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Roadmap of future X series Professional bodies/lenses

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dp20210116 said:
Tom Schum said:
There is still a controversy whether the sensor in the X-H1 is not as good as the one in the X-T4. Good hard data says the X-H1 sensor is better in low light!
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it is not about single shot of a static target ... 24mp sensor has slower readouts leading in combination with older CPU (and one, not even 2 of them) to slower AF (specifically slower AF-C), worse subject detection/recognition (poor FD/eye AF, etc), worse video specs, less FPS (even if you or me do not need that still it is specs), etc... and yes - we have Fuji hinting that there is not enough "memory" to bring some feature updates... "memory" not enough in a flagship camera, Karl !!! they knew all that because X-T3 was already designed almost in parallel... and yet instead of taking a pause to supplant X-H1 they decided to scam (sic !) the customers
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Oops, I'm a still image guy, would have been happy with the X-H1 if it weren't so large and heavy. But that's just me. Still image people are becoming a minority in the user market these days I think.

The big deal about the X-H1 was the IBIS, Fuji's first effort in this area. Wasn't most of the rest of it same as the X-T2, except some video interconnect? It seems to me (not one who owns the X-H1) that it did its job pretty well for a couple years.

Usually if I develop a dislike for a certain camera manufacturer, as I did for Canon a few years ago, I just go out and buy a different brand. I could go on the Canon forum and spend time denigrating the product, but would this really accomplish anything?

You know enough about Fuji to pick a better camera to buy. Good luck with that!
 
dp20210116 said:
Old Timer63 said:
Well, I have the X-H1 and never could understand why it was taken out of production so early.
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because it makes not sense to make such body when you can't sell it for the price Fuji was wrong about... and it makes no sense to manufacture more expensive body to sell it below X-T* bodies with newer sensor, newer CPUs, more memory.
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I think a lot of customers got a really great deal on the X-H1 there near the end of the product run. Those prices were simply amazing. I'm guessing a lot of them are still very happy with it.
 
The word "flagship" seems to mean too many different things to too many people. I like the word but I think I need to stop using it.
 
Jerry-astro said:
while I patiently wait for my X-H1's successor.
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that successor will only come if Fuji finds a way to get a sensor/CPU/memory there that will not find a way into X-T* line... which I doubt...

because Fuji does not have a marketshare (or willing to invest money to grab it) _AND_ ability to charge big prices for APS-C camera to have a totally separate new sensor for X-H* line that will not find its way into the next X-T* few month later if not earlier :-) ...

barring of course sudden appearance of "organic sensors" which is not some off the shelf sensor made by Sony Semiconductor... I see this as the only way...

any off the shelf 8K sensor from Sony will be in next X-T* line camera (even before X-H2)

so X-H2 coupled with the story of what happened with X-H1 will not generate enough sales...

what Fuji can do additionally ? follow E-M1x route with more CPUs and embedded vertical grip ? again - Olympus example shows that it will not be sold well... there are buyers, but simply not enough ...
 
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Tom Schum said:
dp20210116 said:
Old Timer63 said:
Well, I have the X-H1 and never could understand why it was taken out of production so early.
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because it makes not sense to make such body when you can't sell it for the price Fuji was wrong about... and it makes no sense to manufacture more expensive body to sell it below X-T* bodies with newer sensor, newer CPUs, more memory.
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I think a lot of customers got a really great deal on the X-H1 there near the end of the product run. Those prices were simply amazing. I'm guessing a lot of them are still very happy with it.
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yes, that is very true - however as noted many times that will be an additional reason why Fuji will have extra trouble with trying to price X-H2 and sell it with in quantities enough to justify the effort later down the road...
 
