I do not use flash that often and only have my old SB-910 which has not been used the last few years, but I think it's really bad of Nikon not to have a proper flash! Seriously!
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Z6ii with SB800 Flash
- Thread starter Arkayem
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Arkayem
Leading Member
For some unknown reason, the Z camera focus system can't focus on the typical Nikon red pattern. So, Nikon just disables the flash's red assist lamp when mounted on a Z camera.
Nikon needs to produce a flash with a green focus assist lamp for the Z cameras.
My Z6ii simply can't compete in this scenario, so I will continue to use my D810 with an SB800 on it for all low light events that need flash. I may even decide to upgrade to D850.
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Russ MacDonald
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http://nikonclspracticalguide.blogspot.com/
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Arkayem
Leading Member
The modeling light does not aid in low light focus. It simply allows a portrait photographer to see where the shadows will be on his model before taking the flash shot.
Sagittarius
Veteran Member
Because the phase detect autofocus pixels are on the green/blue photosites.
j_photo
Veteran Member
This problem isn't unique to Z cameras. It's an issue with any mirrorless camera. But it's a problem nonetheless. As I mentioned in an earlier reply, if you have low-light focus turned on, you should turn it off. It's very slow and not a good solution for general indoor flash work. You can get better results without it.
kli
Senior Member
As others are saying not unknown, and ubiquitous to mirrorless.
dSLRs use three separate sensor arrays: the main image capture array on the back wall of the camera, an AF sensor array on the floor of the camera, and a small sensor up near the pentamirror/pentaprism for exposure metering. The mirror in a dSLR is partially transparent, and additional mirrors are used to divert part of the light coming in to the AF and metering arrays.
On a mirrorless camera, there's no mirrors, and only the single main image sensor array to do all the work.
On a dSLR, the AF sensor array does not sit behind any filters, and is sensitive both to visible light and IR.
On a mirrorless camera, the image sensor sits behind an IR/UV cut filter, because IR/UV sensitivity of the sensor can throw of visible light colors. And, to give you a color image instead of a B&W one, it also sits behind a Bayer/X-Trans/etc. filter with red/blue/green filters to give RBG values to a pixel from four photosites: two green, one blue, one red.
So, not only is all infrared light blocked, but any red light cannot be "seen" through green filters, and only faintly "seen" through the blue. To have decent AF assist with a mirrorless camera, the AF assist must be green or white.
michaeladawson
Forum Pro
He didn’t say to use the modeling light.
FWIW, I don’t believe this is a Nikon problem. Last I paid attention to this none of the mirrorless brands out there support an AF assist lamp on the flash. Maybe this has changed in the last year.
olyflyer
Forum Pro
Many times it helps if you turn off low light AF (a11 on the Z7) and apply settings to live view (d8 on the Z7).
Yes, the built in AF assist LED is almost always blocked by the hand, the lens, or the lens hood. Practically it is totally useless as it is and is demonstrated in this video.
Currently this is the only solution I know of:
https://adapting-camera.blogspot.com/2021/01/latest-update-regarding-external-auto.html
Some flashes have video light which can be turned on manually, but that is in my opinion a bad solution, since the light is annoying and even if you turn it on and off for every image, it will be on for far too long time compared to what is actually needed for focusing.
Modelling light might also be a possibility, but again, I think that's a poor solution.
Perhaps Nikon will release a new flash, but the existing ones won't work because of the red LED, it is not good enough as AF assist light when the sensor is used for focusing, as it is done in mirrorless cameras. DSLR bodies have a separate sensor, actually a whole bunch of sensors which are dedicated for auto focus (and spot metering), but these sensors are designed to be red sensitive. This can't be done with the sensor, which has the main task of recording images.
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olyflyer
Forum Pro
I don't know how Sony controls the AF assist on/off function, perhaps there is a dedicated pin with an output signal for this purpose. Nikon does that via the communication protocol between the flash and the camera, so it is not that easy for a 3rd party supplier to make it work, since Nikon simply does not output the message needed to turn on the AF assist.
It is also a fact that this is not a Nikon issue at all, all brand has the same problem, and as far as I know, nobody has a solution. I mean, Canon has this also with the R5, as well as Sony. So the other manufacturers struggle just like Nikon. I don't know what the issue is, why they can't just modify existing flashes, but there must definitely be more to it than what we know.
I have just looked at their page, and they say that it is available for Nikon, but AF assist is not supported for the Nikon Z and Canon EOS R series. There must be a reason for that. I don't know how the Sony can use the red light, but it seems to work there.
The other thing is that the flash costs around 8-900 EUR. Are you ready to pay that much for a flash...?
