External flash musings

Columbusrat · Aug 26, 2021

I've borrowed a friend's Speedlite 430EX to try on my Canon 250D. They seem to sync OK, but I'm not (yet) getting the results I'd really hope for. I was hoping that being able to have a speed faster than 1/200 sec would make the photos sharper, but...

It's OK, but if I wanted to crop tightly, it's not quite there. I thought it might be that the extra weight was making me less steady, but on some photos I can't find any area that's spot on.

Now, this was taken with the flash pointing at the subject, with a mesh diffuser, so has issues similar to using with my built-in flash & diffuser. I really need to diffuse/reflect the light, but here is maybe my main issue...

I have dodgy shoulders and I'm not generally very strong (5' tall, arms like sparrow legs, fibromyalgia), so as it is I'm finding the camera/flash combo a bit heavy and cumbersome. Adding something on top of that and I'll feel like I've got the Taj Mahal balanced on top of my camera. And for me, the most important bit of my photography is probably the enjoyment of mooching round the borders and going into quite a Zen-like state. But of course I do still want to get the best photos I can, given my limitations.

So, questions - would sticking some old tights over the flash diffuse the light more and give better results, or would I need to find a way of bouncing it? I know I could build a reflector for my built-in flash, but then I'm limited to no faster than 1/200 sec, and on sunny days I'm not sure the flash freezes the motion sufficiently (if I manage to focus on a flying bug, the wings are a blur). And why isn't my focus quite there, or is it more an effect of the harsh lighting? At hubby's suggestion I did try a wider aperture, but it didn't seem to help - and depth of field of course became more of an issue.

I had wondered about a ring flash, but hubby says they tend to give a more bright flat light - good for identifying details of bugs, but not for artistic shots (I do love bokeh). And I'm not sure if the added weight right at the end of the lens would make it awkward. Are there more compact external flashes that would be compatible with my camera? (Bearing in mind Canon having altered the hotshoe so so anything other than Canon is unlikely to work.) Would a change of body help - are there cameras that allow you to have faster speeds when using the built-in flash? Anything else I could consider?

Oh, one more thing - the time taken for the flash to recharge after a shot is a real pain when I'm trying to photograph a hoverfly that gets into the perfect pose just after I've taken a photo, and then flies off before it's recharged. If anyone has a solution to that that doesn't involve yet more bulky equipment, that would be great!

John K · Aug 26, 2021

Columbusrat said:
I've borrowed a friend's Speedlite 430EX to try on my Canon 250D. They seem to sync OK, but I'm not (yet) getting the results I'd really hope for. I was hoping that being able to have a speed faster than 1/200 sec would make the photos sharper, but...

It's OK, but if I wanted to crop tightly, it's not quite there. I thought it might be that the extra weight was making me less steady, but on some photos I can't find any area that's spot on.

Depending on the aperture the depth of field may have been too thin. Depending on the aperture and ISO the only light on the subject was the flash, so the shutter speed is irrelevant -the short duration of the flash would act as your "shutter". But the flash might not be firing fast enough to freeze motion for you...

Columbusrat said:
Now, this was taken with the flash pointing at the subject, with a mesh diffuser, so has issues similar to using with my built-in flash & diffuser. I really need to diffuse/reflect the light, but here is maybe my main issue...

I have dodgy shoulders and I'm not generally very strong (5' tall, arms like sparrow legs, fibromyalgia), so as it is I'm finding the camera/flash combo a bit heavy and cumbersome. Adding something on top of that and I'll feel like I've got the Taj Mahal balanced on top of my camera. And for me, the most important bit of my photography is probably the enjoyment of mooching round the borders and going into quite a Zen-like state. But of course I do still want to get the best photos I can, given my limitations.

So, questions - would sticking some old tights over the flash diffuse the light more and give better results, or would I need to find a way of bouncing it?