Tom Schum said:
The word "flagship" seems to mean too many different things to too many people. I like the word but I think I need to stop using it.
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It does not seem to come up in Fuji press releases. Seems to be only a forums buzz word
 
A Fuji XT-4 Is not worth 2300 but a Z6 Ii is worth a bit more.
—-

William Loney wrote:
William Loney said:
carcour said:
I'm aware that the XT-2 has slower AF system. The XT-3 is out of question as I need IBIS. Now when looking for a new camera I won't be spending 2300$ CAD on a Fuji camera where I can get a Nikon Z6 II for a bit more.
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Sorry, this makes no sense at all. A $2300 camera is too much for you, BECAUSE, you could get another camera for a few hundred more.
The Nikon Z6II with 24-70 F4 will give me 1-2 stops high ISO advantage. Paired with the right lenses the Z6 II can do Pro sports with an image quality on par with the best cameras out there. For wildlife the Z7 II might be better because of pixel density but then again it's much more expensive said:
William Loney said:
William Loney said:
Meetmer, post: 64831227, member: 2036341"]
But the lenses should not hold a person back. Their 35 and 23 mm 1.4 lenses are core lenses. They should be state of the art. Why can’t they just do that, it doesn’t seem as difficult as launching a 200 mm $6000 prime that ten people are going to buy. I won’t buy the current offerings and they can have my money if they would just bring those two core lens updates to market.
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Just looked at your gear list. It appears that you're shooting with an X-T2, which is, although a great camera, not 'state of the art.'

How about YOU upgrade your body to something closer to state of the art? An X-T3 with the latest firmware brings the AF performance on par with the X-T4, and is a noticeable speed improvement over the X-T2.
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dp20210116 said:
Jerry-astro said:
while I patiently wait for my X-H1's successor.
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that successor will only come if Fuji finds a way to get a sensor/CPU/memory there that will not find a way into X-T* line... which I doubt...

because Fuji does not have a marketshare (or willing to invest money to grab it) _AND_ ability to charge big prices for APS-C camera to have a totally separate new sensor for X-H* line that will not find its way into the next X-T* few month later if not earlier :-) ...

barring of course sudden appearance of "organic sensors" which is not some off the shelf sensor made by Sony Semiconductor... I see this as the only way...

any off the shelf 8K sensor from Sony will be in next X-T* line camera (even before X-H2)

so X-H2 coupled with the story of what happened with X-H1 will not generate enough sales...

what Fuji can do additionally ? follow E-M1x route with more CPUs and embedded vertical grip ? again - Olympus example shows that it will not be sold well... there are buyers, but simply not enough ...
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Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. Flagships are only flagships for a given period of time until the technology is either surpassed or eventually finds its way to lower end models. That’s the way of the high tech world and is most certainly not restricted to the digital camera market. What’s more, flagships can be defined in numerous ways depending on the mix of technogies that set them aside from other models. So, unless you have some special insight into Fuji’s future plans (which I seriously doubt), then I’ll stick with the rumor sites’ predictions that the X-H1 might well be eventually superseded with a next gen model.

Fact is, neither of us really have any insight into Fuji’s detailed product plans, so you and I can guess until the cows come home, and arguing over pure guesswork kinda feels like a waste of time. It’s also worth pointing out there are numerous ways to design and feature a camera that qualifies as a “flagship.” The fact that one particular approach might not have worked for one company does not ensure that a similar approach might not work for another company depending on pricing, total feature set, and a host of other variables.

I’ll also add that most of your statements are also pure guesswork, and not supported by any real data. So, if it’s all the same, I’ll stick with my own guesswork unless you can bring some real data into the discussion.
 
carcour said:
A Fuji XT-4 Is not worth 2300 but a Z6 Ii is worth a bit more.
—-
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Look... I’m really trying hard to be patient and to not inhibit useful discussions — certainly including those that involve the sharing of opinions that might not support Fuji’s product strategy. However, your comments are going beyond simply expressing opinions and are now getting into the realm of trolling. If you’ve made up your mind to head in a different direction, then by all means do so and then share your opinions in the appropriate forum. Life’s too short to not use the gear that best meets your needs. However, at this point, your comments are starting to cross into the realm of trolling, and that has consequences.

