R5 Owner's Perspective on Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra

rlaplaca

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I am, and have been, a Canon film camera and DSLR camera owner/user since the 1990's. I currently have, among other Canon cameras, an R5 with the RF 100 - 500 mm lens and love the combination. Very, very nice operability characteristics, performance and image quality. This is the best camera I have ever owned and hope to keep it indefinitely.

Having said that, the combination costs over $6K US and it weighs at least 5 lbs. I have to make a definite point to carry it around while looking for wildlife photo opportunities.

I just read about the new Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra that was introduced today and it is quite sobering. Four cameras, raw capability, AI processing, 4K video, etc. and it costs "only" $1200 US.

I know that this subject has been beat to death, but the vast majority of people will never need an R series or other mirrorless or DSLR camera and I am reluctant, but depressed, to say that I can only see the continued death spiral of the traditional camera industry.

I live in Florida, within several miles of the Gulf Coast. Many people go to watch and photograph sunsets. Virtually everyone is using a smart phone or tablet to do selfies against the setting sun or to take pictures of the sunset itself.

Ten or more years ago, people would see me with my DSLR and ask me to take pictures of them with their digital cameras. Now, no one asks to have their picture taken. Quite a change!
 
There are two things that smart phone cameras yet able to match large cameras. (1) Long telephoto shots, and (2) extreme shallow depth of focus of a f1.2 lens. Periscope telephoto lens is able to get around the thickness issue and comes close to your long tele-zoom. Smart software is able to fake the shallow DoF.

What is left is the ergometric of buttons and dials to let you have full control on a large camera. Smart phone users don't even want that. They prefer to scroll thru the filters to select what they see is good.
 
I am, and have been, a Canon film camera and DSLR camera owner/user since the 1990's. I currently have, among other Canon cameras, an R5 with the RF 100 - 500 mm lens and love the combination. Very, very nice operability characteristics, performance and image quality. This is the best camera I have ever owned and hope to keep it indefinitely.

Having said that, the combination costs over $6K US and it weighs at least 5 lbs. I have to make a definite point to carry it around while looking for wildlife photo opportunities.

I just read about the new Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra that was introduced today and it is quite sobering. Four cameras, raw capability, AI processing, 4K video, etc. and it costs "only" $1200 US.

I know that this subject has been beat to death, but the vast majority of people will never need an R series or other mirrorless or DSLR camera and I am reluctant, but depressed, to say that I can only see the continued death spiral of the traditional camera industry.

I live in Florida, within several miles of the Gulf Coast. Many people go to watch and photograph sunsets. Virtually everyone is using a smart phone or tablet to do selfies against the setting sun or to take pictures of the sunset itself.

Ten or more years ago, people would see me with my DSLR and ask me to take pictures of them with their digital cameras. Now, no one asks to have their picture taken. Quite a change!
Ehh. Yeah, smartphones have all those capabilities, and the pictures smartphones take look great on a small smartphone screen. They start to fall apart when I pull it up on my 1440p monitor, and I imagine it's even worse when you view it on a 4K monitor. And I'm not even pixel peeping yet, just smeared details, etc.

The main benefit of a smartphone is convenience. I use mine a lot for casual photography, mainly of my child, as I always have it with me. But when I want to do more serious photography, out come the big guns.

And a smartphone simply can't create the effect of thin DOF with nicely blurred backgrounds. They try do it with computational photography, but it looks a bit artificial.

The IQ and dynamic range of modern full-frame sensors is still a lot better than those small sensors used on smartphones.

Eventually the market decline will stop and there will be a steady base for enthusiasts and pros. A much smaller market for the manufacturers, but there will still be one. And well, with many emerging markets becoming more and more prosperous, there could eventually be some growth again.
 
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What you say about the trend in camera market has been going on for a while.

From my perspective all the indoor portraits from my S9 (2018) are fairly blurry compared to my R6 (2020). The S9 can't take decent pictures of my 2 year old most of the time because he never keeps still. I won't post any of those pictures but I did a quick comparison when I got the R6. Hand held in the basement without windows and lights off, adjust for exposure (in the case of S9 to the maximum):

9474c3d9522f4026a27cc8a92f2f06e5.jpg



9a6e6f3a17884709b1060190a543b7da.jpg

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What you say about the trend in camera market has been going on for a while.