Turn off custom setting d8 (apply settings to live view) when you use your flash gun. You won't need that anyway since the exposure is mostly determined by the flash and not by the ambient light. With flash on, I think you'll lock shutter speed, aperture, and ISO in some place to give you the desired level of ambient light and leave it at those settings. So no reason to have d8 set to on really.
olyflyer
Forum Pro
Yes...
No. The camera is making the decision about the exposure, not the flash. Based on the ambient light and a pre-flash, the camera is telling the flash how intensive the flash light must be. The exposure is measured by the camera, not by the flash. In TTL, the ambient light is measured + a pre-flash is emitted (on command from the camera) and the results are used to calculate the main flash intensity.
You don't need to lock anything at all. In fact, in my experience, iTTL-BL works best if you don't lock any values. By that, I mean, using A mode and let ISO and shutter speed float (Auto ISO). I also like M but in that case I still let ISO float. I never use S with flash, and never ever used P for anything.
The main reason for this is that it makes the display too dark for composition and also, because of the flash, you can't really adjust the exposure based on the display.
olyflyer
Forum Pro
That's the wrong conclusion. A lot of people manage weddings and events with the Z6/7. If you previously relied on the AF assist light, not caring about anything else the you have to rethink, find some contrasty detail and base your focus on that. Leave AF-C and use AF-S. Don't use pin point AF... and so on.
I think it's wrong to take a bran new camera and go directly to a paid event with it. So the reason why you lost those images was that you did not familiarize with your new gear.
There can be several reasons for that. For example, if you have focus priority on then the shutter is not released unless focus is confirmed by the camera. The focus can easily be disturbed if you did not disable the lens ring. To me that caused a lot of annoyance at the beginning, then I disabled the ring and that solved it. If I want to focus manually I enable it. Unfortunately, the ring of the 24-70 (and maybe other Z lenses also) is too sensitive and easy to offset in my opinion.
You should give the Z6 another chance, but it can't really compete with the D810, since it has an AA filter, so your images won't be as crisp with it as the D810. The Z7 on the other hand would give you the crispness you are looking for. It does not have AA filter and has the same pixel density plus some more.
plumberdp69
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Got a second hand SB-900 and tried it on Z6ii last night. Difficult to get focus. Realised later this was due to the red AF assist from SB-900 which Z6ii cant use (needs green light).
One thought came to mind. Put a filter on the red light source to change it to green. Problem solved. But is it possible to change from one primary color (red) to another primary color (green) using filter? Dont think so.
Any good solution to this AF assist light for Z6ii?
Thanks.
P/S For those with Z6ii and SB800 or 900 or 910, can you try it and see if the flash assist lights up when taking a photo in a dark area? Mine does not. Maybe it is programmed that way as Z uses green light while the flashes use red light. Thanks.
One thought came to mind. Put a filter on the red light source to change it to green. Problem solved. But is it possible to change from one primary color (red) to another primary color (green) using filter? Dont think so.
Any good solution to this AF assist light for Z6ii?
Thanks.
P/S For those with Z6ii and SB800 or 900 or 910, can you try it and see if the flash assist lights up when taking a photo in a dark area? Mine does not. Maybe it is programmed that way as Z uses green light while the flashes use red light. Thanks.
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Hi there - first posting ever, so I apologize for not knowing community formalities. I researched using my SB800 flash with my new Nikon z6ii and was disappointed to see this. HOWEVER, when I put the SB800 on my hotshoe - it worked quite nicely!!!! I am so thankful and I love my Z6ii so much I may never pick up my D750 ever again!
P.s. This is in response to the comment that the SB800 doesn't work on Z Bodies.
Sagittarius
Veteran Member
SB 800 works on Z 6II. Focus assist lamp on SB 800 as well as on other Nikon flashs does not.
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Arkayem
Leading Member
I know the SB800 works on my Z6ii. That's not what I was asking.
I am a wedding photographer, and most weddings have dancing in subdued light. Nearly completely dark!
The D6ii does not focus fast enough in dark conditions to grab great shots. If it manages to focus at all, the moment is long gone when the flash fires. Or, if I set the flash to fire on the shutter release, the image doesn't have enough time to focus, and the image is blurry.
With my DSLRs, the focus assist lamp comes on at the touch of the shutter button, and the focus happens so fast, the shot is always sharp and aimed exactly where I want it.
The Z6ii is no good for low light flash photography when dancing is involved. It simply focuses too slowly, if at all.
I am a wedding photographer, and most weddings have dancing in subdued light. Nearly completely dark!
