Optical quality of vintage classics VS modern cheap primes by TTArtisan/7Artisans?

I think flare is the main difference. The later, multicoated 50mm manual lenses are as good as modern lenses. Single-coated ones need a bit of care to avoid shooting into the light.

(Wide angle and zoom lenses made today are generally better than 20C equivalents.)

Don Cox

Hi,

When I first got into Fuji, when the XT1 was released in 2014, there were relatively few lenses available. I didn't try 50mm lenses because I had the 60mm, but did try adapting 85, 90, 100, 105 and 135mm lenses looking for small light options to substitute when I didn't want to carry the 55-200. Maybe the experience applies to 50mm lenses too.....

Honestly, some were very good, but I didn't find any as sharp across the frame as the 55-200. Nor did they control CAs as well. Short tele lenses in the film era weren't long enough to get ED glass and are too long in the digital era to do well (in terms of CAs) without it. PF and lateral CAs clean up OK in PP, but loca's don't. I also found that their resistance to flare was, on average, not quite as good, but that's a very individual thing - some are very good. Given the Fuji zoom also offers AF, OIS and LMO, there didn't seem to a lot going for adapted short teles. Sure they offered more speed, but their faster apertures are exactly where PF and CA's tend to be at their worst.

That was my experience with short teles. Fifties may be different and there are still many people who love their adapted nifty fifties. I suggest that you do plenty of reading - there numerous online reviews of legacy glass. There's also great info from the membership in the Adapted Lens Forum.

These days I follow a 'Fuji first' policy. Fuji's lenses are very good if not excellent, and the 50/2 is one of the sharpest. I still adapt a few lenses to get FLs or other things that Fuji don't offer (eg 300mm, long macros, and TS adapted lenses). Having said that, I miss the feeling of a real helix - FBW doesn't ever feel quite as good.

Don't know if that helps....

Cheers, Rod

As a general rule of the thumb, resolution and flare resistance will be better with modern lenses.

Geometry, field flatness and color are better with the old ones.

Yesteryear lenses ergonomic is vastly superior.

IsMark4Real said:

I'm planning to buy a fast manual 50mm lens for Fuji X-T20. I had some limited experience with vintage glass a few years ago with MC Helios 44K-4 and adapted Industar 50-2 on a Pentax K-5 body.

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Not the most impressive choices....

IsMark4Real said:

I'm considering either getting a new 7Artisans 55 mm F1.4 II or TTARTISAN 50MM F1.2... OR adapt a CZJ Pancolar 50mm F1.8 (which costs around the same as those mentioned lenses) or SMC Pentax-M (or A) 50mm F1.7 (usually for half the price of Pancolar).

Now, bokeh and mechanical quality aside, how those lenses would compare IQ wise? Sharpness, CA, flare resistance ETC?

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Fast fifties have been double Gaussian designs for many decades, and that basically gives pretty good performance except for a fair bit of SA wide open. You'll see little halos on bright things wide open.

Modern lenses, even many fast fifties, are often using more complex designs. More elements means more surfaces, and so better coatings are largely enabling that rather than producing less flare than older, simpler, decently multicoated lenses. More elements also tend to produce more complex structured flare.

As for sharpness, well, wide open in the center the newer ones are probably better in that they have less SA and hence better contrast, but resolution of the older lenses is often higher -- just at a lower contrast level. Overall, I don't think there's optically much advantage to the new lenses, but there's not much disadvantage either.

There's some nice answers here, thanks. But I was hoping for more direct comparison of 7Artisans 55 mm F1.4 II or TTARTISAN 50MM F1.2 VS the classics. I guess not many people had such experience.

IsMark4Real said:

There's some nice answers here, thanks. But I was hoping for more direct comparison of 7Artisans 55 mm F1.4 II or TTARTISAN 50MM F1.2 VS the classics. I guess not many people had such experience.