From my perspective all the indoor portraits from my S9 (2018) are fairly blurry compared to my R6 (2020). The S9 can't take decent pictures of my 2 year old most of the time because he never keeps still. I won't post any of those pictures but I did a quick comparison when I got the R6. Hand held in the basement without windows and lights off, adjust for exposure (in the case of S9 to the maximum):

9474c3d9522f4026a27cc8a92f2f06e5.jpg

9a6e6f3a17884709b1060190a543b7da.jpg
 
What you say about the trend in camera market has been going on for a while.

From my perspective all the indoor portraits from my S9 (2018) are fairly blurry compared to my R6 (2020). The S9 can't take decent pictures of my 2 year old most of the time because he never keeps still. I won't post any of those pictures but I did a quick comparison when I got the R6. Hand held in the basement without windows and lights off, adjust for exposure (in the case of S9 to the maximum):

9474c3d9522f4026a27cc8a92f2f06e5.jpg

9a6e6f3a17884709b1060190a543b7da.jpg
I have a R5 and an EOS R along with several DSLRs. I also have a S20 Ultra phone with 108 MP sensor that I use frequently some takes it does well. It is always with me and it does a good job doing some things. I use the R5 and R along with 20 some lenses in my work and for important family pictures because the results are better. The S20 is better than my S8 that it replaced last January long before I got the R5.

The phone can produce decent pictures and can be amazing at times and not just the new S21 Ultra. They are tools and so are Canon cameras. This has been going on for nearly 20 years. The early phones were not as good. The cameras business shrinks but the phones are not capable of doing what the more professional cameras do. Sensor size is small and they more noise and worse lenses so the cameras overfilter the images to suppress noise but this limits on what can achieved. Nothing new in this and that why the camera business got cut in half and may very well suffer more decline in the future.

The phone has small sensors with at least a 2.7X crop factor (1" sensor) or greater. Some smaller phone cameras are 6.7X crop factor (1/1.5" sensor)


Some are
 
I want to think that Canon and the likes can see the writing on the wall. That is why the feature set on recent cameras has been generous. As you stated, the R5 can really last for many, many years and still be viable. The DR is good and resolution is plenty for most everything.

Now making money with it going forward is the tough part as images become more and more of a commodity. Relevance seems more important than quality going forward.
 
I want to think that Canon and the likes can see the writing on the wall. That is why the feature set on recent cameras has been generous. As you stated, the R5 can really last for many, many years and still be viable. The DR is good and resolution is plenty for most everything.

Now making money with it going forward is the tough part as images become more and more of a commodity. Relevance seems more important than quality going forward.
Quality is always import for professional use. The photographer is key part of producing professional images. Most pictures will made by amateurs using their phones and this will some impact on the low end of the phototography market.

The number of camera companies is likely to decline with smaller business but there will always be a demand for excellent images.
 
True, but I was speaking to overall perceptions. I think a lot of folks just don't care much anymore. The rising tide has lifted all of the boats so to speak. While some still care, the budgets show they care less or do not have to care as much as they used to.
 
Two different beasts - one does so much processing when the shot is taken, which you can't control, it gets a 'good' image and the other you have to process it yourself after the shot is taken to get a 'good' image.

Its mind blowing the way phones get such good shots - multiple images, fusing multiple images together using AI to select the best parts from different images etc. I wish photo processing programs could do similar with less work :-D

This is like the raw verses jpg discussions - neither is right each has its own place. If you want to play with the image/create arty personal images yourself, then D-SLR/mirrorless camera (which shots in raw) is the way to go. If you want an image where someone else has decided the processing for you and want a quick result, then go with a phone.

I'm old enough to remember a similar discussions comparing 35mm, 120 format, 220 format (medium format in all its forms). Remember all the film formats aim at the public, which where always smaller than theses (cheaper and never blown up beyond 4x5 or 6x4) - all were tools and had their own place.

PS. Is it me do all phone images look over sharpened (they are) and has this practice now spread to D-SLR/mirrorless images.
 
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There are two things that smart phone cameras yet able to match large cameras. (1) Long telephoto shots, and (2) extreme shallow depth of focus of a f1.2 lens. Periscope telephoto lens is able to get around the thickness issue and comes close to your long tele-zoom. Smart software is able to fake the shallow DoF.

What is left is the ergometric of buttons and dials to let you have full control on a large camera. Smart phone users don't even want that. They prefer to scroll thru the filters to select what they see is good.
Another item I would add is high resolution sensors. The S21 ultra has a 108mp mode that seems to work extremely well from the few videos I have seen showing this. Also, low light images seem to get a decent improvement from the S20 to the S21 models. Lastly, a feature that I think could be very useful is regarding 8k video mode. There is an app in the phone that allows going through an 8k video and plucking 32mp frames out of it for still shots. I am sure there are a lot more this phone can do that we don't know about yet because it has been out for just a very short period of time.