I’m not going to debate this here... just take it as feedback and recognize that continuing down this path will result in a loss of forum privileges.

--
Jerry-Astro
Fujifilm X Forum Co-Mod
 
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are those pros paid ambassadors for fuji?
 
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i’m not insulting Fuji or anyone in any way. If you want to block me from the forum then go ahead. Everyone is allowed to express their opinions. I’ve spoken to a Fuji rep about that and I told him the same thing. At then end of the day we’re just talking about cameras, if you only expect people to only say good things then those forums become useless. The idea here is that I tried to ask a legitimate question but it seems that if we express our honest opinions, it’s forbidden. Censorship is in no way a good thing.

—-Jerry-astro wrote:

carcour wrote:

A Fuji XT-4 Is not worth 2300 but a Z6 Ii is worth a bit more.
—-

Look... I’m really trying hard to be patient and to not inhibit useful discussions — certainly including those that involve the sharing of opinions that might not support Fuji’s product strategy. However, your comments are going beyond simply expressing opinions and are now getting into the realm of trolling. If you’ve made up your mind to head in a different direction, then by all means do so and then share your opinions in the appropriate forum. Life’s too short to not use the gear that best meets your needs. However, at this point, your comments are starting to cross into the realm of trolling, and that has consequences.

I’m not going to debate this here... just take it as feedback and recognize that continuing down this path will result in a loss of forum privileges.
 
William Loney said:
Meetmer said:
But the lenses should not hold a person back. Their 35 and 23 mm 1.4 lenses are core lenses. They should be state of the art. Why can’t they just do that, it doesn’t seem as difficult as launching a 200 mm $6000 prime that ten people are going to buy. I won’t buy the current offerings and they can have my money if they would just bring those two core lens updates to market.
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Just looked at your gear list. It appears that you're shooting with an X-T2, which is, although a great camera, not 'state of the art.'

How about YOU upgrade your body to something closer to state of the art? An X-T3 with the latest firmware brings the AF performance on par with the X-T4, and is a noticeable speed improvement over the X-T2.
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I actually would love to upgrade, but the XT-3 does not have IBIS and I’m waiting for the smaller form factor IBIS to make it to the XT-5 and then I will be a buyer.
 
carcour said:
i’m not insulting Fuji or anyone in any way. If you want to block me from the forum then go ahead. Everyone is allowed to express their opinions. I’ve spoken to a Fuji rep about that and I told him the same thing. At then end of the day we’re just talking about cameras, if you only expect people to only say good things then those forums become useless. The idea here is that I tried to ask a legitimate question but it seems that if we express our honest opinions, it’s forbidden. Censorship is in no way a good
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Just one more point, and we need to move on. I have no problem with opinions that involve criticism of Fuji’s products and direction. You only need browse the forum a bit to realize that opinions both pro and con are common here as well as discussions that go in both directions. If I only “expected people to only say good things” then the forum would look very different and you’d see a whole lot fewer posts. However, there comes a point where negative comments start looking like trolling. It’s an ill-defined line that gets crossed, and for better or worse, my job (and that of my fellow two co-Mods) is to determine where that line is. It’s my opinion that you’ve crossed over it, particularly since at this point you had already decided to go a different route.

We probably will not ever agree on this, and that’s fine. Just take the feedback you’re getting and act as you see fit with the understanding that there are consequences for behavior that is interpreted as trolling (whether or not you might agree with that interpretation). As I said, I’d suggest we just move on. I really don’t wish to debate this further, nor anything with respect to moderation — per forum rules. Give them a quick read if you’re still not quite understanding the point.
 
