SD Quattro Infrared

JohnK said:

digitalhecht said:

EVen copy/pasting Kolari's lens hotspot database would be nice. Just sayin'.

Click to expand...

Hi digitalhecht, I'm not sure how useful that database is. For one thing, it's old and for another it lists the Sigma 50/1.4 EX DG HSM as a poor performer with regard to hot spot. I've been using that lens on a Quattro H for about a month and have not seen any evidence of hot spot. Not sure but I think IR hot spot may be dependent on camera+lens combination? Anyhoo, no problems with 50/1.4 EX on my Quattro H, nor on previous SD14.

View attachment eaf519fd4cea4bc58b2ad739a680a9cb.jpg

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Thanks, JohnK. That lens list is relevant to me as I am eyeing an SD Quattro bundled with Sigma 30mm f/1.4 DC DN (which appears to be near extinct on its own in SA mount). And that list says this lens is "hot for hotspot". If you have info on that lens, please let me know. Maybe I just forego the lens and use what manual ones I know work on my A7R II, adapted.

digitalhecht said:

JohnK said:

digitalhecht said:

EVen copy/pasting Kolari's lens hotspot database would be nice. Just sayin'.

Click to expand...

Hi digitalhecht, I'm not sure how useful that database is. For one thing, it's old and for another it lists the Sigma 50/1.4 EX DG HSM as a poor performer with regard to hot spot. I've been using that lens on a Quattro H for about a month and have not seen any evidence of hot spot. Not sure but I think IR hot spot may be dependent on camera+lens combination? Anyhoo, no problems with 50/1.4 EX on my Quattro H, nor on previous SD14.

View attachment eaf519fd4cea4bc58b2ad739a680a9cb.jpg

Click to expand...

Thanks, JohnK. That lens list is relevant to me as I am eyeing an SD Quattro bundled with Sigma 30mm f/1.4 DC DN (which appears to be near extinct on its own in SA mount). And that list says this lens is "hot for hotspot". If you have info on that lens, please let me know. Maybe I just forego the lens and use what manual ones I know work on my A7R II, adapted.

Click to expand...

When I rented a SDQ from lens Rentals with the 30mm. I think it was ok. I have found that the filter you use will significantly impact the hotspot issue. As in some filters are the cause and not the lens.

What caught me here was the 17-70mm in IR. My SA mount one doesn't have a hotspot on SD14 if I remember correctly, but my newer Contemporary EF mount one does when adapted to m43rds camera. But this maybe due to the filter or adapter. I need to test it better.

My Canon 18-35mm f1.8 has strong hotspot on both metabones speed booster and viltrox speed booster. I haven't tested yet with pass through BT2 adapter.

Oh dear, oh dear. I am obviously missing a step here...
Got my brand, spanking new SD Quattro yesterday. The good news is that in terms of color, while using an external hot mirror filter (Kolari) produces a barely perceptible cyan shift, it might be worth it to forego the constant removing and re-seating of the internal IR filter. And though focus peaking with my (dumb)adapted Pentax Asahi 50mm f/1.4 (M42) is mostly miss, this is of lesser importance than the obviously horrific results I am getting in IR!
The psychedelic (and out of focus) results I get from both 490nm (aka Hyper Color) and 590nm (Super Color) are the same, whether using foliage or grey concrete to CWB (or even leaving it to AWB).


Yikes!

The results using AWB and Kolari's IR Chrome filter (the faux Aero look) is SLIGHTLY better, it's not nearly as pleasing as what I get from my converted (Bayer) A7R II.


More magenta than red.

(Sorry for the lack of EXIF data. These were shot at about f/8-11 at 1/100, auto ISO.)
Somewhat related, I will need to order a native SA lens to get a better feel for the camera for visible light photography. But a quick comparison (different focal lengths, unfortunately) between the SDQ and my old DP1M says I still like the latter better. I had read some comments that this was the general consensus. But I needed to see it for myself, I guess. This whole effort was an attempt to combine my two loves into one device (IR and Foveon).
If only Sigma could make something with the IQ of the Merrill's with a modern EVF. If only...

These threads might help

https://www.ultravioletphotography.com/content/index.php/topic/3988-toronto-lake-shore-sdqh-kg3/


Gary was using a Kg3 filter and polarizer.

I just used the SDQ in monochrome mode with blue layer for UV and red layer for IR.

dbateman said:

These threads might help

https://www.ultravioletphotography.com/content/index.php/topic/3988-toronto-lake-shore-sdqh-kg3/

https://www.ultravioletphotography....3879-sigma-tealorange-mode-wir-chrome-filter/

Gary was using a Kg3 filter and polarizer.

