DxO DeepPrime versus Prime, results and controls

Digital Nigel said:

CrisL said:

In case we still need to be convinced we can look at this video from PhotoJoseph Don't known if it was already posted but I post it because this is exactly what I am seeing with my pictures

Click to expand...

Thanks, that's a very informative, succinct video.

It strikes me that all the changes are surprises. Despite all the speculation and wish lists, DxO seems to have been able to maintain an effective embargo. I certainly didn't guess what would be in PL 4. For, example, I thought there might be improvements to the local adjustments, or NIK features incorporated, but I don't think either happened.

Another thought: now that PL 4 makes Topaz DeNoise AI almost redundant (I don't think I'll be paying for enhanced versions of it), will PL 5 do the same to Sharpen AI?

Click to expand...

If you are already inside the DxO world that's true - Topaz Denoise will not do better.

But I work with ON1 and I bought into Topaz Denoise AI as even though I like ON1 very much, I was not so glad with the way they do noise reduction. I will stay with Topaz Denoise AI.

A couple of years ago I was almost a "fan" of DxO - but that stopped as I had to buy a new version with every new camera I bought (and the program itself had almost no change compared to the version before).

Holger Bargen said:

Digital Nigel said:

CrisL said:

In case we still need to be convinced we can look at this video from PhotoJoseph Don't known if it was already posted but I post it because this is exactly what I am seeing with my pictures

Click to expand...

Thanks, that's a very informative, succinct video.

It strikes me that all the changes are surprises. Despite all the speculation and wish lists, DxO seems to have been able to maintain an effective embargo. I certainly didn't guess what would be in PL 4. For, example, I thought there might be improvements to the local adjustments, or NIK features incorporated, but I don't think either happened.

Another thought: now that PL 4 makes Topaz DeNoise AI almost redundant (I don't think I'll be paying for enhanced versions of it), will PL 5 do the same to Sharpen AI?

Click to expand...

If you are already inside the DxO world that's true - Topaz Denoise will not do better.

But I work with ON1 and I bought into Topaz Denoise AI as even though I like ON1 very much, I was not so glad with the way they do noise reduction. I will stay with Topaz Denoise AI.

A couple of years ago I was almost a "fan" of DxO - but that stopped as I had to buy a new version with every new camera I bought (and the program itself had almost no change compared to the version before).

Click to expand...

Yes, you do need to be on an up-to-date version of PL to get support for recent cameras. Or, to put it another way, when DxO adds a new camera/lens module, it cannot be used with older versions of PhotoLab.

Major PL releases tend to have one big headline new feature, with several supporting acts. DeepPRIME is obviously that feature with PL4, with several decent other new features. I'll upgrade to it, but will wait till the expected 50% BF discount. If that doesn't happen, I'll just wait till the next 30% discount.

After that, I don't suppose I'll be making much use of DeNoise AI. I probably won't feel much reason to pay for upgrades to it.

Still trying PL4 and encountered a problem. Some images are not being exported after DeepPrime has been applied (red exclamation sign shows up in the lower right corner of the thumbnail. But they can be exported after Prime has been applied. Images are NEF files from Nikon D500.

Has anybody else encountered this problem

@NicholasD

Digital Nigel covered it pretty well. Only use Topaz DeNoise AI after all other adjustments. DNAI sharpening can make things grainy really fast so it takes a light touch. Most of the time I choose the milder treatment of the AI Clear option.

Here is a different version of the ISO 51200 comparison I already posted.

On the left, a jpg export of the raw file with no corrections

Center, PL4 DeepPrime only - no other corrections! I find this amazing!

On the right, a full edit to my taste in PL4 with a final touch of DNAI to clean up some under wing noise





--
"Well done is better than well said" - Benjamin Franklin
You have my express consent to edit any of my images that I post on DPR.

poppyjk said:

@NicholasD

Digital Nigel covered it pretty well. Only use Topaz DeNoise AI after all other adjustments. DNAI sharpening can make things grainy really fast so it takes a light touch. Most of the time I choose the milder treatment of the AI Clear option.

Here is a different version of the ISO 51200 comparison I already posted.

On the left, a jpg export of the raw file with no corrections

Center, PL4 DeepPrime only - no other corrections! I find this amazing!

On the right, a full edit to my taste in PL4 with a final touch of DNAI to clean up some under wing noise

Click to expand...

This is a great example. Very nicely presented.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

NAwlins Contrarian said:

STOP sign area. Look at the StopSign and the mesh immediate to its left.