Tom Schum said:
I feel the same way about my X30 (not X-T30). I don't understand why it was taken out of production so early. In the Fuji Finepix forum there are plenty who agree with me on this. In a way, I'm glad I don't have to make such decisions at Fuji.
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100% agreed; a high quality compact zoom with a reasonably fast lens, and something like an up-to-date 1" X Trans sensor is something I'd spend $1000 on right now, if they were to bring them back. I forget what they were to be called, but Nikon had a line of premium compacts in that space they aborted right at the last minute, due to software issues, apparently.
Tom Schum said:
There is still a controversy whether the sensor in the X-H1 is not as good as the one in the X-T4. Good hard data says the X-H1 sensor is better in low light!
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yep, Bill Claff's data seems to agree, from a purely technical point of view too. That said, I like the results I get from the newer bodies better for my deep sky work, and the low-light landscape stuff is pretty much a wash for me personally. When they squeeze the newer sensors and processors into that X-H body, I think you're going to like it, FWIW.

Regardless, I do hope they make something you'll like as much as I've liked the current X-T line. The technology is certainly there, I think.
 
dp20210116 said:
Tom Schum said:
dp20210116 said:
Old Timer63 said:
Well, I have the X-H1 and never could understand why it was taken out of production so early.
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because it makes not sense to make such body when you can't sell it for the price Fuji was wrong about... and it makes no sense to manufacture more expensive body to sell it below X-T* bodies with newer sensor, newer CPUs, more memory.
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I think a lot of customers got a really great deal on the X-H1 there near the end of the product run. Those prices were simply amazing. I'm guessing a lot of them are still very happy with it.
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yes, that is very true - however as noted many times that will be an additional reason why Fuji will have extra trouble with trying to price X-H2 and sell it with in quantities enough to justify the effort later down the road...
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Not sure how you can support a statement like that absent any information whatsoever on what the X-H2 will look like, its functionality, sensor specs, form factor, or price. Unless you have some insight into exactly what that camera will look like (highly doubtful), trying to assess it’s value at a given price point is futile and pretty useless speculation.
 
dp20210116 said:
Gary Martin said:
Until the current pandemic is in the rear-view mirror, I think some conservatism on Fuji's part is warranted. And they're not alone on this.
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indeed... Sony with A1, Canon with R5 were very conservative :-)
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I'm sure those cameras we're in development long before the pandemic, and cater to the high-end market. It's the consumer end that's under the biggest squeeze right now.
 
I just want to acknowledge the quality of your comment here regarding the direction Fuji seems to be heading with X and GX; I've tried to say some of the same things in the past, but not as eloquently. I hope you don't find yourself shouted down in the name of "full-frame" or primes with slightly dated autofocus motors.

Personal Anecdata:

I'm here because the X-T20 attracted my eye and fit my needs and shooting style better than the SLRs I'd been shooting, and was, in fact, more pleasurable an experience than my Nikons provided, as fantastic as they were and still are from a technological perspective. I get the impression, after being a fairly active member in this forum for the last six or more years, that the same, or similar, is true for lots of the people shooting these bodies, otherwise why leave a larger vendor?

The X-T3 and X-T4 have been amazing follow ups for me as well, and you know what? Fuji's system still suits me better than what Nikon's shipping. I hope for something more like a proper X-T40 to supplement my X-T4, because I no longer care for the PASM interface they're pushing with the X-S10, but I have no problem admitting that's a personal preference.

Anyway, please excuse the "RAH RAH ME TOO!" post; I was dumbstruck to see someone elucidate my own thought process so well.
 
Meetmer said:
Rod McD said:
Meetmer said:
In terms of roadmap I don’t see any new lenses now.
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The latest release of two XF lenses off their road map was only one week ago. Fuji typically haven't made an immediate release of a new roadmap. You need to exercise some patience before reading too much into it.
Meetmer said:
Fuji need to update their 23 and 35 1.4 lenses as their AF is slow .
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Fuji know full well that the 35/1.4 is first gen and that the 23/1.4 is second gen. They'll get there. Their priorities for upgrades may just be different from yours. And remember - it's been a terrible year for most camera manufacturers. Olympus is in doubt, sold to an investment firm. Nikon is in contraction - two more closures announced this week. Pentax is dependent on Ricoh and releasing gear at a snail's pace. Fuji is surviving and Canon is a giant because they're both diversified - not just because they make cameras.
Meetmer said:
and also release fast telephoto lenses.
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Fuji users would like some telephoto primes but Fuji have thus far adopted the position that zooms are the way of meeting the demand for reach - viz the 50-140, 55-200 and 100-400. The they can cover different expectations.... they don't have to offer a 300, and a 400 and a 500, etc.. There's obviously demand for longer than 400, but the tip is a 150-600 zoom. Bear in mind that the 200/2 didn't sell in numbers. No-one here knows if it made ROI. And the highest demand in other brands hasn't been fast teles - it's been PF lenses in moderate speed (300/4 and 500/5.6) because they offer portability. I wouldn't bank on seeing big fast telephotos being announced any time soon.

