Cartier Bresson and the necessity of good timing

Phil A Martin said:

There has been some discussion about Cartier Bresson recently and especially about his photograph - the leaping man. Here is a very interesting video about him and what makes him so great.

Clue, it has very little to do with the simplicity of his equipment or his use of film, and quite a lot to do with his skills of observation, pre-planning the shot and brilliant timing.

Enjoy!

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Thanks for posting this YT video. Looks like a great channel and will subscribe.

Smaug01 said:

Phil A Martin said:

Smaug01 said:

Smaug01 said:

<snip>

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We are spoiled now; technology has replaced skill in many instances. Don't believe me? Go shoot a roll of film; you'll find it changes your style; makes you think and plan more, and that your percentage of keepers will go WAY up. You may also find that it makes you enjoy the process of photography more, and that the tactile parts are comforting as well.

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I've shot more rolls of film than I've had hot dinners. I used to shoot weddings on an RB67. People used to like my candids as well as the formals.

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How recently have you shot film for candid-type shooting? This is what I'm talking about. It definitely affects the way one shoots.

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Not recently but it's like falling off a log and it was little different to how I now shoot digitally. And the last time I was paid to do that was yesterday, at a community gardening event. Unfortunately I'm not at liberty to share the photographs with the forum but here is the clients response to the last event I covered - "The photos are lovely, some wonderful portraits that will be very useful for reports etc."

Smaug01 said:

tbcass said:

Phil A Martin said:

Smaug01 said:

<snip>

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No it wasn't a set up but I believe he saw several other people make the attempt and this was the most successful shot he took.

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How do you know? I wouldn't take his word for it.

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Look at his contact sheets. I have this book and have seen a couple of his contact sheets. He didn't shoot more than a couple frames in pursuit of a given shot. His situational awareness and instincts were awesome.

I wish they'd put The Decisive Moment (1952) back into print; they're getting too expensive now, second-hand. I'll have to settle for Henri Cartier Bresson:

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Here's a rather wonderful if very poor quality video of his practice.

https://onphotography13.wordpress.com/2014/01/02/contact-sheets-henri-cartier-bresson/

And I've seen the contact sheet for his photograph of the leap. It's one of the few photographs that he actually cropped.

Smaug01 said:

Photographer.

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Hello123 said:

Phil A Martin said:

There has been some discussion about Cartier Bresson recently and especially about his photograph - the leaping man. Here is a very interesting video about him and what makes him so great.

Clue, it has very little to do with the simplicity of his equipment or his use of film, and quite a lot to do with his skills of observation, pre-planning the shot and brilliant timing.

Enjoy!

Click to expand...

Thanks for posting this YT video. Looks like a great channel and will subscribe.

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great, for some reason he's not everyone's cup of tea but I quite like him and he's always worth watching. He isn't just a talking head, he's a very successful social and wedding photographer in his own right.

Phil A Martin said:

There has been some discussion about Cartier Bresson recently and especially about his photograph - the leaping man. Here is a very interesting video about him and what makes him so great.

Clue, it has very little to do with the simplicity of his equipment or his use of film, and quite a lot to do with his skills of observation, pre-planning the shot and brilliant timing.

Enjoy!

Click to expand...

I changed my search terms and found this very good discussion and summing up of his photograph - Behind the Gare St. Lazare. It wasn't set up, he saw a gap in the fence and just started shooting.

https://www.khanacademy.org/humanit...esson-behind-the-gare-saint-lazare-paris-1932

Now that I have, I can tell that many/most people who have replied so far have not. There are a lot of spray and pray suggestions (including my own!), but that is not what this is about.

It's true to some extent that we could compose it the same, spray & pray, and grab The Right Frame. However, I would suggest that is not a fun way to do photography. It's fine for pros, as they have people to sort through the images for them; their job is just to get The Shot.

For we amateurs, sorting through hundreds of frames shot at 10+ fps is not my idea of fun. I've done it both ways, and developing good instincts and timing is much more rewarding.

Guys & gals: if you haven't watched the video yet, please do. It might change your response.

Smaug01 said:

Now that I have, I can tell that many/most people who have replied so far have not. There are a lot of spray and pray suggestions (including my own!), but that is not what this is about.

It's true to some extent that we could compose it the same, spray & pray, and grab The Right Frame. However, I would suggest that is not a fun way to do photography. It's fine for pros, as they have people to sort through the images for them; their job is just to get The Shot.

For we amateurs, sorting through hundreds of frames shot at 10+ fps is not my idea of fun. I've done it both ways, and developing good instincts and timing is much more rewarding.

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Too right, editing is bad enough with two or three versions let alone dozens of near identical shots.

Smaug01 said:

Guys & gals: if you haven't watched the video yet, please do. It might change your response.