No. The simple answer is to either use a large diffuser, get the flash closer to the subject, or both. Generally the larger the light source is relative to the subject the better the diffusion. Getting the flash closer will also give you a shorter flash duration, so freezing motion becomes easier. But if you do not diffuse the flash very well, and there is a hot spot in the light that the subject sees, then no matter how large it is relative to the subject it will still act like a point source and you will lose detail in the specular areas of the scene. It is also better to get the flash off center from the lens for better shadows / shadow control.

Columbusrat said:
I know I could build a reflector for my built-in flash, but then I'm limited to no faster than 1/200 sec, and on sunny days I'm not sure the flash freezes the motion sufficiently (if I manage to focus on a flying bug, the wings are a blur).

That is gonna happen anyway, those wings are going too fast for you to freeze them with a single standard camera flash.

Columbusrat said:
And why isn't my focus quite there, or is it more an effect of the harsh lighting? At hubby's suggestion I did try a wider aperture, but it didn't seem to help - and depth of field of course became more of an issue.

Could be all of the above, but if you are having depth of field issues you want to use a smaller aperture (higher Fstop).

Columbusrat said:
I had wondered about a ring flash, but hubby says they tend to give a more bright flat light - good for identifying details of bugs, but not for artistic shots (I do love bokeh).

Actually terrible for detail even because the light from a ring flash is harsh. The flash will have no effect on Bokeh -you just need to set the camera so you can use natural light to expose the background.

Columbusrat said:
And I'm not sure if the added weight right at the end of the lens would make it awkward.

No worries there, cause the controller with the batteries is attached to the camera and that is where the weight is. But a ring flash is a terrible light source.

Columbusrat said:
Are there more compact external flashes that would be compatible with my camera? (Bearing in mind Canon having altered the hotshoe so so anything other than Canon is unlikely to work.) Would a change of body help - are there cameras that allow you to have faster speeds when using the built-in flash? Anything else I could consider?

I think getting your current flash off of the camera and onto a bracket with an off camera cord would be the best place to start. I use a macro twin flash and they are difficult to properly diffuse.

Columbusrat said:
Oh, one more thing - the time taken for the flash to recharge after a shot is a real pain when I'm trying to photograph a hoverfly that gets into the perfect pose just after I've taken a photo, and then flies off before it's recharged. If anyone has a solution to that that doesn't involve yet more bulky equipment, that would be great!

Sounds like either the flash is firing at close to full power or you need to use some NiMH batteries like Eneloop.

--
Also known as Dalantech
My Book: http://nocroppingzone.blogspot.com/2010/01/extreme-macro-art-of-patience.html
My Blog: http://www.extrememacro.com
My gallery: http://www.johnkimbler.com
Macro Tutorials: http://dalantech.deviantart.com/gallery/4122501/Tutorials
Always minimal post processing and no cropping -unless you count the viewfinder...

Columbusrat · Aug 26, 2021

Thank you so much John, that's much appreciated and very useful.

I don't think I can make the aperture smaller - it's the highest the camera will allow for the other settings. I'm not sure if a higher ISO would allow it to go smaller or not... Getting the flash closer to the bug could be tricky too, as with the Raynox 150, I'm already very close.

I'll chat with hubby later about what you've suggested, as he has a much better technical understanding than me (just not so much with macro).

John K · Aug 26, 2021

Columbusrat said:
Thank you so much John, that's much appreciated and very useful.

I don't think I can make the aperture smaller - it's the highest the camera will allow for the other settings.

The trick is to use the flash to expose the subject, and natural light to expose the background. If the magnification is high enough (close to, or over, 1x) and there is little natural light hitting the subject, then it looks like this:

[IMG width="400px" alt="Tech Specs: Canon 80D (F14, 1/125, ISO 200) + a Canon MP-E 65mm macro lens (set to 1x) + a diffused MT-26EX-RT with a Kaiser adjustable flash shoe on the "A" head (the key), E-TTL metering, -1 FEC). This is a single, uncropped, frame taken hand held. In post I used Topaz Sharpen AI and Clarity in that order. ISO and shutter speed set to expose for the natural light in the background."]

https://imgur.com/qlZ5oEX

Tech Specs: Canon 80D (F14, 1/125, ISO 200) + a Canon MP-E 65mm macro lens (set to 1x) + a diffused MT-26EX-RT with a Kaiser adjustable flash shoe on the "A" head (the key), E-TTL metering, -1 FEC). This is a single, uncropped, frame taken hand held. In post I used Topaz Sharpen AI and Clarity in that order. ISO and shutter speed set to expose for the natural light in the background.