If you seriously want a fast tele, the investment is so large just for the lens that the camera body just doesn't matter. Pick the lens you want from what's on the market today and hang any compatible body you like off the back of it for little extra cost. No point waiting for Fuji - it won't be any cheaper.
Meetmer said:
Instead it seems Fuji is investing mostly in GFX.
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Which they need to do to support the system. It is reported to be selling beyond expectations.
Meetmer said:
Since there’s no future roadmap i find it scary to invest more into that system.
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Not every brand has even had an ongoing road map all of the time.
Meetmer said:
The current FF cameras are very competitive and their price is very close to an XT-4, Fuji need to wither adjust their prices or improve their AF.
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Other brands high spec APSC are not so different. Compare say the Nikon D500. Basic FF cameras are becoming price-competitive with high spec APSC. When I compare the price of higher spec FF cameras, there's a huge price difference. Even an A7Riii, which is a few years old now, is AUD$1K dearer than an XT4.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that FF is becoming the only standard..... It may be for many pros. It isn't for non-pros. Every single manufacturer that makes an FF camera still offers multiple bodies in a smaller format (MFT or APSC). Their sales comfortably outstrip FF models.. They have their uses and appeal to many buyers. Some of them are advanced users and some of them are indeed pros. A proportion will want high spec bodies....

Regards, Rod
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i think that the other manufacturers that make FFs also have APS-Cs. because they treat their customers as a family. They want to keep them brand loyal. When a canon, Nikon, or Sony APS-C user want to step up to FF, they can just look within the same brand that they have grown accustomed to.
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Agreed - I think that's part of it.
Meetmer said:
But I do think that is the hope of these manufacturers and why they still support APS-C, because the FF bodies and lenses sell at a higher price point and are therefore more profitable.
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FF lenses sell at higher cost because they're made in fewer numbers. FF cameras are still sold in smaller numbers than their sibling smaller formats. However, although the FF share might be a smaller portion of sales, it's a slowly growing one because the price of FF sensors is coming down and the cameras can be offered at lower prices.

It's also the reason that Fuji have to sell their GFX cameras and lenses at a very high price - same as Hassleblad, Pentax and anyone else making MF systems. It's just supply and demand. It was always so - I used to use LF and MF in the film era and paid heavily for it. Ironically you can buy used LF lenses for a song today - it's tragic thinking about what we used to have to pay.....
Meetmer said:
The reason why FUJI skipped FF and went straight to MF is because they can get $6000 for a body and $2500 for a lens and have very little competition in that range. Fuji would not be able to compete at the FF level because the market is already saturated. Maybe this is their hedge because they are worried about the financial viability of their APS-C line.
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This point is often made (about the FF market being saturated) but I am not completely convinced. The APSC market was saturated long before the FF market, yet Fuji entered it and have done well. The lens market was saturated by the OEMs, yet a dozen emerging Chinese manufacturers have entered it and are slowly eking out a market share. Sure some of them sell cheap remakes of old formula manual lenses, but there are some that are very innovative and their lenses are terrific. Thinking say Laowa there.