--
-Jeremy
*********
"A book breaks the shackles of time."
-Carl Sagan

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BGD300V1 said:

tbcass said:

Smaug01 said:

Someone wanting to make that image today would lock focus, shoot an 8k video and grab "the decisive frame." ;-) Or a 10 fps burst.

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Or 24 FPS burst.

BGD300V1 said:

We are spoiled now; technology has replaced skill in many instances. Don't believe me? Go shoot a roll of film; you'll find it changes your style; makes you think and plan more, and that your percentage of keepers will go WAY up. You may also find that it makes you enjoy the process of photography more, and that the tactile parts are comforting as well.

Click to expand...

You are right. Back in my film days, I would use skill, luck, and knowledge of the game to get an occasional shot like this. Now with burst mode, I get it every time.

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24FPS would be a whole film pack when I was in HS



And I was only allowed to use one film pack per basketball game.

We got two for football. It was western PA.

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Is that electronic flash or a flash bulb ? What years are we talking about ?

Excellent shot anyway.

Don

Phil A Martin said:

Phil A Martin said:

There has been some discussion about Cartier Bresson recently and especially about his photograph - the leaping man. Here is a very interesting video about him and what makes him so great.

Clue, it has very little to do with the simplicity of his equipment or his use of film, and quite a lot to do with his skills of observation, pre-planning the shot and brilliant timing.

Enjoy!

Click to expand...

I changed my search terms and found this very good discussion and summing up of his photograph - Behind the Gare St. Lazare. It wasn't set up, he saw a gap in the fence and just started shooting.

https://www.khanacademy.org/humanit...esson-behind-the-gare-saint-lazare-paris-1932

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There is also a video recording of an interview he gave when he said that he did not even know the man was there before the shot. He could push the camera's lens through the fence but could not see through the viewfinder. He says it was just luck that the man appeared.

The contact for this picture shows that he cropped away the fence from the left hand side. The contact sheet from the rest of the roll of film is apparently not traceable!

I have known this picture from many, many years ago and always felt it was posed. I have never read or seen anything to make me think differently. A key point for me is: why on earth would that man (if he he were not part of the set-up) be jumping there; he clearly is not going to land anywhere other than in the water - perhaps he was just a kid at heart

:-D

Nevertheless, and regardless of whether or not it was posed, this is one of my favourite HCB pictures.

drynn said:

Phil A Martin said:

Phil A Martin said:

There has been some discussion about Cartier Bresson recently and especially about his photograph - the leaping man. Here is a very interesting video about him and what makes him so great.

Clue, it has very little to do with the simplicity of his equipment or his use of film, and quite a lot to do with his skills of observation, pre-planning the shot and brilliant timing.

Enjoy!

Click to expand...

I changed my search terms and found this very good discussion and summing up of his photograph - Behind the Gare St. Lazare. It wasn't set up, he saw a gap in the fence and just started shooting.

https://www.khanacademy.org/humanit...esson-behind-the-gare-saint-lazare-paris-1932

Click to expand...

There is also a video recording of an interview he gave when he said that he did not even know the man was there before the shot. He could push the camera's lens through the fence but could not see through the viewfinder. He says it was just luck that the man appeared.

The contact for this picture shows that he cropped away the fence from the left hand side. The contact sheet from the rest of the roll of film is apparently not traceable!

I have known this picture from many, many years ago and always felt it was posed. I have never read or seen anything to make me think differently. A key point for me is: why on earth would that man (if he he were not part of the set-up) be jumping there; he clearly is not going to land anywhere other than in the water - perhaps he was just a kid at heart

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You say "he said that he did not even know the man was there before the shot" and then claim you "always felt it was posed" and that "have never read or seen anything to make me think differently". So are you claiming that HCB was lying about not seeing the man and his luck in getting the shot? Because if his statement is true, how could it be posed? I've not read anything to suggest it was and why are we so cynical to assume that HCB was lying about the photograph?.

drynn said:

:-D

Nevertheless, and regardless of whether or not it was posed, this is one of my favourite HCB pictures.

Click to expand...

Phil A Martin said:

There has been some discussion about Cartier Bresson recently and especially about his photograph - the leaping man. Here is a very interesting video about him and what makes him so great.

Clue, it has very little to do with the simplicity of his equipment or his use of film, and quite a lot to do with his skills of observation, pre-planning the shot and brilliant timing.

Enjoy!

Click to expand...

I have the greatest respect and admiration for Cartier Bresson and his body of work.

It seems though at times viewing his contact sheets that he too used the film version of ‘spray and pray’. There are several series of 10-20 photos in candid portrait sessions where he sought to capture unique and poignant postures and expressions.

There is nothing wrong with that. But those who complain that sorting through that many digital photos is too much of a chore seem to overlook the persistence that he exercised in developing and printing each exposure of a long series to evaluate and choose a worthy photo.

