Canon 600mm, f4 L, USM vs 600mm, f4 L, IS USM on R5...

well, i think i will give 500mm f4 , USM V1, (or even f4.5) a shot, as soon as i will sell all my Nikon gear .

it seems 500mm V1 is tack sharp as the V2.
It's not, especially not with extenders.
That certainly doesn’t agree with my experience. From what I’ve seen the mk1 is actually a tiny bit sharper with the extenders.
That's interesting. Everything I've seen suggests the opposite. Even a few friends that have the Mk I and shot my Mk II say its definitely sharper, especially with TCs.

The Digital Pictures crops tell that same story. I'm curious, do you shoot your lenses stopped down? Stopping both down a stop would make everything you said make a lot of sense.

Also note we are talking about very tiny differences as being significant, so read that into the results.

Here are the TDP crops for the two.

https://www.the-digital-picture.com...meraComp=453&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=0
Yea and the digital picture says the 600 mk3 is softer than the mk2 also. Did your friends use them on a sturdy tripod and test the two lenses side by side on a test target?
Another friend let me shoot his 600L III and it definitely seemed softer than his 600L II with a TC. That said, shooting it bare, I didn't feel like there was anything in it between the two. He does really like it, but I can tell he isn't fully happy with it. Its weird though, he complains about it every once in a while, but refuses to go back to the heavier lens. So, in his case the weight savings outweigh the TC performance.

As far as the tripod question, they both use tripods with their 500's because of the weight, but shot mine handheld and still felt it was better, especially wide open. That said, they weren't shooting charts and brick walls so it was all subjective.
 
well, i think i will give 500mm f4 , USM V1, (or even f4.5) a shot, as soon as i will sell all my Nikon gear .

it seems 500mm V1 is tack sharp as the V2.
It's not, especially not with extenders.
That certainly doesn’t agree with my experience. From what I’ve seen the mk1 is actually a tiny bit sharper with the extenders.
That's interesting. Everything I've seen suggests the opposite. Even a few friends that have the Mk I and shot my Mk II say its definitely sharper, especially with TCs.

The Digital Pictures crops tell that same story. I'm curious, do you shoot your lenses stopped down? Stopping both down a stop would make everything you said make a lot of sense.

Also note we are talking about very tiny differences as being significant, so read that into the results.

Here are the TDP crops for the two.

https://www.the-digital-picture.com...meraComp=453&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=0
Yea and the digital picture says the 600 mk3 is softer than the mk2 also. Did your friends use them on a sturdy tripod and test the two lenses side by side on a test target?
 
That's interesting. Everything I've seen suggests the opposite. Even a few friends that have the Mk I and shot my Mk II say its definitely sharper, especially with TCs.

The Digital Pictures crops tell that same story. I'm curious, do you shoot your lenses stopped down? Stopping both down a stop would make everything you said make a lot of sense.

Also note we are talking about very tiny differences as being significant, so read that into the results.

Here are the TDP crops for the two.

https://www.the-digital-picture.com...meraComp=453&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=0
Yea and the digital picture says the 600 mk3 is softer than the mk2 also. Did your friends use them on a sturdy tripod and test the two lenses side by side on a test target?
The 600 mk3 is softer with TCs, and that's probably the only complaint about that lens.
 
well, i think i will give 500mm f4 , USM V1, (or even f4.5) a shot, as soon as i will sell all my Nikon gear .

it seems 500mm V1 is tack sharp as the V2.
It's not, especially not with extenders.
That certainly doesn’t agree with my experience. From what I’ve seen the mk1 is actually a tiny bit sharper with the extenders.
That's interesting. Everything I've seen suggests the opposite. Even a few friends that have the Mk I and shot my Mk II say its definitely sharper, especially with TCs.

The Digital Pictures crops tell that same story. I'm curious, do you shoot your lenses stopped down? Stopping both down a stop would make everything you said make a lot of sense.

Also note we are talking about very tiny differences as being significant, so read that into the results.