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Well, you are talking about a recent APS-C lens, and many of us switched to FF before that came out.... ;-)

There are lots of reviews of the TTArtisan 50mm f/1.2 online and, to put it bluntly, you're not likely to find an old 50mm f/1.2 for the $100 it sells for new. From the reviews, I'd say it flares worse than most old fast fifties, which is surprising given it has only 7 elements in 5 groups. If you check-out the MTF chart at https://ttartisan.myshopify.com/collections/aps-c-lenses/products/ttartisan-50mm-f1-2 , it actually looks quite decent, with rather low contrast wide open, but better evenness across the APS-C frame than I would have expected. BTW, one of the slides there calls it an f/1.25, which it probably is, but you'll see a lot of imprecision on lens labeling for things marked f/1.2, so that's not a big deal.

The biggest downside to this is really that it's APS-C, but Fuji doesn't give you a FF upgrade path anyway, and FF coverage of the GFX sensors is iffy at best using designed-for-FF lenses.

The 7Artisans 55 mm F1.4 II is too new to have lots of detailed reviews out there, but the MTF chart (found on Amazon) for it looks even better... then again, so do most old 50mm f/1.4 lenses, and they're cheaper than this....

IsMark4Real said:

The 7Artisans 55 mm F1.4 II is too new to have lots of detailed reviews out there, but the MTF chart (found on Amazon) for it looks even better... then again, so do most old 50mm f/1.4 lenses, and they're cheaper than this....

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According to the research I've been making for the past few days - it's not that easy to get a well regarded vintage 50mm F1.4 prime for the same price as those two new Chinese lenses, at least not in Poland.

TTArtisan 50mm F1.2 goes for 450 PLN new. Easily available in several stores.

7Artisans 55mm F1.4 II goes for 520 PLN new. Easily available in several stores as well.

Now, looking at the used market on Allegro - the biggest marketplace site:

1) SMC Takumar 50mm f/1.4 - only one seller, bidding involved, current price is 730 PLN (and it will rise). Showing only for reference, the price will rise like crazy at the last 2 minutes.

2) Revuenon Auto MC 50mm 1.4 - 325 PLN

3) Auto Revuenon 55mm f/1.4 Tomioka - 380 PLN

4) Canon FDn 50mm f1.4 - 390 PLN

5) MINOLTA MD ROKKOR 50/1.4 - 400 PLN (bidding, will rise)

6) Konica Hexanon 50/1.4 AR - 420 PLN

7) MINOLTA MC ROKKOR-PG 50/1.4 MD - 420 PLN (bidding, will rise)

8) MINOLTA MC ROKKOR-PF 58/1.4 - 550 PLN (bidding, will rise)

Deals from OLX, local-oriented marketplace:

1) Yashica Yashinon -DX 1:1.4 f=50mm - 400 PLN

2) Minolta MD Rokkor 50mm f/1.4 - 450 PLN

3) SMC Pentax 1.4/50 - 450 PLN

4) Canon FD 50mm 1.4 - 475 PLN

5) Canon Lens FD 50mm 1:1.4 - 520 PLN

That's all the choice I have ATM from F1.4 lenses.

The only Zuiko OM 50 F1.4 that I could find had busted rear element (scratched VERY heavily). Overall as far as vintage lenses goes I was leaning more towards Pentax M/A 50mm F1.7 or Pancolar 50mm F1.8 due to their reputation and availability.

IsMark4Real said:

Hi there.

I'm planning to buy a fast manual 50mm lens for Fuji X-T20. I had some limited experience with vintage glass a few years ago with MC Helios 44K-4 and adapted Industar 50-2 on a Pentax K-5 body.

I'm considering either getting a new 7Artisans 55 mm F1.4 II or TTARTISAN 50MM F1.2... OR adapt a CZJ Pancolar 50mm F1.8 (which costs around the same as those mentioned lenses) or SMC Pentax-M (or A) 50mm F1.7 (usually for half the price of Pancolar).

Now, bokeh and mechanical quality aside, how those lenses would compare IQ wise? Sharpness, CA, flare resistance ETC?

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And one modern native lens as a reference. Sony FF format though.

IsMark4Real said:

IsMark4Real said:

The 7Artisans 55 mm F1.4 II is too new to have lots of detailed reviews out there, but the MTF chart (found on Amazon) for it looks even better... then again, so do most old 50mm f/1.4 lenses, and they're cheaper than this....

Click to expand...