D Cox said:

BGD300V1 said:

24FPS would be a whole film pack when I was in HS



And I was only allowed to use one film pack per basketball game.

We got two for football. It was western PA.

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Is that electronic flash or a flash bulb ? What years are we talking about ?

Excellent shot anyway.

Don

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Well, if I still had the camera I'd look something like this with white hair and no cigar



I graduated from that HS in 1960. It was a period of transition. That was probably taken with a flash bulb. We did get an old Heiland Strobanar when I was a senior but it required carrying a wet cell battery about 1.5 the size of a motorcycle battery. Add to that a bag of 4x5 holders and you had to be in pretty good shape. I know I used the Strobonar for football because the thin filmpack film didn't like the cold and there were sometimes static discharges when you pulled the tab fast in cold dry weather.

Here is a shot from football season.





I have some old blog entries about it and a bit about using cues to time shots at.

Old School - https://birdsnbugs.com/2013/05/07/shooting-action-old-school/

New School - https://birdsnbugs.com/2013/05/08/shooting-action-new-school/

You can see the manual for the Strobonar at https://cameramanuals.org/flashes_meters/heiland_strobonar_iv.pdf



--
I'm a photographer, Jim, not a graphic artist!
My photo blog: http://birdsnbugs.com
RF Stock Portfolio - http://www.dreamstime.com/resp129611

poppyjk said:

Phil A Martin said:

There has been some discussion about Cartier Bresson recently and especially about his photograph - the leaping man. Here is a very interesting video about him and what makes him so great.

Clue, it has very little to do with the simplicity of his equipment or his use of film, and quite a lot to do with his skills of observation, pre-planning the shot and brilliant timing.

Enjoy!

Click to expand...

I have the greatest respect and admiration for Cartier Bresson and his body of work.

It seems though at times viewing his contact sheets that he too used the film version of ‘spray and pray’. There are several series of 10-20 photos in candid portrait sessions where he sought to capture unique and poignant postures and expressions.
There is nothing wrong with that. But those who complain that sorting through that many digital photos is too much of a chore seem to overlook the persistence that he exercised in developing and printing each exposure of a long series to evaluate and choose a worthy photo.

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You're right, seeing that latest video that Phil posted. The portraits, he did some repetition. For street shots, not so much, which makes me think they were not staged.

Phil A Martin said:

You say "he said that he did not even know the man was there before the shot" and then claim you "always felt it was posed" and that "have never read or seen anything to make me think differently". So are you claiming that HCB was lying about not seeing the man and his luck in getting the shot? Because if his statement is true, how could it be posed? I've not read anything to suggest it was and why are we so cynical to assume that HCB was lying about the photograph?

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I have never seen or heard anything to make me think differently and I have seen the HCB interview.
The photograph is nothing without the jumping man (IMHO). So yes, I really do have difficulty in believing that he (HCB) suddenly decided to poke his lens through a gap in the fence to take a picture of nothing in particular, where he couldn't even use the viewfinder, and some random man just happened to decide at that split second to jump from the trellis (or whatever it is) straight into the middle of a puddle (try asking yourself, why?). And he got the perfect outcome i.e. could that picture really be improved from what it is? One of the greatest ever street photographs - again, just my opinion

HCB saying he was just lucky could be (and in my opinion, is) false modesty. I rather believe that this was a very well set-up picture - it is just my opinion, I have no evidence to support my opinion but I have seen a lot of HCB's other work. He was not some 'happy-clicker' he was a great photographer. I get the impression that a lot of work went into his pictures - less luck, more planning, more skill.

I fully understand that others will not share my opinion and will think it was all just happenchance.

drynn said:

Phil A Martin said:

You say "he said that he did not even know the man was there before the shot" and then claim you "always felt it was posed" and that "have never read or seen anything to make me think differently". So are you claiming that HCB was lying about not seeing the man and his luck in getting the shot? Because if his statement is true, how could it be posed? I've not read anything to suggest it was and why are we so cynical to assume that HCB was lying about the photograph?

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I have never seen or heard anything to make me think differently and I have seen the HCB interview.

The photograph is nothing without the jumping man (IMHO). So yes, I really do have difficulty in believing that he (HCB) suddenly decided to poke his lens through a gap in the fence to take a picture of nothing in particular, where he couldn't even use the viewfinder, and some random man just happened to decide at that split second to jump from the trellis (or whatever it is) straight into the middle of a puddle (try asking yourself, why?). And he got the perfect outcome i.e. could that picture really be improved from what it is? One of the greatest ever street photographs - again, just my opinion

HCB saying he was just lucky could be (and in my opinion, is) false modesty. I rather believe that this was a very well set-up picture - it is just my opinion, I have no evidence to support my opinion but I have seen a lot of HCB's other work. He was not some 'happy-clicker' he was a great photographer.

