I looked into those. The one issue I have is if Fuji made such a camera, they would use chips that were pulled after the micro lenses were applied but prior to the CFA. The third parties scrape off both the CFA and micro lenses. So I am a bit skeptical of the impact of losing the micro lenses. Since the distance between the lens and sensor in a mirrorless is small compared to say a DSLR - the micro lenses seem to be essential especially toward the edges of the sensor.
That is the most irrealistic proposal so far, using a different sensor [added R&D cost, low volume mans higher price] and then wanting it cheap
Just wait until I get my hands on the monochrome cam
As happens so often here and elsewhere, people can get carried away with their individual wish(es), which can conflict what's economically feasible for manufacturers.
.../...
Why being sooo pessimistic ? :-(((Well that’s the problem, it would never be under $1700.Some XT-4M built around the Sony imx571 mono sensor :
- No Bayer Mosaic : a camera 2 times More Sensitive w/o Moiré.
- No X-trans Mosaic : no more watercolor effect, nor worms artifacts.
For less than $1700, I order one right now...
))
Realistic.../...
Why being sooo pessimistic ? :-(((Well that’s the problem, it would never be under $1700.Some XT-4M built around the Sony imx571 mono sensor :
- No Bayer Mosaic : a camera 2 times More Sensitive w/o Moiré.
- No X-trans Mosaic : no more watercolor effect, nor worms artifacts.
For less than $1700, I order one right now...
The stripping down as you call it is new R&D
But it will have to be replaced by something, both in the processing side. Even if you are willing to lose the current monochrome conversions
and in the hardware. This is mostly replacing the CFA with something clear. As all sensors are monochrome [maybe you should read on that] it could be done with the existing sensor
Putting in a different sensor makes it in reality a different camera requiring new R&D. But it is not really needed
Not really relevant what they did in film. What is relevant is that Fuji [albeit another division] are the leading maker of the toppings [microlenses and CFA] that go on the bare sensor].
As has been argued here: not huge and not for everyone who shoots monochrome all the time
It is probably still a very limited market, which means a higher price. Are you willing to pay say 50% over the price at introduction of the X-pro3?
I’m pessimistic because the monochrome cameras that exist are always more niche and always more expensive. There are others besides Leica, but nobody makes a low end strictly monochrome camera for a reason..../...
Why being sooo pessimistic ? :-(((Well that’s the problem, it would never be under $1700.Some XT-4M built around the Sony imx571 mono sensor :
- No Bayer Mosaic : a camera 2 times More Sensitive w/o Moiré.
- No X-trans Mosaic : no more watercolor effect, nor worms artifacts.
For less than $1700, I order one right now...
I'm Not speaking about a Future New Camera from a Niche-for-Rich brand as Leica is...
This will only be a Stripped Down version of a long selling Fujifilm camera,
I said the X-T4, but it could be the X-Pro3, the X-T3 or even the X-E4 ?
In any case a camera whose R&D has been Paid for a long time
Stripped Down because everything within Color-Profiles, Color-Spaces, WBs, etc...
Even the " X-Transing " will be immediately and totally useless !
After choosing the precise IR-UV-Cut Filter to mount in front of the Mono sensor...
Fujifilm has just to calculate the exact Distance from the mount to the sensor.
The imx571 16 bit Mono sensor already exists, since at least 2 years old :
- Altair-hypercam-26m-aps-c-mono-camera-16bit
- Qhyccd-qhy268-PRO-imx571-16bit-cmos
- Qhyccd-qhy268ph-imx571-16bit-cmos
- Asi2600mm-pro-mono-16bit
- etc. ( QE near 90% )
I can't see nothing so complicated for a brand who knows a lot about B&W films...
but the improvements from B&W films will be so Huge that...
this won't remain a niche camera for long
Monochrome seems more forgiving of high isos for a lot of styles. Particularly if you don't mind grain. Also, since you will need to add color filters for a lot of work, you would need higher isos to get the same shot.
It's because there are no RGB pixels. They are all full visible spectrum.
For my own interests, I would be more curious about what tech like Pentax's pixel shift tech could add, or HDR techniques for b/w, as these could mitigate the advantages of the pure b/w sensor while moving color editing to post. I also wonder why Fuji doesn't have more b/w sims and more filters for each.This makes me think about buying a monochrome camera (in addition to my XT2/Xpro2), since I shoot mainly B&W it fits me perfectly.
Why FUJI doesnt make one? I think that FUJI base will be happy to have one.
FUJI, do you follow DPREVIEW forums?
Ori
Monochrome seems more forgiving of high isos for a lot of styles. Particularly if you don't mind grain. Also, since you will need to add color filters for a lot of work, you would need higher isos to get the same shot.
It's because there are no RGB pixels. They are all full visible spectrum.
For my own interests, I would be more curious about what tech like Pentax's pixel shift tech could add, or HDR techniques for b/w, as these could mitigate the advantages of the pure b/w sensor while moving color editing to post. I also wonder why Fuji doesn't have more b/w sims and more filters for each.This makes me think about buying a monochrome camera (in addition to my XT2/Xpro2), since I shoot mainly B&W it fits me perfectly.
Why FUJI doesnt make one? I think that FUJI base will be happy to have one.
FUJI, do you follow DPREVIEW forums?
Ori
Hi Ori,
ORiL wrote: that looks [B]great[/B] I hope Fuji will make one. I hope it too ORiL said:2962336[/ATTACH]
Where do these bonus photons - in pale yellow - come from ?
.
Remember Nikon claiming " Full-Frame is for niche cameras ", until... the D3 !
For me, it's just a Big step forward, as it was from the D2x up to the D3, D700
= Same MPix Count, but at least 2 Ev of improvement in DR and SNR.
Of course - the D3 was not limited to B&W, but...
nor it got that huge Resolution advantage over the D2x !
As we can only watch the DPR-Test of an old 24 MPix FF Leica-Mono...
I simulated what could be the IQ of an imx571 based Fuji PanChrome camera
.
Fujifilm PanChrome camera - imx571 Mono Sensor - DPR-test simulation at ISO 25600.
.
Sigma too could achieve such a B&W camera...
but that would be around the more expensive L-mount...
so, I would prefer it Fujifilm made !
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Since this thread has been resurrected, I wanted to correct Michael's erroneous statement above that using a Monochrome camera denies the use of programs like Silver Efex. I use it all the time with my Leica M10 Monochrom.
Im curious if anybody knows, how much R&D would it actually take in design? Can't they just take an existing body and remove the CFA? That's why B&W bodies have less noise, the CFA blocks some light to recreate color signals, without it you get about twice the amount of total photons (1 stop better SNR).
Actually the CFA is an extra step. All image sensors are monochrome by their very nature. The main effort I expect is S/W differences. Of course the set up cost for the sensor would be spread over a smaller number of units. Of course if an off the shelf sensor was used there would be no NRE for the sensor.