According to the research I've been making for the past few days - it's not that easy to get a well regarded vintage 50mm F1.4 prime for the same price as those two new Chinese lenses, at least not in Poland.

Click to expand...

Fair enough. Things are quite different in the USA. Good old 50mm f/1.4 usually run about $50 on eBay -- about half the price of the TTartisan 50mm f/1.2. That said, buying old lenses always involves a bit of waiting for the best combination of condition and price, whereas buying a new lens is something you can always literally do today.

In sum, I don't think you'd regret buying one of the new ones for a Fuji APS-C body.

I actually agree with the point about price, but atleast one thing worth pointing out is the T stop on a full frame vintage SLR 50mm f1.4 on an APS-C sensor might be closer to the listed aperture than a 50mm f1.4 designed for the APS-C sensor.

Atleast on the f0.95 35mm lenses, the actual T stop is a fair bit lower from what I've seen online. Granted, even vintage full frame f1.4 lenses will vignette and have their own tradeoffs with abberations. Also, you may actually desire that vignetting.

IsMark4Real said:

Hi there.

I'm planning to buy a fast manual 50mm lens for Fuji X-T20. I had some limited experience with vintage glass a few years ago with MC Helios 44K-4 and adapted Industar 50-2 on a Pentax K-5 body.

I'm considering either getting a new 7Artisans 55 mm F1.4 II or TTARTISAN 50MM F1.2... OR adapt a CZJ Pancolar 50mm F1.8 (which costs around the same as those mentioned lenses) or SMC Pentax-M (or A) 50mm F1.7 (usually for half the price of Pancolar).

Now, bokeh and mechanical quality aside, how those lenses would compare IQ wise? Sharpness, CA, flare resistance ETC?

Click to expand...

I have recently bought both the 7Artisans 50/0.95 and 35/0.95 lenses in M4/3 mount. They are both aps-c image circle lenses and available in Fuji-X as far as I know.

I also have their recently released 60/2.8 Macro in M4/3.

I have earlier 7Artisans lenses and can state that this more recent set of lenses has taken their build quality of MF lenses to a new high.

They reek of quality construction - perfect focus action, smooth clickless multi-blade aperture. This is way above what we could really expect from the legacy MF lenses that we take a great interest in. If look and feel were enough then these lenses are high quality winners.

Images? I have been doing other things recently but am happy with what these lenses can produce. Sample images of my best work seem to hang around on my camera bodies until I get around to firing up my ‘big” computer to download them.

Sufficient that some relatively affordable modern MF lenses seem to be able to keep up with the best that the old makers could do.

With the f0.95 lenses user skills in managing these lens dof wide open is as much an issue as the underlying lens image quality. Therefore I find that my failures are more my operator error than the lens capability itself.

I am happy with them and am now psyching myself up for the 7Artisans 25/0.95 as well which is quite another $kettle of fish. And a thumping bit lens to boot.

There has been some comment on the forum about how the Chinese MF lens industry is starting to give the Legacy lens market a bit of a hurry up.

Is a Chinese MF lens built to improved standards for specific mount systems an adapted lens? Technically - not really as there is no adapter involved - but all the other attributes of legacy MF lenses exist. MF-only, multi-blade aperture, etc - they are direct competitors to our legacy lenses and are not of huge interest to our AF-mount using brethren.

There are also very well priced from very affordable through to some more excellent lenses well worth more than a passing interest.

Frankly I cannot make myself afford legacy MF (or even Japanese current-made) lenses as fast as f0.95. But I can make myself afford some brand new Chinese made ones.

IsMark4Real said:

IsMark4Real said:

The 7Artisans 55 mm F1.4 II is too new to have lots of detailed reviews out there, but the MTF chart (found on Amazon) for it looks even better... then again, so do most old 50mm f/1.4 lenses, and they're cheaper than this....

Click to expand...

According to the research I've been making for the past few days - it's not that easy to get a well regarded vintage 50mm F1.4 prime for the same price as those two new Chinese lenses, at least not in Poland.

TTArtisan 50mm F1.2 goes for 450 PLN new. Easily available in several stores.

7Artisans 55mm F1.4 II goes for 520 PLN new. Easily available in several stores as well.

