand...

I agree with 1 and 2, but I am skeptical about 3. The best I think we could hope for is slight improvements in performance of existing AF modes, but doubtful they will be able to add any more advanced features. The z9 AF seems to rely on a host of hardware and design improvements to provide those AF features.

But, I would have bet they would not bring out any significant improvements to the i series, and lost...

Marlin Roberts said:

cna said:

3) Release in a few weeks a v2.0 of its FW for ZxII cameras; this firmware could be a trimmed down version of the Z9 FW, and bring some more advanced AF features, while taking full advantage of the 2 Expeed6 processors .

Click to expand...

I agree with 1 and 2, but I am skeptical about 3. The best I think we could hope for is slight improvements in performance of existing AF modes, but doubtful they will be able to add any more advanced features. The z9 AF seems to rely on a host of hardware and design improvements to provide those AF features.

But, I would have bet they would not bring out any significant improvements to the i series, and lost...

Click to expand...

Of course you will never get the Z9 AF performance from a Z6/7II; as you say, there are too many hardware differences (stacked sensor with fast readout + Expeed7) .

However I'm still convinced that the Z6II/7II does not make full usage of their dual CPU.

Now that we apparently have the same AF performance between Z6 & Z6II (with the new FW), it would be surprising to hear that the only added value of the second Expeed6 Soc, is to increase the buffer size

I may be wrong, but I think that Nikon has kept FW2.0 under its sleeve, waiting for the release of the Z9.

Even though I'm perfectly satisfied with the AF performance of my Z6/7II ( for my use cases) I would still welcome some improvements

I'm currently using 2 AF modes : eye tracking and dynamic AF (for complex situations). Beeing able to use eye tracking in more situations would certainly be welcomed.

cna said:

New FW for Z5/Z6/Z7 makes me think that Nikon wants to build on the Z9 momentum, and reverse the negative image that has built during the last few years

1) First introduce the Z9, and show the world that they can release the best ML camera on the market, or at least a camera that equals the best Sony/Canon ML cameras.

Also a way to demonstrate the doomsayers that Nikon is not only well and alive, but can also bring game changing innovations and take the lead in various aspects

2) Address some of the problems that were mostly reported by the YTubers, and that were used to develop a “bad AF performer” image : increase the performance of the overlay that comes with eye focus, for the first generation of Zx cameras. Also a good way to show that Nikon cares about its customers

3) Release in a few weeks a v2.0 of its FW for ZxII cameras; this firmware could be a trimmed down version of the Z9 FW, and bring some more advanced AF features, while taking full advantage of the 2 Expeed6 processors .

All in all , I think that what we are seeing now is part of a global initiative to restore Nikon’s image on the market, so that they could be seen as a ML leader, and not a doomed follower

Click to expand...

No matter what Nikon do Fro guy would say that they should have done it 2 years ago.

Marlin Roberts said:

cna said:

3) Release in a few weeks a v2.0 of its FW for ZxII cameras; this firmware could be a trimmed down version of the Z9 FW, and bring some more advanced AF features, while taking full advantage of the 2 Expeed6 processors .

Click to expand...

I agree with 1 and 2, but I am skeptical about 3. The best I think we could hope for is slight improvements in performance of existing AF modes, but doubtful they will be able to add any more advanced features. The z9 AF seems to rely on a host of hardware and design improvements to provide those AF features.

But, I would have bet they would not bring out any significant improvements to the i series, and lost...

Click to expand...

We don’t need AF tracking anywhere near the Z9 and it’s clearly not possible as they’ve stated given the processor is something like 12x faster than the ones in the gen II Z bodies.

The question is if they can improve these cameras to where you can more easily stay with someone moving towards the camera. Or more consistent eye tracking performance.

I don’t think people need the Z6 II/Z7 II to be sports cameras or anything like that, but the new Z6/Z7 update puts them more or less on par with the the cameras with TWO processors.

There’s lots of middle ground between the Z9 and the Z7 II.

cna said:

Marlin Roberts said:

cna said:

3) Release in a few weeks a v2.0 of its FW for ZxII cameras; this firmware could be a trimmed down version of the Z9 FW, and bring some more advanced AF features, while taking full advantage of the 2 Expeed6 processors .

Click to expand...