I just used the SDQ in monochrome mode with blue layer for UV and red layer for IR.

Click to expand...

Thanks. I wasn't aware of the T&O mode! Luckily, mine shipped with 1.13 firmware. So I was all set there. I shot in T&O and it looks more red now:



But using any other filter (again 470nm, 590nm, or O-56) produces a muddled red mess:



I get these results no matter which mode or WB setting I choose. I am obviously doing something wrong. Again, my steps:
1) Remove the internal IR filter
2) Place external IR filter on lens
3) CW with foliage or grey (Unfortunately, setting CWB mostly fails for me too.)
What I see is a muddy red mess-so muddy, I can't even focus properly-which may explain why my CWB attempts fail.
Am I missing something? Maybe it's the lens? The same Pentax Asahi lens works swimmingly with all filters on my A7RII. TIA.

digitalhecht said:

....

But using any other filter (again 470nm, 590nm, or O-56) produces a muddled red mess:



I get these results no matter which mode or WB setting I choose. I am obviously doing something wrong. Again, my steps:
1) Remove the internal IR filter
2) Place external IR filter on lens
3) CW with foliage or grey (Unfortunately, setting CWB mostly fails for me too.)
What I see is a muddy red mess-so muddy, I can't even focus properly-which may explain why my CWB attempts fail.
Am I missing something? Maybe it's the lens? The same Pentax Asahi lens works swimmingly with all filters on my A7RII. TIA.

Click to expand...

Not the lens ... my Ashahi 24mm SMC worked well enough on my later Sigma later DSLRs (never owned a Quattro).

The muddled red mess comes from Sigma's conversion to RGB. During that conversion, the green channel gets pushed to zero, leaving a bichromatic (red and blue) image lacking in contrast and apparent detail.

Setting the Aerochrome look to one side, I find the RGB conversion in LibRaw's RawDigger a much better start. Going further, exporting layer images can get crisp results which could then merged using with layers and masks in the GIMP or equivalent.

Viewing the raw histogram in RawDigger will also show that your captures are not half as bad as you think they are.

Good luck, try not to give up just yet.

--
Pedantry is hard work, but someone has to do it ...

xpatUSA said:

<>

Setting the Aerochrome look to one side, I find the RGB conversion in LibRaw's RawDigger to be a much better start.


RawDigger RGB at left - lens 17-50mm f/2.8

Click to expand...

In the GIMP, one can select the sky and do whatever with it:


Just a quick adjustment to the RawDigger cyan sky - ignore funny colors round the foliage

:-D

--
Pedantry is hard work, but someone has to do it ...

I love these!

digitalhecht said:

I get these results no matter which mode or WB setting I choose. I am obviously doing something wrong. Again, my steps:
1) Remove the internal IR filter
2) Place external IR filter on lens
3) CW with foliage or grey (Unfortunately, setting CWB mostly fails for me too.)
What I see is a muddy red mess-so muddy, I can't even focus properly-which may explain why my CWB attempts fail.
Am I missing something? Maybe it's the lens? The same Pentax Asahi lens works swimmingly with all filters on my A7RII. TIA.

Click to expand...

The sdQ has a custom white balance setting where you pick the degrees Kelvin. You can do this "live" and watch the viewfinder/rear screen for changes.

I didn't have much luck trying to set a custom WB by taking a picture with the sdQ. This WB capture method actually seemed to work better with the SD1M.

The sdQ has a monochrome mode for the viewfinder, IIRC, which helps a lot. It gets rid of the red.

In my experimentation, the SD1M seemed to produce better IR images than the sdQ. However, the sdQ is much easier to use (live view) and it sure seems that the SD1M has a light leak issue of some sort at the viewfinder that influences the exposure metering.

I found the difficulty of matching the OE dust protector for color images to be a pain in the butt. The Kolari Vision hot mirror isn't quite there. I felt that having 2 cameras (one with, one without the dust protector) would be a better approach, but I haven't bought one yet and probably won't.

danski0224 said:

The sdQ has a custom white balance setting where you pick the degrees Kelvin. You can do this "live" and watch the viewfinder/rear screen for changes.

Click to expand...