The D6ii does not focus fast enough in dark conditions to grab great shots. If it manages to focus at all, the moment is long gone when the flash fires. Or, if I set the flash to fire on the shutter release, the image doesn't have enough time to focus, and the image is blurry.
With my DSLRs, the focus assist lamp comes on at the touch of the shutter button, and the focus happens so fast, the shot is always sharp and aimed exactly where I want it.
The Z6ii is no good for low light flash photography when dancing is involved. It simply focuses too slowly, if at all.
I have a Z5 and have struggled with the same problem. I tried a number of things at my last wedding and was frustrated that the camera would not focus at all in a dark room. When I got home I experimented with my camera and my SB800 flash. The usual flash red lighting did not work with the Z5 unlike my D800 which works great. With some research I found that Nikon has disabled it on their mirrorless cameras {red light doesn't work). So a little more experimenting. I turned on the flash assist light and noted it sent out a green beam, but was blocked in the center of the frame by my 24-70 lens. Since I use single point auto focus and single (not continuous) auto focus the focus point did not see the green flash assist beam. With some trial and error I set the auto focus box to the wide-s (wide small) and moved it to the left in the frame so it was exposed to the green beam. Viola! It works like a champ now and focuses fast and almost 100% of the time. I do have to hold the camera a little different so my left hand doesn't block the beam, but this solved a HUGE problem for me with wedding receptions. Adding a rig with a handle keeps my hand out of the way. Definitely give it a try at home.
Models By Day
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Last week I was at a Photography show, and got to talk to the Nikon Reps. He told me the Mirrorless cameras can not use the Grid pattern system that the SB800 uses. Also we talked about the Green light. But he also pointed out that there is a Low Light Focus setting , at least on the Z7ii, A10 Low Light AF.
Not sure how well it works and also exactly how, it only works in AF-S (Single AF) mode.
Also at least for my system the SB800 LCD Backlight does not turn on like it use to with D7100/D300 when you turn on the top LCD backlight.
You can enable the SB800 backlight to always be on however this would then be on all the time and use battery power and might wear out the light as well. Not sure if all Z cameras have this issue.
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The low light focus setting on the Z cameras does not seem to offer much benefit in my experience (it changes the focus to just contrast detect). The red light from the Nikon flash is not compatible with the mirrorless cameras focus system that is why it is disabled when the flash is used (only green and white light work with the mirrorless auto focus). What does work in my testing is to use the green light from the on-board focus light and to make sure that the focus box on the camera is over where the light is broadcast. On my Z5 with a 24-70 zoom lens the green light is visible on the left hand side of the screen (when looking through the viewfinder in a dark room and pressing the AF button) since the lens blocks it in the middle of the frame. As long as my focus box is over this green area the focus works well. I found that the wide-s focus box works well for this and as long as it is over the green area at all the focus works. Having my focus box slightly on the left side of the frame is not a big deal especially when photographing fast action like dancing as I many times have the camera over my head or am moving it around. The wide-s box seems to work better in low light that the single point as it is able to pick up the green light more effectively. Bottom line; test this at home in a dark room and see what works best. Make sure your left hand does not block the green focus beam from the camera (grip it lower than usual). This technique has made my Z5 usable for wedding receptions and saved me from having to buy a different camera.
Models By Day
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It is funny that the Green Light was moved to the left side on the Z cameras (not sure if this is the case with all of them.
D50 Same or close to the D300
D300 white light is on the right side and it is almost impossible to block it by mistake. Lens does block it the same way as on the Z camera.
D7100 same as D300
On the D7100 with my 16-85 and Hood attached the white light still projects OK
On the Z7ii with the 24-70 Hood attached it seems to block more of the green the D7100.
Glad that most of my photography is studio where I can add ambient light to assist in focus if required.
Hopefully Nikon can create a Flash Cable similar to the SC-29 with a green light
I spent a lot of money on my SB800 / Newton Flash Bracket / SC-29, at least it all still works on the Z minus the red focus grid and back lite LCD on SB800.
D50 Same or close to the D300
D300 white light is on the right side and it is almost impossible to block it by mistake. Lens does block it the same way as on the Z camera.
D7100 same as D300
On the D7100 with my 16-85 and Hood attached the white light still projects OK
On the Z7ii with the 24-70 Hood attached it seems to block more of the green the D7100.
Glad that most of my photography is studio where I can add ambient light to assist in focus if required.
Hopefully Nikon can create a Flash Cable similar to the SC-29 with a green light
I spent a lot of money on my SB800 / Newton Flash Bracket / SC-29, at least it all still works on the Z minus the red focus grid and back lite LCD on SB800.
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