Columbusrat said:
I'm not sure if a higher ISO would allow it to go smaller or not... Getting the flash closer to the bug could be tricky too, as with the Raynox 150, I'm already very close.

At least get it out to the end of the lens. This is what my rig looks like:

Columbusrat said:
I'll chat with hubby later about what you've suggested, as he has a much better technical understanding than me (just not so much with macro).

Check out my signature for links to my blog and tutorials.

I take some natural light closeups:

Tech Specs: Canon 80D (aperture priority F8, 1/800, ISO 800) + a Canon 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS II with IS on. E-TTL metering, (-2/3 EV). This is a single, uncropped, frame taken hand held. In post I used Topaz Sharpen AI and Clarity in that order.

Plus a lot of macro that is flash only:

[IMG width="400px" alt="Tech Specs: Canon 80D (F11, 1/250, ISO 100) + a Canon MP-E 65mm macro lens (set to 2x) + a diffused MT-26EX-RT with a Kaiser adjustable flash shoe on the "A" head (the key), E-TTL metering, -1/3 FEC). This is a single, uncropped, frame taken hand held. In post I used Topaz Sharpen AI and Clarity in that order."]

https://imgur.com/IvmzbN7

Tech Specs: Canon 80D (F11, 1/250, ISO 100) + a Canon MP-E 65mm macro lens (set to 2x) + a diffused MT-26EX-RT with a Kaiser adjustable flash shoe on the "A" head (the key), E-TTL metering, -1/3 FEC). This is a single, uncropped, frame taken hand held. In post I used Topaz Sharpen AI and Clarity in that order.

--
Also known as Dalantech
My Book: http://nocroppingzone.blogspot.com/2010/01/extreme-macro-art-of-patience.html
My Blog: http://www.extrememacro.com
My gallery: http://www.johnkimbler.com
Macro Tutorials: http://dalantech.deviantart.com/gallery/4122501/Tutorials
Always minimal post processing and no cropping -unless you count the viewfinder...

Columbusrat · Aug 26, 2021

John K said:
At least get it out to the end of the lens. This is what my rig looks like:

Hmmm, we might be getting a bit Taj Mahal... I'm wondering if I need to try out some Pringle-tube style diffusers...

... or something like https://www.amazon.co.uk/waka-Diffu...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

or https://www.amazon.co.uk/Universal-...jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

Columbusrat · Aug 26, 2021

Sorry about the long links above, which confused the posting box! The above may still be large, but at least they'd be light and relatively cheap - are they worth considering, even if not the 'perfect' solution?

gardenersassistant · Aug 26, 2021

Columbusrat said:
I have dodgy shoulders and I'm not generally very strong (5' tall, arms like sparrow legs, fibromyalgia), so as it is I'm finding the camera/flash combo a bit heavy and cumbersome. Adding something on top of that and I'll feel like I've got the Taj Mahal balanced on top of my camera. And for me, the most important bit of my photography is probably the enjoyment of mooching round the borders and going into quite a Zen-like state. But of course I do still want to get the best photos I can, given my limitations.

For small and light I suggest you search for "velcro" on this page on Mark Berkery's web site to see home made snoots he has used on built-in camera flashes. For some years Mark used this sort of arrangement on a (10 megapixel, released in 2006) bridge camera with Raynox 150 and Raynox 250. Mark produced images with that setup that made him one of my "macro heroes", and I believe he has been an inspiration to many others too. Note that he got these results with a central and rather downward facing single-flash arrangement that an on-camera-flash snoot arrangement produces.