Thanks @danski0224. This AM I used a Nikon O-56 on my full spectrum-converted A7RII. I decided to try setting the WB as used on the Sony (3100K) on my SDQ (and same filter) in both STD and T&O modes and what I get in both cases is a red muddy mess in the EVF/LCD where I can barely set focus (focus peaking basically barely works in IR-even in yellow). Oddly, I see no changes in the preview no matter which WB setting or color temp I choose. The only changes I can see is if I choose either Cine or Mono mode.

danski0224 said:

The sdQ has a monochrome mode for the viewfinder, IIRC, which helps a lot. It gets rid of the red.

Click to expand...

So it has a mono mode for the EVF that doesn't affect the actual color setting of the photo? If there is such a mode, I am unable to find it, or any evidence of it via Google search. I can only get mono in the EVF by actually putting the color mode into Mono.

digitalhecht said:

I decided to try setting the WB as used on the Sony (3100K) on my SDQ (and same filter) in both STD and T&O modes and what I get in both cases is a red muddy mess in the EVF/LCD

Click to expand...

I tried to explain that here:


Let us know if you need any clarification ...

xpatUSA said:

digitalhecht said:

....

But using any other filter (again 470nm, 590nm, or O-56) produces a muddled red mess:



I get these results no matter which mode or WB setting I choose. I am obviously doing something wrong. Again, my steps:
1) Remove the internal IR filter
2) Place external IR filter on lens
3) CW with foliage or grey (Unfortunately, setting CWB mostly fails for me too.)
What I see is a muddy red mess-so muddy, I can't even focus properly-which may explain why my CWB attempts fail.
Am I missing something? Maybe it's the lens? The same Pentax Asahi lens works swimmingly with all filters on my A7RII. TIA.

Click to expand...

Not the lens ... my Ashahi 24mm SMC worked well enough on my later Sigma later DSLRs (never owned a Quattro).

The muddled red mess comes from Sigma's conversion to RGB. During that conversion, the green channel gets pushed to zero, leaving a bichromatic (red and blue) image lacking in contrast and apparent detail.

Setting the Aerochrome look to one side, I find the RGB conversion in LibRaw's RawDigger a much better start. Going further, exporting layer images can get crisp results which could then merged using with layers and masks in the GIMP or equivalent.

Viewing the raw histogram in RawDigger will also show that your captures are not half as bad as you think they are.

Good luck, try not to give up just yet.

Click to expand...

OK, xpat. Thanks for your help! Making progress, I think...
Amazingly, my Sigma 17-70 arrived today just two days after ordering from Japan on eBay (WHOOT!). So at least now I can take pictures somewhat blindly, confident they will at least be in focus.
I took two quick snaps with a 590nm (aka Super Color) filter at 3100K in STD mode. In-camera, they look the usual, green channel-less mess. Opening the raw files in RawDigger, then rendering them as 5 different TIFFs they look like this (in Photoshop):





So what are the next steps to obtaining that nice False color/white foliage look (in RGB, not mono).
If nothing else, the native SA lens has convinced me to keep the SDQ over my DP1M for visible light photography. So it will be on the auction block soon.

digitalhecht said:

xpatUSA said:

digitalhecht said:

....

But using any other filter (again 470nm, 590nm, or O-56) produces a muddled red mess:



I get these results no matter which mode or WB setting I choose. I am obviously doing something wrong. Again, my steps:
1) Remove the internal IR filter
2) Place external IR filter on lens
3) CW with foliage or grey (Unfortunately, setting CWB mostly fails for me too.)
What I see is a muddy red mess-so muddy, I can't even focus properly-which may explain why my CWB attempts fail.
Am I missing something? Maybe it's the lens? The same Pentax Asahi lens works swimmingly with all filters on my A7RII. TIA.

Click to expand...

Not the lens ... my Ashahi 24mm SMC worked well enough on my later Sigma later DSLRs (never owned a Quattro).

The muddled red mess comes from Sigma's conversion to RGB. During that conversion, the green channel gets pushed to zero, leaving a bichromatic (red and blue) image lacking in contrast and apparent detail.

Setting the Aerochrome look to one side, I find the RGB conversion in LibRaw's RawDigger a much better start. Going further, exporting layer images can get crisp results which could then merged using with layers and masks in the GIMP or equivalent.

Viewing the raw histogram in RawDigger will also show that your captures are not half as bad as you think they are.

Good luck, try not to give up just yet.

Click to expand...

OK, xpat. Thanks for your help! Making progress, I think...
Amazingly, my Sigma 17-70 arrived today just two days after ordering from Japan on eBay (WHOOT!). So at least now I can take pictures somewhat blindly, confident they will at least be in focus.
I took two quick snaps with a 590nm (aka Super Color) filter at 3100K in STD mode. In-camera, they look the usual, green channel-less mess. Opening the raw files in RawDigger, then rendering them as 5 different TIFFs they look like this (in Photoshop):

Click to expand...

