SD Quattro Infrared

[xpatUSA]

Since I do a lot of IR vs color it is almost worth it for me to buy another camera body for color.

--
lincolncastricone.photodeck.com

You can use an external "hot mirror" filter- it will essentially do the same thing as the Sigma dust protector. These are available from several manufacturers/vendors, one is Kolari Vision. Kolari Vision sort of specializes in IR accessories and conversions.

Do you think that "essentially the same thing" is good enough?

I ask because my SD hot mirrors are dichroic filters with very sharp cut-offs at UV and NIR and wonder if the Kolari Vision products are close enough. Any links to transmission curves?

Here is an SD14 curve, upside down because it's an absorption curve:

--
"What we've got hyah is Failyah to Communicate": 'Cool Hand Luke' 1967.
Ted

 

[danski0224]

Do you think that "essentially the same thing" is good enough?

I ask because my SD hot mirrors are dichroic filters with very sharp cut-offs at UV and NIR and wonder if the Kolari Vision products are close enough. Any links to transmission curves?

Here is an SD14 curve, upside down because it's an absorption curve:

I do know that I'm not qualified to answer that

There is some info comparing Kolari to Tiffen hot mirrors, and the Kolari is better. I would assume that they could provide the information you seek.

This is a resized JPEG, taken with a Kolari hot mirror. Very little done with SPP and converted to a JPEG, and resized using RIOT.

Color with Kolari Vision hot mirror filter

Same flower, but taken as a full spectrum IR and converted to monochrome in SPP

Full spectrum IR

 

[Lincoln Castricone]

Yes, zip. That's why a clear dust protector would be of great benefit.

 

[Lincoln Castricone]

Hi Lincoln: Thanks for the samples. It would be nice to see the first one in full-size hi-rez.

A few questions. Did you leave the channel wheel set to default (in center) and leave all the sliders at zero (which I believe you indicated). Also how did you AF ( filter on or filter off) and what meter adjustmens did you do.

--
http://www.rickdecker.photography
http://www.silveroaksranch.com
http://www.pbase.com/rickdecker

full rez jpg 15 mb

No adjustments in SPP including channel wheel. AF was with filter on and there were no meter adjustments. The SDQ was in P mode.

--
lincolncastricone.photodeck.com

 

[Lincoln Castricone]

I like this a lot!!

 

[Lincoln Castricone]

Yes, I tried this with the Sigma DP2M. Had a hell of a time finding an on the kens filter for color. Finally gave up and used the camera for IR with a Hoya 72 filter, and purchased another camera for color. BTW the DP2M was the best IQ IR camera I have used.

 

[rick decker]

Hi Lincoln:

Thanks for the full size sample. It is pretty much what I expected - lots of noise. I have been playing around with IR and have had the same noise issues.

Rick

 

[Lincoln Castricone]

Got noise? Oh yeah!!
lincolncastricone.photodeck.com

 

[cavemanjason]

Cool shot mate.

I am curious why did you put the filter on the Hoya R 72 IR filter if you took off the infernal filter?

Also do you know what nm range the sigma H captures without the internal filter?

 

[xpatUSA]

Cool shot mate.

Welcome to the Forum, Jason(?).

Lincoln posted 11 months ago, so might not respond.

I am curious why did you put the filter on the Hoya R 72 IR filter if you took off the [internal] filter?

Also do you know what nm range the [Sigma sd Quattro H] captures without the internal filter?

All Sigma interchangeable lens models except the SD9 capture from about 350nm to about 1150nm without the internal filter.

Lincoln wanted to capture IR (over 700nm) only, so he put a Hoya R 72 on the lens to block UV/visible wavelengths.

--
"What we've got hyah is Failyah to Communicate": 'Cool Hand Luke' 1967.

 

[cavemanjason]

That makes all so much sense now hahaha

Thank you for replying XPATUSA

 

[cavemanjason]

Also is it a detriment to the image to have a broader NM spectrum captured?

I would assume its just personal preference?

Or a better question would be how does capturing a wider NM range effect the IR process?

 

[xpatUSA]

Also is it [detrimental] to the image to have a broader [nm] spectrum captured?

That depends on the desired output. An easy example is that, if you only want to capture IR (say over 720nm), then including the visible part of the spectrum is detrimental. OTOH if you want to include visible+IR wavelengths but not "haze" (UV), it would pay to put a daylight filter on the lens, in other words less detrimental by the capture of a narrower spectrum.

I would assume its just personal preference?

Correct. That preference being a "desired output", I assume.

Or a better question would be how does capturing a wider [nm] range [affect] the IR process?

The broader the spectrum captured below say 720nm, the lower is the captured proportion of IR to visible/UV.

Leaves are a good example:

With say an IR 720-1150nm capture, sunlit leaves will have a good contrast vs. non-IR stuff in the final image.