MF is also Fuji's history. Fuji did once offer a 35mm film system but it wasn't profitable for them and they abandoned it. They continued to offer MF and LF gear, their panoramic camera, lenses for Hassleblad and lenses for the movie industry long after they ditched 35mm. Pentax also had a strong MF tradition and they too skipped FF for a long time and produced their digital 44x33 DSLR. They did eventually offer the K1. People argue that Fuji might produce an FF, but unlike Canon, Fuji and Pentax, Fuji haven't got the legacy FF community and AF lenses out in the market place, so the investment to set one up would be much bigger.

We'll all be wiser in ten years ;-)

Regards, Rod
Meetmer said:
Meetmer said:
Meetmer said:
Whats’s your take on future X bodies and lenses.
——
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carcour said:
Are there any new lenses on the roadmap? Think twice before you write a comment. If there are any let me know.
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Well, you complained about Fuji not introducing new lenses, when they just announced 2 of them. At the end of the day, you then complained that Fuji did not update the 23 and 35 lenses. So, you complain that Fuji has different priorities than you. Tough luck. Life is like that.

I see that you have chosen to resort to insult, rather than maintain a civilized discussion tone. Given your appetite for new Fuji lenses and your take that you find it scary to invest in the system, I ask again:

1. What do you want from Fuji? a MKII 23 and 35 mm lenses?

2. Super telephoto primes, like 500 f/4?

I ask you also again: when the X-H2 comes up in 2022, being better than the X-T4, what will you complain about?
carcour said:
biza43 said:
carcour said:
When the XH-1 was released in 2018 it was touted as being a flagship and pro camera. Few months later Fuji released the X-T3 and 2 years after the X-T4. The XT-3 and XT-4 surpassed the XH-1 few months after it was released.
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If you only look at specs, maybe. But the advantages of the XH1 over the XT3 remained then: better construction, better ergonomics, better shutter mechanism, top panle, IBIS. Lots of people value such things over sliglthly better specs. The XT4 was launched 2 years later, so how could it surpass the XH1 after a few months? Surpassing depends on what one values most.
carcour said:
Based on that i fail to understand Fuji’s strategy.
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Yup.
carcour said:
Maybe the XH-1 didn’t sell as much as expected so Fuji decided to focus on their differentiating factor which is the retro dials. Although the XH-2 seem to be still on the roadmap, I find it weird that a flagship camera remains For 2.5 years slower than than the newer released cameras.
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It happens sometimes. No doubt the XH2 will "correct" that. The XH1 was released at the time as a demonstration of Fuji's ability to make a pro-APSC camera.
carcour said:
It’s like Sony releasing a consumer camera faster and better than the A1 for less price, or Nikon releasing a faster consumer camera than the D6. Today the XT-4 is much better than the XH-1 except for ergonomics and build.
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Again, people value different things. What will you say when the XH2 comes out with allo the speed of the XT4 and better ergonomics and build?
carcour said:
In terms of roadmap I don’t see any new lenses now.
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You must have been distracted,
carcour said:
Fuji need to update their 23 and 35 1.4 lenses as their AF is slow and also release fast telephoto lenses.
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Slow for what? It is actually quite fast in recent cameras. It is also a matter of priority. What do you have in mind for fast telephoto lenses?
carcour said:
Instead it seems Fuji is investing mostly in GFX.
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Of course, and that makes sense. They are making very good business with GFX, and the lens park is still not full. Again, a matter of priorities.
carcour said:
Since there’s no future roadmap i find it scary to invest more into that system.
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Ok, there are many other systems. Unless you aare a pro, photography is a hobby, not an investment. So, would you buy updated 23 and 35 f/1.4 lenses? Would you buy a 300 f/4 lens? A 500 f/4 lens?
carcour said:
The current FF cameras are very competitive and their price is very close to an XT-4, Fuji need to wither adjust their prices or improve their AF.
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The cheaper FF cameras are either: older models, or models that are not as performing as the XT4.
carcour said:
Whats’s your take on future X bodies and lenses.
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XH2 in 2022.

Telephoto superzoom, as per the rumours.
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