Full Frame vs Micro 4:3

I viewed this 2018 video, to get a perspective of how much smaller the Olympus cameras are than other cameras... The video actually compares the micro 4:3 to a full frame camera when it comes to image quality. I have neither, as I've only owned APS-C DSLR's.

While I am impressed by the size of the micro 4:3, I actually came away with a conclusion that, just perhaps, all the talk about image quality advantage of a FF camera, perhaps, just perhaps, may be a bit of "hype."

The video:


To jump straight to the image comparison, you can click to about 8:50 in the video.

Regards,

Michael
My recommendation is to download RAW files from the latest Full Frame cameras and see for yourself. Jared Polin usually offer free RAW files downloads.

Full Frame is better than M43 when it comes to image quality but the gap between them isn't as big as some manufactures make it out to be. That said both Nikon, Sony and Canon are releasing excellent Full Frame primes. So you're getting the advantage of both a big sensor and excellent glass.

M43 is usually good for practical sense when image quality isn't as important but getting the shot is.
"M43 is usually good for practical sense when image quality isn't as important but getting the shot is." I'd say that this is true, but doesn't really get to the whole story, which is that the IQ of m43 is far better than a lot of folks believe and may just be good enough to where the improvement that FF offers over it isn't even appreciated. A larger sensor camera is of course a real advantage if you're printing very large or shooting a lot in very low light, though a lot of that second part is mitigated somewhat with m43, if you're shooting still subjects and can use the IBIS (or something like a tripod, for very low light). When I bought my first m43 camera I did the research, looking at a lot of images blown up large to see just how much detail that these little cameras were capable of. I found that they were very capable and now a few bodies later and a few more generations of tech and they're even better IQ-wise.

I would love to have a FF rig too, for shooting certain kinds of things, but I find even when I'm making up good sized prints (of about 14" wide) that for the vast majority of what I do m43 works without compromise and has real advantages as far as size and cost. I can take a several lens kit of 2 fast primes, a fisheye and a couple of zooms, with my Pen F body that all fits into a super-compact bag that's just 10" on the long side... and I'd say that I spent less than $1500 overall on a very versatile kit which includes a flash that I can use off camera, stands umbrellas, etc (though nearly all of it was used).

The conventional wisdom seems to be to chase after the very best IQ, but if you're really not utilizing all of the IQ that a larger, heavier (not so much just a body paired with a smaller prime, but a whole kit), much more expensive system that you're less likely to have with you to get the shot then you might actually be better served by something that's smaller, lighter and cheaper which still might have all of the IQ that you'd ever really need...
 
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I can take a several lens kit of 2 fast primes, a fisheye and a couple of zooms, with my Pen F body that all fits into a super-compact bag that's just 10" on the long side... and I'd say that I spent less than $1500 overall on a very versatile kit which includes a flash that I can use off camera, stands umbrellas, etc (though nearly all of it was used).
And I can take just one zoom on my FF which would replace a bag or m43 primes.

BTW, you are forgetting the different look of FF with fast(er) lenses. Not just DOF but background blur. All that "reach", for example, comes with a poorly blurred background that is neither sharp nor blurred.
 
M43 is usually good for practical sense when image quality isn't as important but getting the shot is.
I don't agree with that. Comments like this are usually reserved for cameras that have mediocre to poor IQ. While not quite as good as cameras with larger sensors M43 is capable of excellent IQ.
 
Many phones now have 1/1.7 or larger main sensors. That means they have about a 2x crop difference from m4/3.

If a 2x crop from FF to 4/3 is easily dismissed as hype, then surely the difference between phones and m4/3 is also hype. So here we are with no IQ benefit for a dedicated camera at all.

Or does it only work to compare crop factors one way? Anything smaller than 4/3 is not big enough, but everything bigger is hype?
 
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Anyone who drives 5 mph faster than me is an idiot. Anyone who drives 5 mph slower than me is a moron. And why is that person going the exact same speed as me? So annoying!
 
Many phones now have 1/1.7 or larger main sensors. That means they have about a 2x crop difference from m4/3.

If a 2x crop from FF to 4/3 is easily dismissed as hype, then surely the difference between phones and m4/3 is also hype. So here we are with no IQ benefit for a dedicated camera at all.

Or does it only work to compare crop factors one way? Anything smaller than 4/3 is not big enough, but everything bigger is hype?
While I don't agree with the "the FF advantage is just hype" position, it might make sense that it only works in one direction.