I agree with 1 and 2, but I am skeptical about 3. The best I think we could hope for is slight improvements in performance of existing AF modes, but doubtful they will be able to add any more advanced features. The z9 AF seems to rely on a host of hardware and design improvements to provide those AF features.

But, I would have bet they would not bring out any significant improvements to the i series, and lost...

Click to expand...

Of course you will never get the Z9 AF performance from a Z6/7II; as you say, there are too many hardware differences (stacked sensor with fast readout + Expeed7) .

However I'm still convinced that the Z6II/7II does not make full usage of their dual CPU.

Now that we apparently have the same AF performance between Z6 & Z6II (with the new FW), it would be surprising to hear that the only added value of the second Expeed6 Soc, is to increase the buffer size

I may be wrong, but I think that Nikon has kept FW2.0 under its sleeve, waiting for the release of the Z9.

Even though I'm perfectly satisfied with the AF performance of my Z6/7II ( for my use cases) I would still welcome some improvements

I'm currently using 2 AF modes : eye tracking and dynamic AF (for complex situations). Beeing able to use eye tracking in more situations would certainly be welcomed.

Click to expand...

Wide area with face tracking is much better than Dynamic Area. You should try it. Even when the eye box doesn’t come up, I’m getting eyes in focus.

I think an interesting question would be what sort of processor (power and performance) does Sony use in it's cameras (A7R, A9 etc) vs the new Nikon Expeed processor in the Z9 (or even the double processor in the MK II Z's), that has enabled them to have significantly better tracking performance than most of it's competitors for the last few years. I'm talking about way before the A1 was announced.

If Sony has been managing great AF-C tracking with processors that were 3 years old or more, then is it that Sony better manages the code in the firmware than Nikon, or have their processors always been next level compared to Nikon's ?

What I'm trying to say (very poorly), is that using an Intel VS AMD analogy, if the MKII Z's are running a Ryzen 5 and the Sony Intel I7's (with similar Raw performance to each other), how has Sony been able to get better AF-C performance other the last few years on similarly powerful processors, or have the Sony processors always been next generation ahead of Nikon ? I.e. do we need the latest and greatest processors to get even better performance (obviously not Z9 levels), or are the differences down to more efficient coding ?

--
Lets make pictures, not war........

Mattitude V1 said:

We don’t need AF tracking anywhere near the Z9 and it’s clearly not possible as they’ve stated given the processor is something like 12x faster than the ones in the gen II Z bodies.

The question is if they can improve these cameras to where you can more easily stay with someone moving towards the camera. Or more consistent eye tracking performance.

I don’t think people need the Z6 II/Z7 II to be sports cameras or anything like that, but the new Z6/Z7 update puts them more or less on par with the the cameras with TWO processors.

There’s lots of middle ground between the Z9 and the Z7 II.

Click to expand...

My response had to do more with "new features" than improving existing performance. Adding 3D tracking etc... I don't think we will see that level of update.

I don't disagree that there are probably marginal improvements to be made in the currently available modes, and remain hopeful we may see some.

I would be interested in someone comparing the updated cameras against their ii series counterpart to see if the performance is indeed more or less on par.

Mattitude V1 said:

Wide area with face tracking is much better than Dynamic Area. You should try it. Even when the eye box doesn’t come up, I’m getting eyes in focus.

Click to expand...

Both on Z7ii and Z6ii? I'm curious if the Phase-detect point number is a differentiator. I'll give it a more dedicated testing.




I would love to see Nikon implement a Fuji-esque user defined area box (control via front/rear dials).

I believe the new menus might also be a welcome update at some point. My only frustration is still how fiddly the Z's AF system modes are compared to CaSony. The more consolidated 3D would be a welcome update even if it was not at the Z9 level, which I don't think anyone is expecting.

I was thankfully surprised by the Z6/7 update... shows quite bit of commitment on Nikon's end for existing Nikonians.

cna said:

New FW for Z5/Z6/Z7 makes me think that Nikon wants to build on the Z9 momentum, and reverse the negative image that has built during the last few years

1) First introduce the Z9, and show the world that they can release the best ML camera on the market, or at least a camera that equals the best Sony/Canon ML cameras.