Now, looking at the used market on Allegro - the biggest marketplace site:

1) SMC Takumar 50mm f/1.4 - only one seller, bidding involved, current price is 730 PLN (and it will rise). Showing only for reference, the price will rise like crazy at the last 2 minutes.

2) Revuenon Auto MC 50mm 1.4 - 325 PLN

3) Auto Revuenon 55mm f/1.4 Tomioka - 380 PLN

4) Canon FDn 50mm f1.4 - 390 PLN

5) MINOLTA MD ROKKOR 50/1.4 - 400 PLN (bidding, will rise)

6) Konica Hexanon 50/1.4 AR - 420 PLN

7) MINOLTA MC ROKKOR-PG 50/1.4 MD - 420 PLN (bidding, will rise)

8) MINOLTA MC ROKKOR-PF 58/1.4 - 550 PLN (bidding, will rise)

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I have a big collection of 50/1.4 lenses in different mounts and never payed more then 50 € for one. I have bought all my lenses from e-bay. Probably you have to look at german e-bay, the number of offers is very high. And, as always, on e-bay you must have a little patience to get the wanted item for a reasonable price.

If you are after portraits, cross every single vintage 50/1.4 from your list.

The most beautiful vintage portrait IQ from this list would be courtesy of MC Rokkor 58/1.4 stopped down to F2.8.

Runner up would be Reuvenon 55/1.4 stopped down to F2. Better still would be to check out slower 55mm Minoltas, which combine exquisite bokeh quality with perfect geometry and are immune to purple fringing. Resolution on APS-C would be an issue though.

For a fast APS-C 50mm, you might want to include the Kamlan 50mm f1.1 v2 in your research. I am using it on Fuji and it definitely delivers as much if not better than vintage glass at many levels. To me it is always a trade-off between aesthetically pleasing images and decent IQ, and that Kamlan (the v2) is really well balanced on that.

IsMark4Real said:

There's some nice answers here, thanks. But I was hoping for more direct comparison of 7Artisans 55 mm F1.4 II or TTARTISAN 50MM F1.2 VS the classics. I guess not many people had such experience.

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More a hunch than a statistic but the members of this forum seem to be more into variants of the Sony A7 type camera bodies and mainly use legacy MF lenses.

There is a good smattering of M4/3 body users about. Less for Fuji and those that are buying new-made Chinese lenses are still feeling their way.

Those that electronically adapt EF mount lenses are even fewer ….

Consequently it is hardly surprising that you might not have found exactly what you were seeking. Not quite the “Sony FF ML camera body using adapted legacy MF lens forum” ….

But we are a willing, friendly mob and try to do our best.

In my case, I might be the only one who has bought the 50/0.95 and 35/0.95 pair from 7Artisans - which are aps-c lenses mounted for M4/3. I am very happy with their build quality and the images are pleasing when I get my technique right. But we have been isolated by the Covid and I have not been out and about with them.

I would not consider either or these lenses cheap Chinese primes but rather very good value lenses of some quality.

I contrast these lenses with the 7Artisans lens I bought some time ago. This was the 50/1.1 made exclusively in LM Mount and was a quite expensive lens for “made in China”. I bought it thinking “LM - I can adapt it”. But although I saw that it could be adapted to Sony FE I did not check other mounts. Its rear protrusion severely limits where it can be used. Luckily I have a Ricoh GXR-M with Leica M mount where it fits fine. There are no rear protrusion issues with the latest line of 7Artisans lenses. They seem to have learned that lesson. This 50/1.1 LM mount lens will not even adapt to the Leica L-Mount (!)

The 50/1.1 LM is quite a good lens but not nearly as sweet to use and perfectly finished as the present 50/0.95 I now own. I don’t own any other f0.95 lenses. I do have a Canon LTM 50/1.2 though. At push versus shove the 7Artisans 50/0.95 gives it a good run for its money even though I am perfectly happy with both.

Photography generally seems to be a more interesting investment if the lenses are demonstrated by to die for images - I am not that good and my photographic opportunity is restricted by my busy life style which includes much more than simply taking images. And the fact that I can take reasonable quality but only when the circumstances and opportunities arise.