Let's say for the sake of the argument that m4/3 is at the lower limit of what is good enough. Twice as good is more than good enough, but maybe the difference isn't that noticeable. But something that is only half as good as good enough is, by definition, not good enough.

Put another way, with less reliance on semantics: Let's say I need to earn $1,000 a week to pay my mortgage, eat, run my car etc - basically to get by reasonably comfortably. If I got a better job and made $2,000 I could live more comfortably but it might not be enough to get me a better house or a much better car, or buy my own space program. If the new job was going to involve a lot more stress and longer hours, it may not change my life enough to be worth it. A job paying $500 might be easy and involve shorter hours but would not be enough for me to get by - I could lose my house and car.

For some people, m4/3 is the $1,000 job and the size and weight of full frame are like the $2,000 job. A phone camera may feel a lot like a $500 job.
 
While I don't agree with the "the FF advantage is just hype" position, it might make sense that it only works in one direction.

Let's say for the sake of the argument that m4/3 is at the lower limit of what is good enough. Twice as good is more than good enough, but maybe the difference isn't that noticeable. But something that is only half as good as good enough is, by definition, not good enough.
Excellent points. For me, a 1" sensor is good enough. Anything less gives what I find unacceptable. For that reason I own a 1" super zoom, 1" pocket cam, and a Full Frame with lenses. I have no need for M43 or APSC. When I want portability, which is the vast majority of the time, I use a 1" camera. When I want max. IQ it's FF. I find FF is the top end of the spectrum because MF doesn't offer enough improvement over FF to matter to me.
 
dmanthree wrote:
FF: better IQ
Unless you want greater DoF, for instance for macro shots of insects.
Equivalence is the great equalizer. Other than resolution and other sensor particulars (i.e., all things equal), same sized aperture diameter used on either system for a given FOV and focus distance will give the same DOF and the same image quality.
 
I'm thinking that it just so happens that the presenter's examples were not well-chosen to highlight the differences.

For example, they're both shot in strong outdoor lighting, so the noise advantage of FF would not be seen. None of those shots needed particularly shallow DoF to get the desired effect, either.

I also think that he was using a pro-caliber lens on each one. A lot of users will not make that investment I wonder how they shots would have looked with consumer grade lenses? I'm thinking FF would have an advantage there as well, since less enlargement is needed to get to the final 1m print size. FF will not exaggerate any optical compromises as much.

The shots were mostly about composition, which is good. But then to draw conclusions on one format to the other, just from those four shots?

The presenter has shown that for HIS uses, MFT is just as good as FF. Maybe for a lot of us, too.

Getting back to your original points on this OP, have you decided whether you will go to MFT, FF or stick with APS-C? I bet you will stick with APS-C now.
 
You can have a nice, super capable weather resistant kit, an E-M5iii + 14-150mm f/4-5.6 with a weigh around 700g. Please find me another system- not as a dare, or provocation made towards you, but highlighting facts that M4/3 still has weight advantages and compactness at its side.
Easy. My phone beats this by a mile in terms of lightness and compactness.
Interesting, so you consider fixed lens cameras as a system camera.
 
I'm thinking that it just so happens that the presenter's examples were not well-chosen to highlight the differences.

For example, they're both shot in strong outdoor lighting, so the noise advantage of FF would not be seen. None of those shots needed particularly shallow DoF to get the desired effect, either.

I also think that he was using a pro-caliber lens on each one. A lot of users will not make that investment I wonder how they shots would have looked with consumer grade lenses? I'm thinking FF would have an advantage there as well, since less enlargement is needed to get to the final 1m print size. FF will not exaggerate any optical compromises as much.

The shots were mostly about composition, which is good. But then to draw conclusions on one format to the other, just from those four shots?

The presenter has shown that for HIS uses, MFT is just as good as FF. Maybe for a lot of us, too.

Getting back to your original points on this OP, have you decided whether you will go to MFT, FF or stick with APS-C? I bet you will stick with APS-C now.
 