Here are the TDP crops for the two.

https://www.the-digital-picture.com...meraComp=453&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=0
Yea and the digital picture says the 600 mk3 is softer than the mk2 also. Did your friends use them on a sturdy tripod and test the two lenses side by side on a test target?
Another friend let me shoot his 600L III and it definitely seemed softer than his 600L II with a TC. That said, shooting it bare, I didn't feel like there was anything in it between the two. He does really like it, but I can tell he isn't fully happy with it. Its weird though, he complains about it every once in a while, but refuses to go back to the heavier lens. So, in his case the weight savings outweigh the TC performance.

As far as the tripod question, they both use tripods with their 500's because of the weight, but shot mine handheld and still felt it was better, especially wide open. That said, they weren't shooting charts and brick walls so it was all subjective.
 
well, i think i will give 500mm f4 , USM V1, (or even f4.5) a shot, as soon as i will sell all my Nikon gear .

it seems 500mm V1 is tack sharp as the V2.
It's not, especially not with extenders.
That certainly doesn’t agree with my experience. From what I’ve seen the mk1 is actually a tiny bit sharper with the extenders.
That's interesting. Everything I've seen suggests the opposite. Even a few friends that have the Mk I and shot my Mk II say its definitely sharper, especially with TCs.

The Digital Pictures crops tell that same story. I'm curious, do you shoot your lenses stopped down? Stopping both down a stop would make everything you said make a lot of sense.

Also note we are talking about very tiny differences as being significant, so read that into the results.

Here are the TDP crops for the two.

https://www.the-digital-picture.com...meraComp=453&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=0
Yea and the digital picture says the 600 mk3 is softer than the mk2 also. Did your friends use them on a sturdy tripod and test the two lenses side by side on a test target?
The 600 MK3 IS softer than the 600 mk2!!

Lmfao this guy.
If you say so Bernie.

 
That's interesting. Everything I've seen suggests the opposite. Even a few friends that have the Mk I and shot my Mk II say its definitely sharper, especially with TCs.

The Digital Pictures crops tell that same story. I'm curious, do you shoot your lenses stopped down? Stopping both down a stop would make everything you said make a lot of sense.

Also note we are talking about very tiny differences as being significant, so read that into the results.

Here are the TDP crops for the two.

https://www.the-digital-picture.com...meraComp=453&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=0
Yea and the digital picture says the 600 mk3 is softer than the mk2 also. Did your friends use them on a sturdy tripod and test the two lenses side by side on a test target?
The 600 mk3 is softer with TCs, and that's probably the only complaint about that lens.
What are you basing that on?
 
Bernie, that is what i have heard from a few owners--i haven't had the opportunity to compare the 2 revs, myself!
 
  1. 1Dx4me wrote:
Bernie, that is what i have heard from a few owners--i haven't had the opportunity to compare the 2 revs, myself!
I’ve heard that too but so far the people I’ve heard it from cite TDP as their source of the information. I haven’t found anyone else who has really done a careful side by side. What I have seen are some very pleasing results from a friend who uses the mk3 with the 2x mk3 TC on his 1dx mk3 so if it’s softer it can’t be by much.

The lens that bummed me out with the 2x III was the EF 400mm f/4 DO mk2 which has obvious softening wide open, at least the two copies I tried did.

--
Some of my bird photos can be viewed here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gregsbirds/
 
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  1. 1Dx4me wrote:
Bernie, that is what i have heard from a few owners--i haven't had the opportunity to compare the 2 revs, myself!
I’ve heard that too but so far the people I’ve heard it from cite TDP as their source of the information. I haven’t found anyone else who has really done a careful side by side. What I have seen are some very pleasing results from a friend who uses the mk3 with the 2x mk3 TC on his 1dx mk3 so if it’s softer it can’t be by much.

The lens that bummed me out with the 2x III was the EF 400mm f/4 DO mk2 which has obvious softening wide open, at least the two copies I tried did.
 
  1. 1Dx4me wrote:
Bernie, that is what i have heard from a few owners--i haven't had the opportunity to compare the 2 revs, myself!
I’ve heard that too but so far the people I’ve heard it from cite TDP as their source of the information. I haven’t found anyone else who has really done a careful side by side. What I have seen are some very pleasing results from a friend who uses the mk3 with the 2x mk3 TC on his 1dx mk3 so if it’s softer it can’t be by much.