FWIW Although I have not used a snoot like Mark has used, I do like him use a rather downward facing flash arrangement that in my case acts as a single light source (even though it uses a twin flash). For a couple of years I used a 70D with 55-250 STM with Raynox 150 and 250, with a central single-flash setup, diffusing a hot-shoe-mounted flash. I have tried a ring flash, and did not like it at all. I have tried twin flashes, separated in the normal way, the way that John uses them, but I didn't get on with that either. What works with macro is a very personal thing depending on a number of factors, the importance of which obviously varies from person to person, for example weight and balance being particularly important for you. I think the 450 gram 250D with the light and sharp 55-250 STM and a Raynox 250 is about as light as you are going to get, and an on-camera-flash snoot wouldn't add much to that.

Columbusrat · Aug 26, 2021

gardenersassistant said:
For small and light I suggest you search for "velcro" on this page on Mark Berkery's web site to see home made snoots he has used on built-in camera flashes. For some years Mark used this sort of arrangement on a (10 megapixel, released in 2006) bridge camera with Raynox 150 and Raynox 250. Mark produced images with that setup that made him one of my "macro heroes", and I believe he has been an inspiration to many others too. Note that he got these results with a central and rather downward facing single-flash arrangement that an on-camera-flash snoot arrangement produces.

Yes, I do think I should try to come up with something along those lines, at least to experiment with - though my fettling skills are rubbish! It'd be good to have something similar to try out with the Speedlite too, though, as then I have the option of faster shutter speed if I can't rely on the flash to freeze the motion.

Do you have any idea what the speed of the built-in flash would be, in 'average' conditions? I've read that a Speedlite can vary from 1/400 to 1/20,000, but don't know if a built-in flash would be similar.

John K · Aug 26, 2021

Columbusrat said:
John K said:

At least get it out to the end of the lens. This is what my rig looks like:

Click to expand...

Hmmm, we might be getting a bit Taj Mahal... I'm wondering if I need to try out some Pringle-tube style diffusers...

... or something like https://www.amazon.co.uk/waka-Diffu...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

or https://www.amazon.co.uk/Universal-...jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

I think, with both of them, you are gonna run into issues with them not being close enough to the subject if you have the flash mounted on the camera.

--
Also known as Dalantech
My Book: http://nocroppingzone.blogspot.com/2010/01/extreme-macro-art-of-patience.html
My Blog: http://www.extrememacro.com
My gallery: http://www.johnkimbler.com
Macro Tutorials: http://dalantech.deviantart.com/gallery/4122501/Tutorials
Always minimal post processing and no cropping -unless you count the viewfinder...

John K · Aug 26, 2021

Columbusrat said:
Sorry about the long links above, which confused the posting box! The above may still be large, but at least they'd be light and relatively cheap - are they worth considering, even if not the 'perfect' solution?

Check out the Home Made Diffuser for Macro Photography Group on Facebook.

Columbusrat · Aug 26, 2021

John K said:
I think, with both of them, you are gonna run into issues with them not being close enough to the subject if you have the flash mounted on the camera.

Thanks John

gardenersassistant · Aug 26, 2021

Columbusrat said:
gardenersassistant said:

For small and light I suggest you search for "velcro" on this page on Mark Berkery's web site to see home made snoots he has used on built-in camera flashes. For some years Mark used this sort of arrangement on a (10 megapixel, released in 2006) bridge camera with Raynox 150 and Raynox 250. Mark produced images with that setup that made him one of my "macro heroes", and I believe he has been an inspiration to many others too. Note that he got these results with a central and rather downward facing single-flash arrangement that an on-camera-flash snoot arrangement produces.

Click to expand...

Yes, I do think I should try to come up with something along those lines, at least to experiment with - though my fettling skills are rubbish!

Mine are not great either. I use paper/card quite a lot, and velcro (well, similar to velcro) squares, staples, with no paper and pencil design to start with or accurate measurements anywhere along the way. Just try something, adjust it or start again, adjust it or start again, etc. It's all extremely rough and ready.