From what I see of the 3X and 10X optical zooming lenses for the S21 Ultra, it looks to be quite an improvement over the S20 Ultra. Even the digital zooming out to 100X looks to be improved through some form of improved computational wizardry.

I saw the S20 Ultra as the first smartphone camera that took a shot at cameras beyond the P&S segment. The S21 Ultra looks to definitely extend this a good bit further. It will probably replace my S9+ in a couple of months and the reason is the S21 Ultra's camera system. I call it a system now instead of a "camera" because it now has three cameras, a seprate laser AF system and two of the three cameras have optical zooms. Every new smartphone I buy makes me use my dedicated camera gear a little less. The S21 Ultra might make me use dedicated camera gear even less than the last few upgrades have done.
 
What you say about the trend in camera market has been going on for a while.

From my perspective all the indoor portraits from my S9 (2018) are fairly blurry compared to my R6 (2020). The S9 can't take decent pictures of my 2 year old most of the time because he never keeps still. I won't post any of those pictures but I did a quick comparison when I got the R6. Hand held in the basement without windows and lights off, adjust for exposure (in the case of S9 to the maximum):
I have a S9+ and while the camera is OK it isn't close to what the S21 Ultra can now deliver. It would be really interesting to take the same photo with it and see how far low light capability has come for smartphones in just 2-3 years. I am not saying it would match the R6 but I would bet it has closed the gap between the S9 and it quite a bit.
 
One impact from smartphone development that I think us "traditional" photographers overlook is how smartphone technology will meld with traditional gear. I think this is potentially the most exciting result from the smartphone versus ILC wars. The result of this melding of traditional and new tech will give us devices that blur the lines of both. I think we will see new form factors and incredible capability from very affordable devices. Seeing a smartphone like the S21 Ultra makes me think this day is coming sooner than I expected.
 
How good/bad is the Fake Bokeh? How smart is the A.I. ?
How good/bad is the Fake Bokeh? How smart is the A.I. ?

Does the camera know what the user wants to achieve?
Does the camera know what the user wants to achieve?

What happens when the phone rings/vibrates and you're taking a critical photograph?
What happens when the phone rings/vibrates and you're taking a critical photograph?

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Walking around with a smartphone won't get you close to wild animals. It won't let you photograph the Milky Way overhead in a clear sky without a tripos and you'll never photograph the moon's craters without a long lens or a telescope attached to it. You'd be taking a risk diving with it, even in a pressurized container. And those family portraits or wedding photographs are going to be at risk if you attempt to use your LED flash. I dowloaded some manual setting apps for my iPhone and I found that even if I went to the default camera settings, it often took me five seconds or more to unlock the Camera program or put in a password and then close some random application that was open and finally get the camera to operate. I missed shots. And I couldn't take pictures from a vehicle without risking a nasty fine for using my phone illegally. Even if I saw something amazing while stopped in traffic.
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Smart Phones are the VERY reason why your new R5 and R6 are so expensive. Smartphone cameras are why camera sales are declining and this is why there are rising prices. I can stand behind a tripod and shoot a paid job with a large lens whilst holding a conversation on my iPhone - even send pictures from my camera to my phone to my wife for immediate and simultaneous editing ... and she can then send it elsewhere as needed. But everything is always a compromise. What I appreciate about modern smartphone cameras is that I always have one with me so if I don't feel like lugging 2kg of camera+lens with me, I can still capture some nice shots if the need arises.
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No self respecting photographer would attempt to take payment for a wedding and then turn up with their smart phone. The same applies to other paid shoots. However, there are less of those paid shoots because every shopkeeper/jeweler/manufacturer selling a product has a staff member with a great phone camera that will do the job for them. The same goes for food photographs used by restaurants and harbor cruise operators and special event catering. You're not going to get paid to shoot what the staff and their smart phones can contribute for free.
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After watching the video above, it's evident that Samsung aren't selling a phone at all but a camera. You won't be able to cram those 5 lenses into the back of a lens or a telescope. But the video capability will kill off the video camera market assuredly. It's an all-in-one editing suite on-the-fly. The 8K video from this phone will crush anyone attempting to edit it (or play the videos) on a typical home computer. You'll pay a fortune for media storage too. And at NO TIME did I see an ad for a camera in the video. They're selling a video camera that just happens to shoot pictures. I wonder how it will handle heat dissipation with a 3+1 camera/lens simultaneous 8K stream to the buffer/storage/card etc.
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The one and only thing that limits photographic equipment is Physics. That tiny phone sensor is going to reach its limitation and then compromises must be made. Strong zoom requires larger optics. Light sensitivity has its own requirements. Every single Smart Phone has its own restrictions imposed by hardware requirements or sensor limitations. The average smartphone has a battery lifespan of about a year and a half (depending on the model) and had a redundancy of around 4 years. If you follow the mantra of everyone else, you'll have to buy a new phone every couple of years to maintain the current technology at the time.
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With less people owning cameras and more people owning smartphones with cameras, more and more will assume you must be a "photographer" when they see you with anything other than a point-and-shoot. In fact, those cameras (P&S) are completely redundant now in the face of the new range of Smartphone Cameras.
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Do what you will.