DXO deepPrime shows a clear superiority here.

Click to expand...

Although I agree the stop sign is a good place to compare, IMO one of the more telling elements of the first photo for comparing noise reduction types is the HC monogram on the left hip of the defender in the foreground on the left side of the larger crop from the photo.


100% crops: no noise reduction, DxO HQ, DxO Prime, and DxO DeepPrime, respectively

Click to expand...

You're right - that's quite an illustrative excerpt. What happens when you reduce the strength of DeepPRIME to 30 or 20? Does the detail improve, with a little bit of grain added back in? Or is it pretty much an all-or-nothing algorithm?

--
https://breakfastographer.wordpress.com

Thanks for the comment.

PhotoLab 4 and the Canon R5 are combining to take my photo image quality up a notch. Now if I could just get out more!

poppyjk said:

@NicholasD

Digital Nigel covered it pretty well. Only use Topaz DeNoise AI after all other adjustments. DNAI sharpening can make things grainy really fast so it takes a light touch. Most of the time I choose the milder treatment of the AI Clear option.

Here is a different version of the ISO 51200 comparison I already posted.

On the left, a jpg export of the raw file with no corrections

Center, PL4 DeepPrime only - no other corrections! I find this amazing!

On the right, a full edit to my taste in PL4 with a final touch of DNAI to clean up some under wing noise

Click to expand...

I can't help feeling that the eye is most personable in the first image.

--
https://breakfastographer.wordpress.com

Breakfastographer 2 said:

poppyjk said:

@NicholasD

Digital Nigel covered it pretty well. Only use Topaz DeNoise AI after all other adjustments. DNAI sharpening can make things grainy really fast so it takes a light touch. Most of the time I choose the milder treatment of the AI Clear option.

Here is a different version of the ISO 51200 comparison I already posted.

On the left, a jpg export of the raw file with no corrections

Center, PL4 DeepPrime only - no other corrections! I find this amazing!

On the right, a full edit to my taste in PL4 with a final touch of DNAI to clean up some under wing noise

Click to expand...

I can't help feeling that the eye is most personable in the first image.

Click to expand...

I have no idea what you are trying to communicate. You are welcome to your opinion, but if you are going to share it publicly please make it comprehendible.

I don't know a single photographer or casual viewer who prefers feature detail in an uncorrected ISO 51200 photo to a competently edited one.

--
"Well done is better than well said" - Benjamin Franklin
You have my express consent to edit any of my images that I post on DPR.

Breakfastographer 2 said:

Breakfastographer 2 said:

Breakfastographer 2 said:

STOP sign area. Look at the StopSign and the mesh immediate to its left.

DXO deepPrime shows a clear superiority here.

Click to expand...

Although I agree the stop sign is a good place to compare, IMO one of the more telling elements of the first photo for comparing noise reduction types is the HC monogram on the left hip of the defender in the foreground on the left side of the larger crop from the photo.


100% crops: no noise reduction, DxO HQ, DxO Prime, and DxO DeepPrime, respectively

Click to expand...

You're right - that's quite an illustrative excerpt. What happens when you reduce the strength of DeepPRIME to 30 or 20? Does the detail improve, with a little bit of grain added back in? Or is it pretty much an all-or-nothing algorithm?

Click to expand...

I have not yet had a chance to develop any real feel for optimum control inputs for DeepPrime. Judging by the settings I used with Prime, this is probably a very heavy application of DeepPrime, more than I would ever consider for 95+% of my photos. Maybe when I've had a chance to test and experiment more I'll post some observations about DeepPrime control settings versus noise reduction achieved and detail preserved (or not).

Sagittarius said:

Still trying PL4 and encountered a problem. Some images are not being exported after DeepPrime has been applied (red exclamation sign shows up in the lower right corner of the thumbnail. But they can be exported after Prime has been applied. Images are NEF files from Nikon D500.

Has anybody else encountered this problem

Click to expand...

Have you used DXO before? If you have the existence of two databases/versions of DOP files can cause what you are seeing.

Ian

poppyjk said:

Breakfastographer 2 said:

poppyjk said:

@NicholasD

Digital Nigel covered it pretty well. Only use Topaz DeNoise AI after all other adjustments. DNAI sharpening can make things grainy really fast so it takes a light touch. Most of the time I choose the milder treatment of the AI Clear option.

Here is a different version of the ISO 51200 comparison I already posted.