I am more of the type of person who likes good gear and follows the mantra that most modern lenses made into a certain price/capability are quite good enough for most purposes. Experts will talk about capturing issues, but I am not an expert. I just enjoy having good gear and using it. Optical issues with a lens that creates an image that moves the soul have been said to be character and yet we set out on a never ending journey for the impossibly-good lens only to find that it has not been made yet but you can pay a big price for its close relative.

If build quality is anything to go by then these latest issue 7Artisans lenses are very well built indeed.

I noted in my other post that the 7Artisans 25/0.95 is in my sights - its price is the only hurdle.

I am obviously unabashed with my existing f0.95 purchases.

ProfHankD said:

IsMark4Real said:

ProfHankD said:

The 7Artisans 55 mm F1.4 II is too new to have lots of detailed reviews out there, but the MTF chart (found on Amazon) for it looks even better... then again, so do most old 50mm f/1.4 lenses, and they're cheaper than this....

Click to expand...

According to the research I've been making for the past few days - it's not that easy to get a well regarded vintage 50mm F1.4 prime for the same price as those two new Chinese lenses, at least not in Poland.

Click to expand...

Fair enough. Things are quite different in the USA. Good old 50mm f/1.4 usually run about $50 on eBay -- about half the price of the TTartisan 50mm f/1.2. That said, buying old lenses always involves a bit of waiting for the best combination of condition and price, whereas buying a new lens is something you can always literally do today.

In sum, I don't think you'd regret buying one of the new ones for a Fuji APS-C body.

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Australian experience:

US$50 for freight and now our GST of 10% on the lot. The European VAT is even higher.

Second hand purchases from private vendors don’t attract 10% GST in Australia but when imported by a purchase facilitator or freight forwarded any goods are plus 10%.

That is US$110 for that US$50 lens in Australia.

When I was buying Mamiya 645 lenses the ones from Japan were pristine - for the same money from the US the same lenses looked like they had been very well used by a professional (as we might expect).

Freight from Japan is also expensive but this is courier-fast and can be at your door in as little as three working days. This is not a real object when buying more expensive classic lenses in pristine condition.

And yet the cheapest Chinese brand new lenses can be as low as low as US$60 landed at your door in Australia - post and GST included.

Add that there is not a huge market to buy or sell legacy MF lenses in Australia and 99% of what I have bought have been imported form all over the world.

Now brand new Chinese made lenses are looking more and more attractive - especially with the recent very obvious lift in build quality. China has also discovered the knack of high quality packaging as well.

So not only do we get much better quality product but we get it in a very nice box

I'd like to thank you all for your insights. Although no one could directly answer my question (as it was quite specific indeed), the experience you shared helped me make up my mind.

I'll probably get either of those mentioned new Chinese lenses. I'll probably get a fast wide angle as well eventually, like TTArtisan 17mm F1.4. Zooming with your feet is fine, but it can only get you so far.

Best regards to all of you.

Hi there,

I own several vintage lenses and modern ones from Meike, 7Artisans and TTArtisans. The latter's build quality is quite nice though I dislike the thin aperture rings. But TTArtisan lenses have clicked aperture

Optically I am overall quite happy with TTArtisan. I am sure expensive Fuji Primes are most likely better but are they multiple times the price better? Compared to vintage primes they can hold their own...the Chinese lenses are often based on old lens formulas anyway but with modern coatings. I'd say if you are not buying really great vintage glass (prices are insane on ebay right now) the Chinese lenses are probably somewhat better. Also you do not need adapters which keeps everything nice and small on an XT20.

On the other side there are Chinese ones like the Meike 28 F2.8 pancake that I own which are comparable to cheap vintage lenses made for countless store brands.

Here is my guide: A vintage lens that performs similar or better than a TTArtisan will cost you more. A cheap vintage lens won't perform as good or will most likely be an F1.8 instead of 1.2 or 1.4.

Paul Hoppe said:

paulhoppe_photography wrote

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Paul Hoppe said:

On the other side there are Chinese ones like the Meike 28 F2.8 pancake that I own which are comparable to cheap vintage lenses made for countless store brands.

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