Columbusrat said:
It'd be good to have something similar to try out with the Speedlite too, though, as then I have the option of faster shutter speed if I can't rely on the flash to freeze the motion.

Are you thinking of HSS (High Speed Sync, aka FP - Focal Plane - flash)? That may not give you enough power for the small apertures you want to use. Whether this is the case or not depends on how much light your diffusion arrangement loses, and how much you are prepared to raise the ISO.

HSS works by firing the flash continuously at low power while the shutter is open. That means that the amount of flash light falling on the scene decreases as the shutter speed gets faster. Here is an example with a Raynox 150 on a 55-250 STM on a 70D, with a EXII speedlite with a home-made diffuser. It uses f/22 and ISO 100 for each shot. The shutter speeds were 1/250, 1/500, 1/1000, 1/2000, 1/4000.

To get back to the brightness of the 1/250 sec image, you have to raise the ISO to roughly 400, 800, 1600 and 32000.

1/500 at ISO 400

1/1000 at ISO 800

1/2000 at ISO 1600

I/4000 at ISO 3200

Columbusrat said:
Do you have any idea what the speed of the built-in flash would be, in 'average' conditions? I've read that a Speedlite can vary from 1/400 to 1/20,000, but don't know if a built-in flash would be similar.

Unfortunately not.

--
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Flickr image collections http://www.flickr.com/photos/gardenersassistant/collections/
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fliesandflowersetc-ramblings.blogspot.com

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Columbusrat · Aug 26, 2021

gardenersassistant said:
Are you thinking of HSS (High Speed Sync, aka FP - Focal Plane - flash)? That may not give you enough power for the small apertures you want to use. Whether this is the case or not depends on how much light your diffusion arrangement loses, and how much you are prepared to raise the ISO.

HSS works by firing the flash continuously at low power while the shutter is open. That means that the amount of flash light falling on the scene decreases as the shutter speed gets faster. Here is an example with a Raynox 150 on a 55-250 STM on a 70D, with a EXII speedlite with a home-made diffuser. It uses f/22 and ISO 100 for each shot. The shutter speeds were 1/250, 1/500, 1/1000, 1/2000, 1/4000.

Yes, it's set up to use HSS - it gives plenty of light with the apertures I'm using, though whether that's the case when I've cobbled together something to redirect is another matter.

Thank you for the speed/ISO comparisons - they're really useful... or should I say illuminating? ;-) I tend to leave ISO on auto, but fix it to 1600 or 800 if it tries to use 3200 or even 6400... Though of course then I might need to adjust speed/aperture to get enough light. Or retreat to a sunnier bit of the garden.

John K · Aug 26, 2021

Columbusrat said:
gardenersassistant said:

Are you thinking of HSS (High Speed Sync, aka FP - Focal Plane - flash)? That may not give you enough power for the small apertures you want to use. Whether this is the case or not depends on how much light your diffusion arrangement loses, and how much you are prepared to raise the ISO.

HSS works by firing the flash continuously at low power while the shutter is open. That means that the amount of flash light falling on the scene decreases as the shutter speed gets faster. Here is an example with a Raynox 150 on a 55-250 STM on a 70D, with a EXII speedlite with a home-made diffuser. It uses f/22 and ISO 100 for each shot. The shutter speeds were 1/250, 1/500, 1/1000, 1/2000, 1/4000.

Click to expand...

Yes, it's set up to use HSS - it gives plenty of light with the apertures I'm using, though whether that's the case when I've cobbled together something to redirect is another matter.

Thank you for the speed/ISO comparisons - they're really useful... or should I say illuminating? ;-) I tend to leave ISO on auto, but fix it to 1600 or 800 if it tries to use 3200 or even 6400... Though of course then I might need to adjust speed/aperture to get enough light. Or retreat to a sunnier bit of the garden.

I would also add that HSS will record every little motion in the scene, yours and the subject. It is only good for completely stationary scenes. I never use it when shooting macro.

Columbusrat · Aug 26, 2021

John K said:
I would also add that HSS will record every little motion in the scene, yours and the subject. It is only good for completely stationary scenes. I never use it when shooting macro.