The lens that bummed me out with the 2x III was the EF 400mm f/4 DO mk2 which has obvious softening wide open, at least the two copies I tried did.
Lens softness becomes more prominent as resolution is increased so yes it may not be as noticeable on the 1DX.
Yes but I’m not seeing it on his M6 mk2 shots either. The 400 DO mk2 softness showed up quite nicely on the original 1dx

--
Computer:
AMD Ryzen 9 5950X
X570 Aorus Master
TG Dark Pro 3200 14-14-14-31 64GB RAM
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 Founders Edition
Samsung 860 Evo 4TB
Samsung 860 Evo 4TB
Corsair MP510 960gb
Corsair MP510 960gb
Corsair MP510 4TB(boot)
WD Gold 12TB
WD Gold 12TB
Camera:
Canon EOS R5
Canon RF 15-35 2.8
Canon RF 28-70 2
Canon EF 500 f/4 L IS II USM + 1.4X III
Sigma 105 1.4 DG HSM Art
Canon EF 100-400 4.5-5.6 IS II USM
Stuff:
Gitzo Fluid Gimbal Head
Gitzo GT4543LS Systematic Series 4 Carbon eXact Long Tripod
Benro Mach3 TMA38CL Carbon Fibre Tripod
Benro G3 Ball Head
 
  1. 1Dx4me wrote:
Bernie, that is what i have heard from a few owners--i haven't had the opportunity to compare the 2 revs, myself!
I’ve heard that too but so far the people I’ve heard it from cite TDP as their source of the information. I haven’t found anyone else who has really done a careful side by side. What I have seen are some very pleasing results from a friend who uses the mk3 with the 2x mk3 TC on his 1dx mk3 so if it’s softer it can’t be by much.

The lens that bummed me out with the 2x III was the EF 400mm f/4 DO mk2 which has obvious softening wide open, at least the two copies I tried did.
Lens softness becomes more prominent as resolution is increased so yes it may not be as noticeable on the 1DX.
The only lenses that I found the 2x iii TC worked well on were the 300 f/2.8 is ii and 400 f/2.8 is ii. Other than that, the 500's, 600's, and 400 do is II demonstrated image degradation that I didn't find acceptable. Some people loved the 2x on the 400 DO IS II.
 
  1. 1Dx4me wrote:
Bernie, that is what i have heard from a few owners--i haven't had the opportunity to compare the 2 revs, myself!
I’ve heard that too but so far the people I’ve heard it from cite TDP as their source of the information. I haven’t found anyone else who has really done a careful side by side. What I have seen are some very pleasing results from a friend who uses the mk3 with the 2x mk3 TC on his 1dx mk3 so if it’s softer it can’t be by much.

The lens that bummed me out with the 2x III was the EF 400mm f/4 DO mk2 which has obvious softening wide open, at least the two copies I tried did.
Lens softness becomes more prominent as resolution is increased so yes it may not be as noticeable on the 1DX.
The only lenses that I found the 2x iii TC worked well on were the 300 f/2.8 is ii and 400 f/2.8 is ii. Other than that, the 500's, 600's, and 400 do is II demonstrated image degradation that I didn't find acceptable. Some people loved the 2x on the 400 DO IS II.
I too typically don’t use my 2x lll due to some minimal degradation. I have a 1.4 lll glued to my My 400 DO ll and the results have been excellent. I have tried the 2x lll with the 400 DO ll and found the results to be good, but less than satisfactory for continued use. The results were the same on the 500/600F4 ll.

--
Some Wildlife Images:
-----
https://www.flickr.com/photos/128728392@N05/albums/72157648429825829
————-
https://fineartamerica.com/profiles/16-david-garcia?tab=artworkgalleries
 
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  1. 1Dx4me wrote:
Bernie, that is what i have heard from a few owners--i haven't had the opportunity to compare the 2 revs, myself!
I’ve heard that too but so far the people I’ve heard it from cite TDP as their source of the information. I haven’t found anyone else who has really done a careful side by side. What I have seen are some very pleasing results from a friend who uses the mk3 with the 2x mk3 TC on his 1dx mk3 so if it’s softer it can’t be by much.