On the left, a jpg export of the raw file with no corrections

Center, PL4 DeepPrime only - no other corrections! I find this amazing!

On the right, a full edit to my taste in PL4 with a final touch of DNAI to clean up some under wing noise

Click to expand...

I can't help feeling that the eye is most personable in the first image.

Click to expand...

I have no idea what you are trying to communicate. You are welcome to your opinion, but if you are going to share it publicly please make it comprehendible.

I don't know a single photographer or casual viewer who prefers feature detail in an uncorrected ISO 51200 photo to a competently edited one.

Click to expand...

I'm here to discuss the new algorithm. If you feel this has to do with your competence in any way, I'd prefer not to further discuss it. I hope you understand. Thanks for the sample.

--
https://breakfastographer.wordpress.com

Digital Nigel said:

Holger Bargen said:

Digital Nigel said:

CrisL said:

In case we still need to be convinced we can look at this video from PhotoJoseph Don't known if it was already posted but I post it because this is exactly what I am seeing with my pictures

Click to expand...

Thanks, that's a very informative, succinct video.

It strikes me that all the changes are surprises. Despite all the speculation and wish lists, DxO seems to have been able to maintain an effective embargo. I certainly didn't guess what would be in PL 4. For, example, I thought there might be improvements to the local adjustments, or NIK features incorporated, but I don't think either happened.

Another thought: now that PL 4 makes Topaz DeNoise AI almost redundant (I don't think I'll be paying for enhanced versions of it), will PL 5 do the same to Sharpen AI?

Click to expand...

If you are already inside the DxO world that's true - Topaz Denoise will not do better.

But I work with ON1 and I bought into Topaz Denoise AI as even though I like ON1 very much, I was not so glad with the way they do noise reduction. I will stay with Topaz Denoise AI.

A couple of years ago I was almost a "fan" of DxO - but that stopped as I had to buy a new version with every new camera I bought (and the program itself had almost no change compared to the version before).

Click to expand...

Yes, you do need to be on an up-to-date version of PL to get support for recent cameras. Or, to put it another way, when DxO adds a new camera/lens module, it cannot be used with older versions of PhotoLab.

Click to expand...

Yes, that's the situation. But it is not just the camera/lens module that is blocked - it is the entire new technologiy of the new version that is blocked. I would have to do the upgrade to use Prime denoising which worked well for my old camera models and which did no longer worked for the new camera until I make the upgrade. The camera-lens modules are very nice. However I have a lot of old lenses which were never supported and never will be. It was no problem for me as the rest of the software was good enough for me to work with it. But if central features are blocked for new camera models you either have to follow the upgrade path or look out for something else. And that was what I did. And I ended up with an ON1-Topaz combination that gives everything I need at the moment.

Digital Nigel said:

Major PL releases tend to have one big headline new feature, with several supporting acts. DeepPRIME is obviously that feature with PL4, with several decent other new features. I'll upgrade to it, but will wait till the expected 50% BF discount. If that doesn't happen, I'll just wait till the next 30% discount.

After that, I don't suppose I'll be making much use of DeNoise AI. I probably won't feel much reason to pay for upgrades to it.

Click to expand...

IanYorke said:

Sagittarius said:

Still trying PL4 and encountered a problem. Some images are not being exported after DeepPrime has been applied (red exclamation sign shows up in the lower right corner of the thumbnail. But they can be exported after Prime has been applied. Images are NEF files from Nikon D500.

Has anybody else encountered this problem

Click to expand...

Have you used DXO before? If you have the existence of two databases/versions of DOP files can cause what you are seeing.

Ian

Click to expand...

Yes, I have PL3 installed. But this does not happened to all files, just to some. I opened a ticket with DXO and sent them one file it happened with.

Breakfastographer 2 said:

poppyjk said:

Breakfastographer 2 said:

poppyjk said:

@NicholasD

Digital Nigel covered it pretty well. Only use Topaz DeNoise AI after all other adjustments. DNAI sharpening can make things grainy really fast so it takes a light touch. Most of the time I choose the milder treatment of the AI Clear option.

Here is a different version of the ISO 51200 comparison I already posted.

On the left, a jpg export of the raw file with no corrections

Center, PL4 DeepPrime only - no other corrections! I find this amazing!

On the right, a full edit to my taste in PL4 with a final touch of DNAI to clean up some under wing noise

Click to expand...

I can't help feeling that the eye is most personable in the first image.

Click to expand...