Ah, that's useful to know - thank you.

Columbusrat · Aug 26, 2021

Columbusrat said:
John K said:

I would also add that HSS will record every little motion in the scene, yours and the subject. It is only good for completely stationary scenes. I never use it when shooting macro.

Click to expand...

Ah, that's useful to know - thank you.

Actually - if I don't use HSS, does that mean I'll be limited to no faster than 1/200s, like I am with the built-in flash?

gardenersassistant · Aug 26, 2021

John K said:
Columbusrat said:

gardenersassistant said:

Are you thinking of HSS (High Speed Sync, aka FP - Focal Plane - flash)? That may not give you enough power for the small apertures you want to use. Whether this is the case or not depends on how much light your diffusion arrangement loses, and how much you are prepared to raise the ISO.

HSS works by firing the flash continuously at low power while the shutter is open. That means that the amount of flash light falling on the scene decreases as the shutter speed gets faster. Here is an example with a Raynox 150 on a 55-250 STM on a 70D, with a EXII speedlite with a home-made diffuser. It uses f/22 and ISO 100 for each shot. The shutter speeds were 1/250, 1/500, 1/1000, 1/2000, 1/4000.

Click to expand...

Yes, it's set up to use HSS - it gives plenty of light with the apertures I'm using, though whether that's the case when I've cobbled together something to redirect is another matter.

Thank you for the speed/ISO comparisons - they're really useful... or should I say illuminating? ;-) I tend to leave ISO on auto, but fix it to 1600 or 800 if it tries to use 3200 or even 6400... Though of course then I might need to adjust speed/aperture to get enough light. Or retreat to a sunnier bit of the garden.

Click to expand...

I would also add that HSS will record every little motion in the scene, yours and the subject. It is only good for completely stationary scenes.

Why would that be if you were using a fast shutter speed, say 1/2000 sec?

John K said:
I never use it when shooting macro.

John K · Aug 26, 2021

Columbusrat said:
John K said:

I would also add that HSS will record every little motion in the scene, yours and the subject. It is only good for completely stationary scenes. I never use it when shooting macro.

Click to expand...

Ah, that's useful to know - thank you.

If it is overcast, the subject is in the shade, or you can shade the subject then it is better to use a single burst of light to freeze the motion in a scene. As long as the shutter is at, or below, the maximum sync speed then it will have no impact on the flash exposure. The only thing you have to worry about is getting too close to the natural light exposure for the subject when trying to expose for the background. As a general rule of thumb I do not set my shutter slower than 1/125 of a second. If something in the foreground moves while the shutter is open the background will be under exposed in that area. Take a look at the "shadows" around the flower and the bee's antenna:

Looks like a bad Photoshop plug in...

When I do it right this is what it looks like:

Blue sky in the background, no "shadows".

In an earlier post you mentioned freezing wings. Good luck doing it with a single flash...

--
Also known as Dalantech
My Book: http://nocroppingzone.blogspot.com/2010/01/extreme-macro-art-of-patience.html
My Blog: http://www.extrememacro.com
My gallery: http://www.johnkimbler.com
Macro Tutorials: http://dalantech.deviantart.com/gallery/4122501/Tutorials
Always minimal post processing and no cropping -unless you count the viewfinder...

John K · Aug 26, 2021

Columbusrat said:
Columbusrat said:

John K said:

I would also add that HSS will record every little motion in the scene, yours and the subject. It is only good for completely stationary scenes. I never use it when shooting macro.

Click to expand...

Ah, that's useful to know - thank you.

Click to expand...

Actually - if I don't use HSS, does that mean I'll be limited to no faster than 1/200s, like I am with the built-in flash?

Yup, but it will not matter cause you will be using the flash to expose the subject. It will fire much faster than 1/200...

gardenersassistant · Aug 26, 2021

John K said:
If something in the foreground moves while the shutter is open the background will be under exposed in that area.

So that's what is going on. So simple. Thanks for the explanation John.

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