You can have a nice, super capable weather resistant kit, an E-M5iii + 14-150mm f/4-5.6 with a weigh around 700g. Please find me another system- not as a dare, or provocation made towards you, but highlighting facts that M4/3 still has weight advantages and compactness at its side.
Easy. My phone beats this by a mile in terms of lightness and compactness.
Interesting, so you consider fixed lens cameras as a system camera.
Good point too and there's also for lot of us the m43 system is the best compromise between IQ and size. Something like a cell phone or even a lot of point and shoot cameras aren't great ergonomically and don't have enough/large enough on-body controls to satisfy. For a lot of folks m43 is a kind of sweet spot between size and IQ. I realize though that this "sweet spot" for other folks could be something bigger or smaller... I all depends on how you use the thing, what you do with it and what you're expectations are for IQ.

--

my flickr:
 
You can have a nice, super capable weather resistant kit, an E-M5iii + 14-150mm f/4-5.6 with a weigh around 700g. Please find me another system- not as a dare, or provocation made towards you, but highlighting facts that M4/3 still has weight advantages and compactness at its side.
Easy. My phone beats this by a mile in terms of lightness and compactness.
Interesting, so you consider fixed lens cameras as a system camera.
My phone has three lenses and cameras, some have more.
 
You can have a nice, super capable weather resistant kit, an E-M5iii + 14-150mm f/4-5.6 with a weigh around 700g. Please find me another system- not as a dare, or provocation made towards you, but highlighting facts that M4/3 still has weight advantages and compactness at its side.
Easy. My phone beats this by a mile in terms of lightness and compactness.
Interesting, so you consider fixed lens cameras as a system camera.
My phone has three lenses and cameras, some have more.
You are limited limited by space, all lenses are fixed, in other words, what you have is what you get.

Ilc's (not just MFT) have much more then three lenses available, now with mirroless, lenses for DSLRs can be adapted, further increasing choice.

Generally phones have the most common focal lengths. So if you happy with those then there is little reason to consider a ILC since you have the lenses you would have bought.
 
You can have a nice, super capable weather resistant kit, an E-M5iii + 14-150mm f/4-5.6 with a weigh around 700g. Please find me another system- not as a dare, or provocation made towards you, but highlighting facts that M4/3 still has weight advantages and compactness at its side.
Easy. My phone beats this by a mile in terms of lightness and compactness.
Interesting, so you consider fixed lens cameras as a system camera.
My phone has three lenses and cameras, some have more.
You are limited limited by space, all lenses are fixed, in other words, what you have is what you get.
Since when shooting with primes is not a "system"?
Ilc's (not just MFT) have much more then three lenses available, now with mirroless, lenses for DSLRs can be adapted, further increasing choice.

Generally phones have the most common focal lengths. So if you happy with those then there is little reason to consider a ILC since you have the lenses you would have bought.
 
You can have a nice, super capable weather resistant kit, an E-M5iii + 14-150mm f/4-5.6 with a weigh around 700g. Please find me another system- not as a dare, or provocation made towards you, but highlighting facts that M4/3 still has weight advantages and compactness at its side.
Easy. My phone beats this by a mile in terms of lightness and compactness.
Interesting, so you consider fixed lens cameras as a system camera.
My phone has three lenses and cameras, some have more.
You are limited limited by space, all lenses are fixed, in other words, what you have is what you get.
Since when shooting with primes is not a "system"?
Looks like maybe I've used the term ILC interchangeably (incorrectly) with "system".

I've never considered a fixed lens camera as a system camera, although it makes sense. Camera plus lens is a system.

I will emphasize you can use any primes that will attach to an ILC. Of course it doesn't matter if you were only ever going to use the lenses that are built into the phone.
Ilc's (not just MFT) have much more then three lenses available, now with mirroless, lenses for DSLRs can be adapted, further increasing choice.

Generally phones have the most common focal lengths. So if you happy with those then there is little reason to consider a ILC since you have the lenses you would have bought.
 
You can have a nice, super capable weather resistant kit, an E-M5iii + 14-150mm f/4-5.6 with a weigh around 700g. Please find me another system- not as a dare, or provocation made towards you, but highlighting facts that M4/3 still has weight advantages and compactness at its side.
Easy. My phone beats this by a mile in terms of lightness and compactness.
Interesting, so you consider fixed lens cameras as a system camera.
Good point too and there's also for lot of us the m43 system is the best compromise between IQ and size. Something like a cell phone or even a lot of point and shoot cameras aren't great ergonomically and don't have enough/large enough on-body controls to satisfy. For a lot of folks m43 is a kind of sweet spot between size and IQ. I realize though that this "sweet spot" for other folks could be something bigger or smaller... I all depends on how you use the thing, what you do with it and what you're expectations are for IQ.
My expectations of IQ vary depending on what I photograph. Sometimes a bridge camera will be perfectly fine, sometimes a full frame can't get me where I want to be. That's why I use multiple cameras. If I had to use one camera, I'd probably go for the APS-C as the "sweet spot". Not trying to convince anyone, just saying I don't like the idea of being limited by the sweet spot. More cameras = more fun.
 