The lens that bummed me out with the 2x III was the EF 400mm f/4 DO mk2 which has obvious softening wide open, at least the two copies I tried did.
Lens softness becomes more prominent as resolution is increased so yes it may not be as noticeable on the 1DX.
The only lenses that I found the 2x iii TC worked well on were the 300 f/2.8 is ii and 400 f/2.8 is ii. Other than that, the 500's, 600's, and 400 do is II demonstrated image degradation that I didn't find acceptable. Some people loved the 2x on the 400 DO IS II.
Yeah I generally try to ignore the existence of the 2X, 1.4X is where it's at.
 
  1. 1Dx4me wrote:
Bernie, that is what i have heard from a few owners--i haven't had the opportunity to compare the 2 revs, myself!
I’ve heard that too but so far the people I’ve heard it from cite TDP as their source of the information. I haven’t found anyone else who has really done a careful side by side. What I have seen are some very pleasing results from a friend who uses the mk3 with the 2x mk3 TC on his 1dx mk3 so if it’s softer it can’t be by much.

The lens that bummed me out with the 2x III was the EF 400mm f/4 DO mk2 which has obvious softening wide open, at least the two copies I tried did.
Lens softness becomes more prominent as resolution is increased so yes it may not be as noticeable on the 1DX.
The only lenses that I found the 2x iii TC worked well on were the 300 f/2.8 is ii and 400 f/2.8 is ii. Other than that, the 500's, 600's, and 400 do is II demonstrated image degradation that I didn't find acceptable. Some people loved the 2x on the 400 DO IS II.
Wow, maybe there's an art to using a 2x, but 8 times out of 10, my 2x and 500L II produce images that are undeniably sharp. So much, that there are times I leave it on when I don't need to, ESPECIALLY with the R5. The R5 almost doesn't care there is a 2x on the lens making the only downfalls a narrow field of view, very slight sharpness loss and light loss. Its just been amazing lately, I've been shooting darting kingfishers with it and picking them up mid flight from surprise sightings. In the past, this was completely unheard.
 
  1. 1Dx4me wrote:
Bernie, that is what i have heard from a few owners--i haven't had the opportunity to compare the 2 revs, myself!
I’ve heard that too but so far the people I’ve heard it from cite TDP as their source of the information. I haven’t found anyone else who has really done a careful side by side. What I have seen are some very pleasing results from a friend who uses the mk3 with the 2x mk3 TC on his 1dx mk3 so if it’s softer it can’t be by much.

The lens that bummed me out with the 2x III was the EF 400mm f/4 DO mk2 which has obvious softening wide open, at least the two copies I tried did.
Lens softness becomes more prominent as resolution is increased so yes it may not be as noticeable on the 1DX.
The only lenses that I found the 2x iii TC worked well on were the 300 f/2.8 is ii and 400 f/2.8 is ii. Other than that, the 500's, 600's, and 400 do is II demonstrated image degradation that I didn't find acceptable. Some people loved the 2x on the 400 DO IS II.
Wow, maybe there's an art to using a 2x, but 8 times out of 10, my 2x and 500L II produce images that are undeniably sharp. So much, that there are times I leave it on when I don't need to, ESPECIALLY with the R5. The R5 almost doesn't care there is a 2x on the lens making the only downfalls a narrow field of view, very slight sharpness loss and light loss. Its just been amazing lately, I've been shooting darting kingfishers with it and picking them up mid flight from surprise sightings. In the past, this was completely unheard.
 
  1. 1Dx4me wrote:
Bernie, that is what i have heard from a few owners--i haven't had the opportunity to compare the 2 revs, myself!
I’ve heard that too but so far the people I’ve heard it from cite TDP as their source of the information. I haven’t found anyone else who has really done a careful side by side. What I have seen are some very pleasing results from a friend who uses the mk3 with the 2x mk3 TC on his 1dx mk3 so if it’s softer it can’t be by much.