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Regards,
Marco Nero.
 
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I know that the topic's author is referring to the S21 Ultra as an option against the EOS R5 . It's a bit off topic , but here it goes . For my personal use , Samsung Smartphones have been a companion to my Canon ILCs . I've been using Samsung Smartphones for a while and I can say that I've been having a good experience with the Camera Connect Software . No need for a release cable . With the option of using Lightroom Mobile for editing RAW files in the field or using Lightroom Mobile on the Smartphone connected to a monitor through Samsung DEX , I thing it gives a run for money to the ZEISS ZX1 . It's not as using Lightroom on a desktop or laptop , but it's possible to edit EOS R5 CR3 files on my S20+ . Here's a screenshot .



Lightroom Mobile on S20+ DEX mode
Lightroom Mobile on S20+ DEX mode

What I have to say , is why not have both ?
 
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I am, and have been, a Canon film camera and DSLR camera owner/user since the 1990's. I currently have, among other Canon cameras, an R5 with the RF 100 - 500 mm lens and love the combination. Very, very nice operability characteristics, performance and image quality. This is the best camera I have ever owned and hope to keep it indefinitely.

Having said that, the combination costs over $6K US and it weighs at least 5 lbs. I have to make a definite point to carry it around while looking for wildlife photo opportunities.

I just read about the new Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra that was introduced today and it is quite sobering. Four cameras, raw capability, AI processing, 4K video, etc. and it costs "only" $1200 US.

I know that this subject has been beat to death, but the vast majority of people will never need an R series or other mirrorless or DSLR camera and I am reluctant, but depressed, to say that I can only see the continued death spiral of the traditional camera industry.

I live in Florida, within several miles of the Gulf Coast. Many people go to watch and photograph sunsets. Virtually everyone is using a smart phone or tablet to do selfies against the setting sun or to take pictures of the sunset itself.

Ten or more years ago, people would see me with my DSLR and ask me to take pictures of them with their digital cameras. Now, no one asks to have their picture taken. Quite a change!
I don't see it really this way at all.

there's only so much a small sensor will do, but the S21 makes for a very high-end compact camera.

When I was looking at my year budget, I went, i need a new compact, and then I thought, well no, i just need to update my phone.

It was no different in the film days with compact 35mm cameras.
 
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Samsung's decision to omit the microSD card is a deal-breaker for me. If ever there was a phone that needed one, this is it. Hopefully this is not their new "we're going to be more like apple" policy and will include one on future models.
 
I own iPhone 12 Pro Max and it is wonderful for a smartphone, especially coming from iPhone 6s plus.

the 65 mm/tele lens on the new phone has somewhat natural shallow dof, no need for portrait mode

M50 kills it with details in the RAW file, there are simply none of them in the PRORAW file

And M50 gets owned by all of the Rs just for comparision.

And I know the discussion was about Samsung, I sooner use Nikon that force to use that phone
 