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Yes, a great candid photographer. If you consider all his other photographs to be genuine, why do you assume this to be set up, or are you making the claim that other photographs are also set up. In other words HCB was a fake?

drynn said:

I get the impression that a lot of work went into his pictures - less luck, more planning, more skill.

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Good photographers make their own luck. Are you sure your not saying this because you don't believe it was possible with the equipment of the time?

drynn said:

I fully understand that others will not share my opinion and will think it was all just happenchance.

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Smaug01 said:

poppyjk said:

Phil A Martin said:

There has been some discussion about Cartier Bresson recently and especially about his photograph - the leaping man. Here is a very interesting video about him and what makes him so great.

Clue, it has very little to do with the simplicity of his equipment or his use of film, and quite a lot to do with his skills of observation, pre-planning the shot and brilliant timing.

Enjoy!

Click to expand...

I have the greatest respect and admiration for Cartier Bresson and his body of work.

It seems though at times viewing his contact sheets that he too used the film version of ‘spray and pray’. There are several series of 10-20 photos in candid portrait sessions where he sought to capture unique and poignant postures and expressions.
There is nothing wrong with that. But those who complain that sorting through that many digital photos is too much of a chore seem to overlook the persistence that he exercised in developing and printing each exposure of a long series to evaluate and choose a worthy photo.

Click to expand...

You're right, seeing that latest video that Phil posted. The portraits, he did some repetition. For street shots, not so much, which makes me think they were not staged.

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Yes but each shot was the result of a personal decision about when to press the shutter and each image is radically different. That is a world of a difference between that and automatically firing off 24 fps or what ever.

Smaug01 said:

--
-Jeremy
*********
"A book breaks the shackles of time."
-Carl Sagan

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Smaug01 said:

tbcass said:

Phil A Martin said:

Smaug01 said:

<snip>

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No it wasn't a set up but I believe he saw several other people make the attempt and this was the most successful shot he took.

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How do you know? I wouldn't take his word for it.

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Look at his contact sheets. I have this book and have seen a couple of his contact sheets. He didn't shoot more than a couple frames in pursuit of a given shot. His situational awareness and instincts were awesome.

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I meant how do we know the photo wasn't staged?

Phil A Martin said:

tbcass said:

John Crowe said:

I suppose it could simply be patience. Certainly my action shots of kids and family is done in the same manner. Funny, when I take photos like his stairs and bike or stairs and child, I wait for the person to clear the scene! Same for landscapes shots. I will have to rethink this in the future.

The man running over the ladder in water, is the one I am particularly curious about. That is extremely challenging. Perhaps, like me he sets up a shot he likes, but then accidentally gets a person in the shot, and keeps that one! How, on earth, would he get the little boy in the stairway. I will wait hours for a shot, but that could take days.

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It's highly probable that the shots were set up in advance.

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If you mean he paid actors or used friends to set up shots, then you are wrong, he was a candid photographer, photographing what unfurled in front of him even when photographing friends.

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He didn't have to pay somebody but neither of us knows for sure if that shot wasn't staged. In other words, he could have asked someone to do the jump which he then photographed.

I don't believe anyone is calling him a fake.

Whether it is set up like someone would set up a studio shot or a freak of pure luck has nothing to do with the success of the image and of the photographer.

For my part I simply raised the question as to how he approached his photography, and to hopefully learn from that.

Please. Let's not side track another discussion about an awesome photographer.

Phil A Martin said:

BGD300V1 said:

tbcass said:

Smaug01 said:

Someone wanting to make that image today would lock focus, shoot an 8k video and grab "the decisive frame." ;-) Or a 10 fps burst.

Click to expand...

Or 24 FPS burst.

Phil A Martin said:

We are spoiled now; technology has replaced skill in many instances. Don't believe me? Go shoot a roll of film; you'll find it changes your style; makes you think and plan more, and that your percentage of keepers will go WAY up. You may also find that it makes you enjoy the process of photography more, and that the tactile parts are comforting as well.

Click to expand...

You are right. Back in my film days, I would use skill, luck, and knowledge of the game to get an occasional shot like this. Now with burst mode, I get it every time.

Click to expand...

24FPS would be a whole film pack when I was in HS



And I was only allowed to use one film pack per basketball game.

Click to expand...

And yet you still got a better picture than the 24 fpm shot.

Phil A Martin said:

We got two for football. It was western PA.

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The basketball photo was far easier to achieve than photographing the ball a millisecond after it was hit, nearly impossible with a single shot. Which shot you like better has no relevance. I shot these from the upper stands at a professional basketball game in Detroit back in the 80s. And I had only one 24 photo roll of film. I show these to prove I also took sports photos back in the day.