Nice presentation of your results. So the 590nm is almost a red filter and presumably passing IR also? Like the Hoya R25A for example.

digitalhecht said:

So what are the next steps to obtaining that nice False color/white foliage look (in RGB, not mono).

Click to expand...

With the blocking of much of the wavelengths below say orange, there would not be much in terms of green and blue captured, so my inclination in this case would be to take the red layer as a grayscale image and work on it to get the white foliage looking right and then to apply some false color in the lower tones by means of luminosity masking in photoshop.

In the images above, the shadows are indicating that the sun is from camera-left but for IR work it might better to have the sun above and behind you.

digitalhecht said:

If nothing else, the native SA lens has convinced me to keep the SDQ over my DP1M for visible light photography. So it will be on the auction block soon.

Click to expand...

I had the 17-70mm Contemporary lens and it was certainly good enough for IR work.

--
Pedantry is hard work, but someone has to do it ...

xpatUSA said:

digitalhecht said:

xpatUSA said:

digitalhecht said:

....

But using any other filter (again 470nm, 590nm, or O-56) produces a muddled red mess:



I get these results no matter which mode or WB setting I choose. I am obviously doing something wrong. Again, my steps:
1) Remove the internal IR filter
2) Place external IR filter on lens
3) CW with foliage or grey (Unfortunately, setting CWB mostly fails for me too.)
What I see is a muddy red mess-so muddy, I can't even focus properly-which may explain why my CWB attempts fail.
Am I missing something? Maybe it's the lens? The same Pentax Asahi lens works swimmingly with all filters on my A7RII. TIA.

Click to expand...

Not the lens ... my Ashahi 24mm SMC worked well enough on my later Sigma later DSLRs (never owned a Quattro).

The muddled red mess comes from Sigma's conversion to RGB. During that conversion, the green channel gets pushed to zero, leaving a bichromatic (red and blue) image lacking in contrast and apparent detail.

Setting the Aerochrome look to one side, I find the RGB conversion in LibRaw's RawDigger a much better start. Going further, exporting layer images can get crisp results which could then merged using with layers and masks in the GIMP or equivalent.

Viewing the raw histogram in RawDigger will also show that your captures are not half as bad as you think they are.

Good luck, try not to give up just yet.

Click to expand...

OK, xpat. Thanks for your help! Making progress, I think...
Amazingly, my Sigma 17-70 arrived today just two days after ordering from Japan on eBay (WHOOT!). So at least now I can take pictures somewhat blindly, confident they will at least be in focus.
I took two quick snaps with a 590nm (aka Super Color) filter at 3100K in STD mode. In-camera, they look the usual, green channel-less mess. Opening the raw files in RawDigger, then rendering them as 5 different TIFFs they look like this (in Photoshop):

Click to expand...

Nice presentation of your results. So the 590nm is almost a red filter and presumably passing IR also? Like the Hoya R25A for example.

Click to expand...

Yes. The 590nm filter I have is a red filter. But I don't know if it is also passing IR.

xpatUSA said:

With the blocking of much of the wavelengths below say orange, there would not be much in terms of green and blue captured, so my inclination in this case would be to take the red layer as a grayscale image and work on it to get the white foliage looking right and then to apply some false color in the lower tones by means of luminosity masking in photoshop.

Click to expand...

OK. So if I use the image above called "Raw Channel R". But once in grayscale (and it already is exported in gs directly from Raw Digger), don't you need to change the image to RGB? I don't understand how channel swapping can work on a grayscale image.

digitalhecht said:

xpatUSA said:

digitalhecht said:

xpatUSA said:

digitalhecht said:

....

But using any other filter (again 470nm, 590nm, or O-56) produces a muddled red mess:



I get these results no matter which mode or WB setting I choose. I am obviously doing something wrong. Again, my steps:
1) Remove the internal IR filter
2) Place external IR filter on lens
3) CW with foliage or grey (Unfortunately, setting CWB mostly fails for me too.)
What I see is a muddy red mess-so muddy, I can't even focus properly-which may explain why my CWB attempts fail.
Am I missing something? Maybe it's the lens? The same Pentax Asahi lens works swimmingly with all filters on my A7RII. TIA.

Click to expand...

Not the lens ... my Ashahi 24mm SMC worked well enough on my later Sigma later DSLRs (never owned a Quattro).