SOC Heif from the 2.5 lens

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KEG
 
I am, and have been, a Canon film camera and DSLR camera owner/user since the 1990's.
As I started reading this I realized that I wanted to respond with my genuine thoughts in the moment. The reason I say that is because that first line appears to be an indication that I'm supposed to start off this thread believing you are absolutely pro-real camera, sensible, and I should relax my skepticism before we even get out of the gate. This is a rhetorical strategy used in debates to disarm your opponent and your audience so that they are more receptive to a controversial (read: incorrect) argument. If I'm wrong, then I'll leave this here as testimony to my wrongness.
I currently have, among other Canon cameras, an R5 with the RF 100 - 500 mm lens and love the combination. Very, very nice operability characteristics, performance and image quality. This is the best camera I have ever owned and hope to keep it indefinitely.
Even more disarming. I wonder what's coming next. I wonder if it's going to be a reduction of the camera in order to make phone cameras appear even more amazing than one would have previously thought.
Having said that, the combination costs over $6K US and it weighs at least 5 lbs. I have to make a definite point to carry it around while looking for wildlife photo opportunities.
Thus the heavy, expensive rig is taken down a notch. Still, those things you state are correct. I wonder why the largest, most expensive rig was your choice. The weight, the size, the inconvenience are all choices you didn't have to make. Smaller, great cameras and zooms are available.
I just read about the new Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra that was introduced today and it is quite sobering. Four cameras, raw capability, AI processing, 4K video, etc. and it costs "only" $1200 US.
And a decent chunk of that is the camera module, but not nearly a majority. None of those cameras producing RAW are nearly the same quality as the R5 sensor. 4K on a tiny sensor with a tiny lens is still a world away from 4K on the R5, even though they use the same spec. call out....I mean, "4K" just triggers part of our brain that says this video is going to blow me away.
I know that this subject has been beat to death, but the vast majority of people will never need an R series or other mirrorless or DSLR camera and I am reluctant
What does "the vast majority of people" ever have to do with anything? This is another ad populum argument that is, on its face, fallacious. The vast majority of people also will never use RAW or the manual controls on that S21. They'll never care about composition or framing or lighting or noise or detail or dynamic range: they'll point the camera and take a picture. AND THEN some of those billions of images will be amazing and by the shear existence of large numbers and the principle of normal distribution (i.e. the bell curve) those amazing images will be used as proof that the S21 camera is all you ACTUALLY ever really need.
, but depressed, to say that I can only see the continued death spiral of the traditional camera industry.
There hasn't been much decrease in ILC or DSLR sales. Point and shoots have decreased dramatically. But let's think about this for just one minute.

There were decades of film cameras where some of the big convenience innovations were instant Polaroids or those cheap disposable film cameras. No internet to speak of, no Facebook or Instagram for sharing, and not even e-mail or widespread computer ownership to speak of. Then in the 90's the internet and e-mail and not long after social media that wasn't even all that photography based leading eventually to social media services that were entirely photography based.

It wasn't long after that digital photography became the new, hot technology. And once cameras were cheap enough and in demand the innovation began apace. As with any computing technology they started off pretty crappy but oh my gosh all the convenience. Then people stopped debating if film was better because it was so plainly obvious that 18MP with 10 stops of dynamic range was way better.

And what happens to highly profitable, fast moving innovation technology sectors after a decade or so? Technology improvements plateau because the easy gains have been used up and then comes the hard work of slow improvements and replacing old reliable tech like PDAF with really incredible (but not shockingly world shattering) DPAF and the like. Things get better, lighter, cheaper and those are worth money but the big things like image quality, shooting speed, EVF's quality, dynamic range and the things that only enthusiasts are really impressed with and are willing to keep spending money on take time to mature.

And once a threshold is met, typical consumers are happy and they don't buy a new camera every year or two but instead keep the latest one until it breaks.

Even without phones sales of cameras were eventually going to crash. And it just so happens that camera technology matured enough to be cheap enough and good enough to.....wait for it......be part of a new smartphone market. Do you think that's a coincidence? The camera market made sensors good enough and cheap enough that when people saw a phone with a camera and the images weren't pure suck (like the garbage cameras on the old flip phones) and the images on the tiny screen looked good for once they probably started taking a lot of images for the first time in their lives.
I live in Florida, within several miles of the Gulf Coast. Many people go to watch and photograph sunsets. Virtually everyone is using a smart phone or tablet to do selfies against the setting sun or to take pictures of the sunset itself.
Again, you're connecting things that are entirely unrelated. Do you think in the past those people would have had any camera at all? Would have EVEN BEEN THERE if there wasn't a chance to humble brag on Facebook about #thegoodlife or whatever the hashtag is these days for miserable people who appear super happy in their curated online fake lives?

Doubtful. I'd say the vast majority of images captured these days are coming from people who never would have even purchased a camera in the fist place, but when they bought their internet phone the camera was glued on and the lure of Facebook and Instagram is more than the human mind can resist.
Ten or more years ago, people would see me with my DSLR and ask me to take pictures of them with their digital cameras. Now, no one asks to have their picture taken. Quite a change!
Because WHO EVEN HAD A CAMERA when they went out into public?

Yeah, this topic has been beaten to death. And things have changed a lot. For the most part I think people taking more photographs is a good thing. I think the perception of the changes is far, far too simplified and influenced by anecdotes rather than logic and evidence.
 
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