With a 'full-spectrum' 350-1150nm capture, there will be much less contrast because the non-IR stuff will be exposed a lot more.

It's no different in principle to using colored filters in black-and-white photography for various effects, not that I've ever done that.

--
"What we've got hyah is Failyah to Communicate": 'Cool Hand Luke' 1967.

 

[digitalhecht]

Apologies for resurrecting this thread. I have been a hobbyist IR shooter for about 10 years now. My last few cameras have been mirrorless cameras converted to full spectrum. My current one is an A7R II. I am also a big Foveon fan and have owned several Foveon models over the years. (I was not happy with the IR results I got with my old SD1M with filter removed and have since sold it. I do still have a great condition DP1M.)
I am considering selling both the A7R II and DP1M to converge to a Quattro SD. So my questions regarding IR shooting with it are:

1) Do I understand correctly that removing the built-in IR filter basically turns the SD into a full spectrum camera? And that using an external hot mirror filter (e.g. Tiffen or Kolari) basically replaces the internal one for visible spectrum photography?

2) For shooting color IR, I simply swap said hot mirror filter with IR filter of my choice (590nm, 720nm, 830nm, etc)? Or am I limited to monochrome only?



3) If yes to color, can the latest Hyper Color (470nm) and/or Kolari's IR Chrome filter be used with this setup?

Many thanks in advance. It's hard to get discussions going around this rather esoteric subject!

Ed

 

[SigmaTog]

Apologies for resurrecting this thread. I have been a hobbyist IR shooter for about 10 years now. My last few cameras have been mirrorless cameras converted to full spectrum. My current one is an A7R II. I am also a big Foveon fan and have owned several Foveon models over the years. (I was not happy with the IR results I got with my old SD1M with filter removed and have since sold it. I do still have a great condition DP1M.)
I am considering selling both the A7R II and DP1M to converge to a Quattro SD. So my questions regarding IR shooting with it are:
1) Do I understand correctly that removing the built-in IR filter basically turns the SD into a full spectrum camera? And that using an external hot mirror filter (e.g. Tiffen or Kolari) basically replaces the internal one for visible spectrum photography?

2) For shooting color IR, I simply swap said hot mirror filter with IR filter of my choice (590nm, 720nm, 830nm, etc)? Or am I limited to monochrome only?

3) If yes to color, can the latest Hyper Color (470nm) and/or Kolari's IR Chrome filter be used with this setup?

Many thanks in advance. It's hard to get discussions going around this rather esoteric subject!

Ed

Ed, Foveon & Bayer sensors handle IR very differently.
The Quattro you can remove the 'Hot Mirror' easily as a normal cleaning process & can be replaced again easily, there is no reason to use any other hot mirror.
You can then use any filter of your choice for various IR effects.

You could benefit from visiting & perhaps joining the UVP forum at ....

UltravioletPhotography

There are many who do IR photography with Bayer & Foveon cameras.

Posts by GaryR & Christoph, you should find interesting for starters.

Cheers

Col

 

[xpatUSA]

<>
I am considering selling both the A7R II and DP1M to converge to a [sd Quattro]. So my questions regarding IR shooting with it are:

1) Do I understand correctly that removing the built-in IR filter basically turns the [sd Quattro] into a full spectrum camera?

Correct, Ed.

And that using an external hot mirror filter (e.g. Tiffen or Kolari) basically replaces the internal one for visible spectrum photography?

Correct in theory. In practice, you get a slight blue cast from the Kolari.

Remember that the Kolari is a optical glass filter, while the filter you remove from the camera is a dichroic. B+W provides a dichroic for the lens but it is not suitable for a wide-angle lens due to dichroic filters being sensitive to incident angle of the rays.

Also be aware that color filters may include IR wavelengths, some do not and some only partially. I would be glad to help with further information.

2) For shooting color IR, I simply swap said hot mirror filter with IR filter of my choice (590nm, 720nm, 830nm, etc)?

Correct if I understand your intention. My experience with filters that include visible light, e.g. 590nm, has not been particularly satisfying to me, and neither have the classic yellow, orange or red filters. My personal preference is for no filter on the lens (full spectrum) with color adjustment in post.

Or am I limited to monochrome only?

No.

3) If yes to color, can the latest Hyper Color (470nm) and/or Kolari's IR Chrome filter be used with this setup?

Yes.

Are you seeking the Kodak Aerochrome look, by any chance? @Gary Radford can help you with that ...

--
Pedantry is hard work, but someone's gotta do it ...

 

[digitalhecht]

Apologies for resurrecting this thread. I have been a hobbyist IR shooter for about 10 years now. My last few cameras have been mirrorless cameras converted to full spectrum. My current one is an A7R II. I am also a big Foveon fan and have owned several Foveon models over the years. (I was not happy with the IR results I got with my old SD1M with filter removed and have since sold it. I do still have a great condition DP1M.)
I am considering selling both the A7R II and DP1M to converge to a Quattro SD. So my questions regarding IR shooting with it are:
1) Do I understand correctly that removing the built-in IR filter basically turns the SD into a full spectrum camera? And that using an external hot mirror filter (e.g. Tiffen or Kolari) basically replaces the internal one for visible spectrum photography?