Also a way to demonstrate the doomsayers that Nikon is not only well and alive, but can also bring game changing innovations and take the lead in various aspects

2) Address some of the problems that were mostly reported by the YTubers, and that were used to develop a “bad AF performer” image : increase the performance of the overlay that comes with eye focus, for the first generation of Zx cameras. Also a good way to show that Nikon cares about its customers

3) Release in a few weeks a v2.0 of its FW for ZxII cameras; this firmware could be a trimmed down version of the Z9 FW, and bring some more advanced AF features, while taking full advantage of the 2 Expeed6 processors .

Click to expand...

This does seem more likely now. Though given the huge performance difference between Expeed 6 and 7, I’m not sure if they even can trim down the Z9 firmware for these cameras. But that doesn’t mean there is no room for improvement.

Andrew Ellis said:

I think an interesting question would be what sort of processor (power and performance) does Sony use in it's cameras (A7R, A9 etc) vs the new Nikon Expeed processor in the Z9 (or even the double processor in the MK II Z's), that has enabled them to have significantly better tracking performance than most of it's competitors for the last few years. I'm talking about way before the A1 was announced.

If Sony has been managing great AF-C tracking with processors that were 3 years old or more, then is it that Sony better manages the code in the firmware than Nikon, or have their processors always been next level compared to Nikon's ?

What I'm trying to say (very poorly), is that using an Intel VS AMD analogy, if the MKII Z's are running a Ryzen 5 and the Sony Intel I7's (with similar Raw performance to each other), how has Sony been able to get better AF-C performance other the last few years on similarly powerful processors, or have the Sony processors always been next generation ahead of Nikon ? I.e. do we need the latest and greatest processors to get even better performance (obviously not Z9 levels), or are the differences down to more efficient coding ?

Click to expand...

I don’t think anyone really knows the answer to this, but I think it’s probably coding. The Z6 and Z7 could have the performance they do with this latest update out of the box with better coding.

But the fact that the Expeed 7 is 12 times faster than the two Expeed 6s also tells you how underpowered the Z6/7 were when they came out.

Andrew Ellis said:

I think an interesting question would be what sort of processor (power and performance) does Sony use in it's cameras (A7R, A9 etc) vs the new Nikon Expeed processor in the Z9 (or even the double processor in the MK II Z's), that has enabled them to have significantly better tracking performance than most of it's competitors for the last few years. I'm talking about way before the A1 was announced.

If Sony has been managing great AF-C tracking with processors that were 3 years old or more, then is it that Sony better manages the code in the firmware than Nikon, or have their processors always been next level compared to Nikon's ?

Click to expand...

Good questions! I've wondered the same. I've also wondered if Sony in some way cripple the capability of purchased sensors they provide competitors?

Andrew Ellis said:

do we need the latest and greatest processors to get even better performance (obviously not Z9 levels), or are the differences down to more efficient coding ?

Click to expand...

A good question, and IMO the answer is a little of both. I do think that the Expeed series has been a little behind others, but I do not have empirical evidence to support that contention. The capabilities of the processor influence how you are able to code certain functions. Certain algorithms may produce better results, but may not be as performant, leading to the decision to use a simpler algorithm. That being said, I have been involved in programming projects that, through many iterations, extracted a good deal of extra performance over time running on the same platform. Current programming paradigms like Agile are highly iterative, with each iteration bringing feature or performance improvements. In short, it takes a bit of time to extract all of the performance a system is capable of.

It could be that Sony had more programming resources to throw at the problems, or that their processors have significantly more power. But I suspect it comes down to time. They started into mirrorless early and have had more time to iterate to a mature state.

Just my guess though...

I’d like to see Wide-Area small with eye detection.

Why not? Who else has 8K 60p video in this space?

I mean really high end, that defaults to Z mount, but uses the advantages of the short flange and wide throat to enable a number of lens conversions (PL and others)

Something that could be used in motion picture production or outfitted as an ENG, with well thought out layout and tools for those who want to run and gun AF as well as those who want to pull focus the traditional way.

Undercut red on price, partner with someone on software integration, release a few video housings, or another manual focus f/0.95 lens focal length, or those weird f/1.2AF zoom patents.

It's not a huge market, but it's a high end market that isn't afraid to spend $$$...

Mattitude V1 said:

Andrew Ellis said:

I think an interesting question would be what sort of processor (power and performance) does Sony use in it's cameras (A7R, A9 etc) vs the new Nikon Expeed processor in the Z9 (or even the double processor in the MK II Z's), that has enabled them to have significantly better tracking performance than most of it's competitors for the last few years. I'm talking about way before the A1 was announced.