The lens that bummed me out with the 2x III was the EF 400mm f/4 DO mk2 which has obvious softening wide open, at least the two copies I tried did.
Lens softness becomes more prominent as resolution is increased so yes it may not be as noticeable on the 1DX.
The only lenses that I found the 2x iii TC worked well on were the 300 f/2.8 is ii and 400 f/2.8 is ii. Other than that, the 500's, 600's, and 400 do is II demonstrated image degradation that I didn't find acceptable. Some people loved the 2x on the 400 DO IS II.
Wow, maybe there's an art to using a 2x, but 8 times out of 10, my 2x and 500L II produce images that are undeniably sharp. So much, that there are times I leave it on when I don't need to, ESPECIALLY with the R5. The R5 almost doesn't care there is a 2x on the lens making the only downfalls a narrow field of view, very slight sharpness loss and light loss. Its just been amazing lately, I've been shooting darting kingfishers with it and picking them up mid flight from surprise sightings. In the past, this was completely unheard.
I genuinely think the dude needs to re-evaluate his ideas, Jan Wegener did a video on teleconverters with the 600 prime and stated himself there's no real noticeable difference in image quality, there's certainly been no massive difference when I've used one however I don't like it due to making lens f8.

5DSR isn't exactly the best of cameras to begin with.... But I'm sticking with my own experience with the lenses and converters rather than taking someones opinion on a forum.
I do agree with a lot of what you said, but the part about the 5DSr... eh not so much. No camera I've shot has looked better. I suppose the Sony 60MP sensor will best it, but the 6 or 7 year old 5DSr definitely delivers in real IQ (not the shadow raising craze the world is set on). I remember looking at the back of the camera and seeing so much detail that I was just blown away. Even the R5 doesn't give that feeling with a very similar pixel count. It not pixel density, because my 7D2 has similar density and still never gave me that wow-factor. That camera was special and never got the attention I believe it deserved due to the lack of dynamic range Canon bodies had at that time. The only thing I felt let it down by, a little, was the AF. It was good, but the 7D2 grabbed shoots it couldn't consistently.

--
Mike Jackson - Wildlife Photography Enthusiast
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mj_flickr/
 
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  1. 1Dx4me wrote:
Bernie, that is what i have heard from a few owners--i haven't had the opportunity to compare the 2 revs, myself!
I’ve heard that too but so far the people I’ve heard it from cite TDP as their source of the information. I haven’t found anyone else who has really done a careful side by side. What I have seen are some very pleasing results from a friend who uses the mk3 with the 2x mk3 TC on his 1dx mk3 so if it’s softer it can’t be by much.

The lens that bummed me out with the 2x III was the EF 400mm f/4 DO mk2 which has obvious softening wide open, at least the two copies I tried did.
Lens softness becomes more prominent as resolution is increased so yes it may not be as noticeable on the 1DX.
The only lenses that I found the 2x iii TC worked well on were the 300 f/2.8 is ii and 400 f/2.8 is ii. Other than that, the 500's, 600's, and 400 do is II demonstrated image degradation that I didn't find acceptable. Some people loved the 2x on the 400 DO IS II.
Wow, maybe there's an art to using a 2x, but 8 times out of 10, my 2x and 500L II produce images that are undeniably sharp. So much, that there are times I leave it on when I don't need to, ESPECIALLY with the R5. The R5 almost doesn't care there is a 2x on the lens making the only downfalls a narrow field of view, very slight sharpness loss and light loss. Its just been amazing lately, I've been shooting darting kingfishers with it and picking them up mid flight from surprise sightings. In the past, this was completely unheard.
I genuinely think the dude needs to re-evaluate his ideas, Jan Wegener did a video on teleconverters with the 600 prime and stated himself there's no real noticeable difference in image quality, there's certainly been no massive difference when I've used one however I don't like it due to making lens f8.