2) For shooting color IR, I simply swap said hot mirror filter with IR filter of my choice (590nm, 720nm, 830nm, etc)? Or am I limited to monochrome only?

3) If yes to color, can the latest Hyper Color (470nm) and/or Kolari's IR Chrome filter be used with this setup?

Many thanks in advance. It's hard to get discussions going around this rather esoteric subject!

Ed

Ed, Foveon & Bayer sensors handle IR very differently.
The Quattro you can remove the 'Hot Mirror' easily as a normal cleaning process & can be replaced again easily, there is no reason to use any other hot mirror.
You can then use any filter of your choice for various IR effects.

You could benefit from visiting & perhaps joining the UVP forum at ....
https://www.ultravioletphotography.com/content/
There are many who do IR photography with Bayer & Foveon cameras.

Posts by GaryR & Christoph, you should find interesting for starters.

Cheers

Col

Thanks very much, Col. I have been looking for such a forum on and off for years. So this is great! I have applied and look forward to participating.

 

[xpatUSA]

You could benefit from visiting & perhaps joining the UVP forum at ....
https://www.ultravioletphotography.com/content/
There are many who do IR photography with Bayer & Foveon cameras.

Posts by GaryR & Christoph, you should find interesting for starters.

Cheers

Col

Thanks very much, Col. I have been looking for such a forum on and off for years. So this is great! I have applied and look forward to participating.

You might also find the work of Dr. Klaus Schmitt interesting.

Bidens ferulifolia (Apache baggarticks) multispectral

Bidens ferulifolia in human vision, reflected UV, simulated bee and butterfly vision (left to right, top to bottom)

openphotographyforums.com

 

[digitalhecht]

<>
I am considering selling both the A7R II and DP1M to converge to a [sd Quattro]. So my questions regarding IR shooting with it are:

1) Do I understand correctly that removing the built-in IR filter basically turns the [sd Quattro] into a full spectrum camera?

Correct, Ed.

And that using an external hot mirror filter (e.g. Tiffen or Kolari) basically replaces the internal one for visible spectrum photography?

Correct in theory. In practice, you get a slight blue cast from the Kolari.

Remember that the Kolari is a optical glass filter, while the filter you remove from the camera is a dichroic. B+W provides a dichroic for the lens but it is not suitable for a wide-angle lens due to dichroic filters being sensitive to incident angle of the rays.

Also be aware that color filters may include IR wavelengths, some do not and some only partially. I would be glad to help with further information.

2) For shooting color IR, I simply swap said hot mirror filter with IR filter of my choice (590nm, 720nm, 830nm, etc)?

Correct if I understand your intention. My experience with filters that include visible light, e.g. 590nm, has not been particularly satisfying to me, and neither have the classic yellow, orange or red filters. My personal preference is for no filter on the lens (full spectrum) with color adjustment in post.

Or am I limited to monochrome only?

No.

3) If yes to color, can the latest Hyper Color (470nm) and/or Kolari's IR Chrome filter be used with this setup?

Yes.

Are you seeking the Kodak Aerochrome look, by any chance? @Gary Radford can help you with that ...

Thanks, expatUSA. Thanks for providing such a thorough response to my queries. This post should be a stickie! I AM looking for the Kodak Aerochrome look. Despite many tips and tutorials (and different camera/filter combos) over the years, I have rarely been happy with my results. Most of the things I see on Instagram blow mine out of the water, in terms of color and tonality. I might add that in all the years I have been coming here to DPR and the forums, of all the specialty threads, one for IR Photography seems to be a glaring omission. Off the bat, some sort of stickie and/or matrix for IR techniques (e.g. filter types, WB settings/techniques, post-processing actions/techniques, etc) would be a great asset there, maybe separate ones for Foveon and Bayer sensors. EVen copy/pasting Kolari's lens hotspot database would be nice. Just sayin'.

 

[JohnK]

EVen copy/pasting Kolari's lens hotspot database would be nice. Just sayin'.

Hi digitalhecht, I'm not sure how useful that database is. For one thing, it's old and for another it lists the Sigma 50/1.4 EX DG HSM as a poor performer with regard to hot spot. I've been using that lens on a Quattro H for about a month and have not seen any evidence of hot spot. Not sure but I think IR hot spot may be dependent on camera+lens combination? Anyhoo, no problems with 50/1.4 EX on my Quattro H, nor on previous SD14.

View attachment eaf519fd4cea4bc58b2ad739a680a9cb.jpg

--
JohnK
Off the record.