If Sony has been managing great AF-C tracking with processors that were 3 years old or more, then is it that Sony better manages the code in the firmware than Nikon, or have their processors always been next level compared to Nikon's ?

What I'm trying to say (very poorly), is that using an Intel VS AMD analogy, if the MKII Z's are running a Ryzen 5 and the Sony Intel I7's (with similar Raw performance to each other), how has Sony been able to get better AF-C performance other the last few years on similarly powerful processors, or have the Sony processors always been next generation ahead of Nikon ? I.e. do we need the latest and greatest processors to get even better performance (obviously not Z9 levels), or are the differences down to more efficient coding ?

Click to expand...

I don’t think anyone really knows the answer to this, but I think it’s probably coding. The Z6 and Z7 could have the performance they do with this latest update out of the box with better coding.

But the fact that the Expeed 7 is 12 times faster than the two Expeed 6s also tells you how underpowered the Z6/7 were when they came out.

Click to expand...

I don’t know if we can assume that - Expeed 6 might well have been cutting edge at the time the Z6 and Z7 were locked down. It’s been three years…

HeavyDuty said:

Mattitude V1 said:

But the fact that the Expeed 7 is 12 times faster than the two Expeed 6s also tells you how underpowered the Z6/7 were when they came out.

Click to expand...

I don’t know if we can assume that - Expeed 6 might well have been cutting edge at the time the Z6 and Z7 were locked down. It’s been three years…

Click to expand...

I'd agree with that, and there are a number of factors to consider:

• what does 12x mean exactly? Is it general computing power or a very targeted spec? And what is that relative to?
• 3 years is a long time in computing: Moore's Law says the number of transistors double every 18 months, so that's 4x more transistors there and potentially 4x more capability.
• what is the parts budget for the camera? The parts prices for a Z6 are almost certainly more constrained than for a Z9, so Z9 could use a more expensive, more capable part (that in turn may require more support circuitry around it)
• what is the power budget for the camera? Z9 has a much bigger battery with higher voltage, so it can supply more power to a chip that might want to run faster or has additional features that require more power, eg. more I/O channels to ingest focus data or feed an EVF or processor, or more power to run the sensor readouts faster.
• what is the thermal budget for the camera? Z9 seems to have much higher heat management capabilities, so they could use a more powerful chip with more capabilities that runs hotter, or they can run the sensor faster which generates more heat.
• is the processor the only limiting factor in the Z6's focus performance? We know that the more often you can read off the focus data from the sensor, the higher the potential performance. The older sensors may not have the readout bandwidth to justify 12x more computing power even if that additional power was totally free, meaning that the Z6's computing power was not necessarily the highest they could have used at the time.

--
https://www.instagram.com/lolcar/

DigitalFFUser said:

cna said:

New FW for Z5/Z6/Z7 makes me think that Nikon wants to build on the Z9 momentum, and reverse the negative image that has built during the last few years

1) First introduce the Z9, and show the world that they can release the best ML camera on the market, or at least a camera that equals the best Sony/Canon ML cameras.

Also a way to demonstrate the doomsayers that Nikon is not only well and alive, but can also bring game changing innovations and take the lead in various aspects

2) Address some of the problems that were mostly reported by the YTubers, and that were used to develop a “bad AF performer” image : increase the performance of the overlay that comes with eye focus, for the first generation of Zx cameras. Also a good way to show that Nikon cares about its customers

3) Release in a few weeks a v2.0 of its FW for ZxII cameras; this firmware could be a trimmed down version of the Z9 FW, and bring some more advanced AF features, while taking full advantage of the 2 Expeed6 processors .

All in all , I think that what we are seeing now is part of a global initiative to restore Nikon’s image on the market, so that they could be seen as a ML leader, and not a doomed follower

Click to expand...

No matter what Nikon do Fro guy would say that they should have done it 2 years ago.

Click to expand...

That guy! The Fro is just butt hurt that he didn't wait and took a HUGE loss on his decade long acquisition of all that Nikon glass. The Fro will never get over that which is why in his video on the Z9 every time he caught himself praising the Z9, he would back track a bit and made it a backhanded compliment. He's incapable of giving Nikon their due at this point.

Kinda sad.