Getting back to your original points on this OP, have you decided whether you will go to MFT, FF or stick with APS-C? I bet you will stick with APS-C now.
You are correct - I will stick with my Pentax APS-C camera - smiles. I always was going to - I was just curious as to the size of the Olympus cameras. Of course, Pentax cameras have somewhat of a reputation as already being amongst the smallest DSLRs on the market...

This is a great website to compare the sizes of 2 cameras: https://camerasize.com/
 
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Good for you for using the gear that you like. I also use the gear that I like. Sometimes it's FF, sometimes it's M43. Sometimes it's APS-C. Sometimes it's film.

I'm not sure why - you "the real word of taking pictures" - feel the need to brag about your gear to "us the virtual world of posting in forums."
Yeah, I agree... a lot of complaining about something that shouldn't really be so controversial, taking a bout the pros and cons of particular formats. I don't find such a discussion annoying at all, particularly not as annoying as the "mine is bigger" sentiment of some folks who use larger formats and seem to be insecure about their skills. I'm not going to be so presumptuous as to tout my own skills, but I will say that a lot of my favorite contemporary photography has been done with m43 and APSC gear, which to me is a lot more compelling reason to consider this stuff than some kind of chart or theoretical discussion about equivalence. The extra gains that are seen on some kind of tech chart don't always translate to a better result in the real world and there are often very good reasons why larger, more expensive gear might not be the best choice...
I tend to think that each camera has a personality.

Or to put it in more science-sounding terms, a shooting envelope.

Olympus cameras are great for birding because they're ruggedized, weather sealed and their long lenses are light weight. The crop sensor means you get more reach with lighter gear.

Full frame cameras can go to larger apertures in low light scenarios. They also have an advantage in studio shooting situations where your control over strobe and ambient exposure is important. But nobody seems to talk about practical things like this, they just post studio comparison scenes at the same ISO without thinking about how the exposure triangle works.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm in a position where I own cameras from nearly every major camera manufacturer and have tested them against each other (see link in sig). And you know what - I reach for different cameras for different situations.

"Good" skin tones SOOC JPG - Fuji X-Pro1 .

Black & White - the Ricoh GXR has a high ISO noise grain that is just amazing, though the manual focus aids are decidedly last decade.

Sunsets - Olympus Pen-F, I have to work the least hard to get their colors to what I remembered - I don't know if it's their white balance algorithms or what but their sunsets are always closest to what I saw.

Event photography - if I don't need flash, my beat up Sony A7 with Voigtlander 35mm f/1.2 - manual focus lets me compose and focus at the same time (no focus + recompose), and the large aperture gives me plenty of low light + subject isolation capabilities. (And the bokeh on the Voigtlander is great - see the RIcoh GXR link above.)

I swear if I launched camera review channel, I would call it "camera tasting notes" because I couldn't give a toss about specs.

Each camera (and camera system) has a different flavor - and sure most of us don't have the luxury of having lots of different cameras so we want the one best camera we can afford, but to openly discuss the merits of different systems - well we end up with threads like this.

--
"no one should have a camera that can't play Candy Crush Saga."
Camera JPG Portrait Shootout: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4492044
Great Cinematography: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4498434
Blog: http://sodium.nyc/blog/
Sometimes I take photos: https://www.instagram.com/sodiumstudio/
 
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As we say in America: Do you even Full Frame bro?
Bro I lift while I take pictures by using full sized full frame gear. Each subject is a rep! ;-)
Dude, I'm up to two full Nocts.

My portrait photo arm could take any three M43 shooters.

bba3951e8e3945f4aedf006cee9b5f2f.jpg



--
"no one should have a camera that can't play Candy Crush Saga."
Camera JPG Portrait Shootout: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4492044
Great Cinematography: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4498434
Blog: http://sodium.nyc/blog/
Sometimes I take photos: https://www.instagram.com/sodiumstudio/
 

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