5DSR isn't exactly the best of cameras to begin with.... But I'm sticking with my own experience with the lenses and converters rather than taking someones opinion on a forum.
I do agree with a lot of what you said, but the part about the 5DSr... eh not so much. No camera I've shot has looked better. I suppose the Sony 60MP sensor will best it, but the 6 or 7 year old 5DSr definitely delivers in real IQ (not the shadow raising craze the world is set on). I remember looking at the back of the camera and seeing so much detail that I was just blown away. Even the R5 doesn't give that feeling with a very similar pixel count. It not pixel density, because my 7D2 has similar density and still never gave me that wow-factor. That camera was special and never got the attention I believe it deserved due to the lack of dynamic range Canon bodies had at that time. The only thing I felt let it down by, a little, was the AF. It was good, but the 7D2 grabbed shoots it couldn't consistently.
I feel the same way about the 5DSR... it’s a keeper.
 
  1. 1Dx4me wrote:
Bernie, that is what i have heard from a few owners--i haven't had the opportunity to compare the 2 revs, myself!
I’ve heard that too but so far the people I’ve heard it from cite TDP as their source of the information. I haven’t found anyone else who has really done a careful side by side. What I have seen are some very pleasing results from a friend who uses the mk3 with the 2x mk3 TC on his 1dx mk3 so if it’s softer it can’t be by much.

The lens that bummed me out with the 2x III was the EF 400mm f/4 DO mk2 which has obvious softening wide open, at least the two copies I tried did.
Lens softness becomes more prominent as resolution is increased so yes it may not be as noticeable on the 1DX.
The only lenses that I found the 2x iii TC worked well on were the 300 f/2.8 is ii and 400 f/2.8 is ii. Other than that, the 500's, 600's, and 400 do is II demonstrated image degradation that I didn't find acceptable. Some people loved the 2x on the 400 DO IS II.
Wow, maybe there's an art to using a 2x, but 8 times out of 10, my 2x and 500L II produce images that are undeniably sharp. So much, that there are times I leave it on when I don't need to, ESPECIALLY with the R5. The R5 almost doesn't care there is a 2x on the lens making the only downfalls a narrow field of view, very slight sharpness loss and light loss. Its just been amazing lately, I've been shooting darting kingfishers with it and picking them up mid flight from surprise sightings. In the past, this was completely unheard.
Just haven’t had any success with the 2x iii on the 500 is ii or 600 is. The loss of sharpness and contrast is just unacceptable. The same TC was solid on both my 300 & 400 f/2.8.
 
  1. 1Dx4me wrote:
Bernie, that is what i have heard from a few owners--i haven't had the opportunity to compare the 2 revs, myself!
I’ve heard that too but so far the people I’ve heard it from cite TDP as their source of the information. I haven’t found anyone else who has really done a careful side by side. What I have seen are some very pleasing results from a friend who uses the mk3 with the 2x mk3 TC on his 1dx mk3 so if it’s softer it can’t be by much.

The lens that bummed me out with the 2x III was the EF 400mm f/4 DO mk2 which has obvious softening wide open, at least the two copies I tried did.
Lens softness becomes more prominent as resolution is increased so yes it may not be as noticeable on the 1DX.
The only lenses that I found the 2x iii TC worked well on were the 300 f/2.8 is ii and 400 f/2.8 is ii. Other than that, the 500's, 600's, and 400 do is II demonstrated image degradation that I didn't find acceptable. Some people loved the 2x on the 400 DO IS II.
Wow, maybe there's an art to using a 2x, but 8 times out of 10, my 2x and 500L II produce images that are undeniably sharp. So much, that there are times I leave it on when I don't need to, ESPECIALLY with the R5. The R5 almost doesn't care there is a 2x on the lens making the only downfalls a narrow field of view, very slight sharpness loss and light loss. Its just been amazing lately, I've been shooting darting kingfishers with it and picking them up mid flight from surprise sightings. In the past, this was completely unheard.
Just haven’t had any success with the 2x iii on the 500 is ii or 600 is. The loss of sharpness and contrast is just unacceptable. The same TC was solid on both my 300 & 400 f/2.8.
yes, i have the same experience with my 300 f2.8 II/600 f4.0 II. ironically, i took some very decent shots with my 100400 II + TC 2.0x III, i was very impressed. however, i turned off the IS and that seemed to help a lot! i only had a few second to do MF before the bird took off ;-)
 

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