The muddled red mess comes from Sigma's conversion to RGB. During that conversion, the green channel gets pushed to zero, leaving a bichromatic (red and blue) image lacking in contrast and apparent detail.

Setting the Aerochrome look to one side, I find the RGB conversion in LibRaw's RawDigger a much better start. Going further, exporting layer images can get crisp results which could then merged using with layers and masks in the GIMP or equivalent.

Viewing the raw histogram in RawDigger will also show that your captures are not half as bad as you think they are.

Good luck, try not to give up just yet.

Click to expand...

OK, xpat. Thanks for your help! Making progress, I think...
Amazingly, my Sigma 17-70 arrived today just two days after ordering from Japan on eBay (WHOOT!). So at least now I can take pictures somewhat blindly, confident they will at least be in focus.
I took two quick snaps with a 590nm (aka Super Color) filter at 3100K in STD mode. In-camera, they look the usual, green channel-less mess. Opening the raw files in RawDigger, then rendering them as 5 different TIFFs they look like this (in Photoshop):

Click to expand...

Nice presentation of your results. So the 590nm is almost a red filter and presumably passing IR also? Like the Hoya R25A for example.

Click to expand...

Yes. The 590nm filter I have is a red filter. But I don't know if it is also passing IR.

digitalhecht said:

With the blocking of much of the wavelengths below say orange, there would not be much in terms of green and blue captured, so my inclination in this case would be to take the red layer as a grayscale image and work on it to get the white foliage looking right and then to apply some false color in the lower tones by means of luminosity masking in photoshop.

Click to expand...

OK. So if I use the image above called "Raw Channel R". But once in grayscale (and it already is exported in gs directly from Raw Digger),

Click to expand...

You appear to be assuming that the channel exports from RD are single channel TIFFs. You exported the raw composite in grayscale but it is a 3-channel image with each pixel having equal values. If your raw channel R is the same file size (MB, not MP) then it too is 3-channel RGB where R=G=B.

digitalhecht said:

don't you need to change the image to RGB?

Click to expand...

[edit] just tested on my copy of RD - single channel is much smaller file size than raw composite - I need to find out more - I'll be baaack ...

... yes, the channel exports are true grayscale (single pixel values, not three). So yes, a change to RGB would be needed if we're going to play with colorizing, split-colors, etc.[/edit]

digitalhecht said:

I don't understand how channel swapping can work on a grayscale image.

Click to expand...

I understand but a grayscale image is not necessarily a single-channel image.

HTH.

BTW, I did not suggest channel-swapping which will have no effect on a true grayscale RGB image.

--
Pedantry is hard work, but someone has to do it ...

digitalhecht said:

digitalhecht said:

The sdQ has a custom white balance setting where you pick the degrees Kelvin. You can do this "live" and watch the viewfinder/rear screen for changes.

Click to expand...

Thanks @danski0224. This AM I used a Nikon O-56 on my full spectrum-converted A7RII. I decided to try setting the WB as used on the Sony (3100K) on my SDQ (and same filter) in both STD and T&O modes and what I get in both cases is a red muddy mess in the EVF/LCD where I can barely set focus (focus peaking basically barely works in IR-even in yellow). Oddly, I see no changes in the preview no matter which WB setting or color temp I choose. The only changes I can see is if I choose either Cine or Mono mode.

digitalhecht said:

The sdQ has a monochrome mode for the viewfinder, IIRC, which helps a lot. It gets rid of the red.

Click to expand...

So it has a mono mode for the EVF that doesn't affect the actual color setting of the photo? If there is such a mode, I am unable to find it, or any evidence of it via Google search. I can only get mono in the EVF by actually putting the color mode into Mono.

Click to expand...

If you shoot in Monochrome mode, you get BandW jpegs, but the raw files have all the information the sensor sees, which is three colors. You can make color images from the raw files of Monochrome photos . . . if you shoot in RAW+JPG mode.

Thanks to all who helped me out here. After much testing, I have decided to keep my IR and Foveon love separate-mostly to do with workflow and results. I'd like to think I gave it the old college try. Unfortunately, in the process of swapping the internal SDQ filter, despite my best efforts at dry blowing (via Giotto Rocket) before every re-seat, it appears my beloved Foveon sensor has become a dust magnet! So for this reason alone, I am abandoning this effort. (I may just keep my DP1M after all.) So I am going to start a separate thread regarding cleaning. Again, HUGE thank you all who chimed in here, especially expatUSA and dbateman. The interwebs really are a friendly place after all...