I have no idea what you are trying to communicate. You are welcome to your opinion, but if you are going to share it publicly please make it comprehendible.

I don't know a single photographer or casual viewer who prefers feature detail in an uncorrected ISO 51200 photo to a competently edited one.

Click to expand...

I'm here to discuss the new algorithm. If you feel this has to do with your competence in any way, I'd prefer not to further discuss it. I hope you understand. Thanks for the sample.

Click to expand...

I still have no idea what you are trying to communicate in saying "I can't help feeling that the eye is most personable in the first image."



--
"Well done is better than well said" - Benjamin Franklin
You have my express consent to edit any of my images that I post on DPR.

Sagittarius said:

IanYorke said:

Sagittarius said:

Still trying PL4 and encountered a problem. Some images are not being exported after DeepPrime has been applied (red exclamation sign shows up in the lower right corner of the thumbnail. But they can be exported after Prime has been applied. Images are NEF files from Nikon D500.

Has anybody else encountered this problem

Click to expand...

Have you used DXO before? If you have the existence of two databases/versions of DOP files can cause what you are seeing.

Ian

Click to expand...

Yes, I have PL3 installed. But this does not happened to all files, just to some. I opened a ticket with DXO and sent them one file it happened with.

Click to expand...

I had the same issue but only some files. Deleted the DOP files and databases and that sorted it but don't know why?

Ian

IanYorke said:

Sagittarius said:

IanYorke said:

Sagittarius said:

Still trying PL4 and encountered a problem. Some images are not being exported after DeepPrime has been applied (red exclamation sign shows up in the lower right corner of the thumbnail. But they can be exported after Prime has been applied. Images are NEF files from Nikon D500.

Has anybody else encountered this problem

Click to expand...

Have you used DXO before? If you have the existence of two databases/versions of DOP files can cause what you are seeing.

Ian

Click to expand...

Yes, I have PL3 installed. But this does not happened to all files, just to some. I opened a ticket with DXO and sent them one file it happened with.

Click to expand...

I had the same issue but only some files. Deleted the DOP files and databases and that sorted it but don't know why?

Ian

Click to expand...

Deleting DOP file worked. Thanks

I've not used it a lot and overall I feel the interface is not very intuitive. Perhaps I need to commit more time. I just processed a batch of photos. Just stuff for social media. Nothing magical that I want to spend a lot of time working on. I set up a preset with deep Prime and decided to process all of the images and export them as highest quality jpegs. I was impressed with the results. The deep Prime is an improvement and images export much faster than using Prime in version 3. I think it's making much more efficient use of the discrete gpu. IMO, the camera/lens modules coupled with deep Prime really produce nice output. I think my regular workflow (not for special images) will be to just run raw files through DxO, output as full sized jpegs. Then crop and do any light editing in other software. Obviously, not optimal for all images and not what I'd do for "special" images.

SkiHound said:

I've not used it a lot and overall I feel the interface is not very intuitive. Perhaps I need to commit more time. I just processed a batch of photos. Just stuff for social media. Nothing magical that I want to spend a lot of time working on. I set up a preset with deep Prime and decided to process all of the images and export them as highest quality jpegs. I was impressed with the results. The deep Prime is an improvement and images export much faster than using Prime in version 3. I think it's making much more efficient use of the discrete gpu. IMO, the camera/lens modules coupled with deep Prime really produce nice output. I think my regular workflow (not for special images) will be to just run raw files through DxO, output as full sized jpegs. Then crop and do any light editing in other software. Obviously, not optimal for all images and not what I'd do for "special" images.

Click to expand...

I'd suggest that you'll get better results if you do the light editing (straightening, cropping, WB, use of Smart Lighting, etc) in PL before exporting as JPEGs

It may be my lack of discernment, but a lot of this discussion seems to overstate the difference between DeepPrime and Old Prime. Except for shots taken with small sensor compacts, I don't see much, if any difference, certainly not something that would show up in an 8x10 print. I can give some examples from my own photos. I had to reach a bit because most of my photos are of family and I didn't want to post people shots. So here goes:

I saw the least difference with normally exposed shots from my D750. Below is a shot taken at maximum ISO of 51K with OldPrime (first) and DeepPrime (second). I can definitely see some difference in the details, but, as I stated, I don't think it would be noticeable in an 8x10 print.

Even in the shot taken with my D7000 at its max ISO of 25K, the difference isn't any more dramatic. The only time that I saw a dramatic difference was with a shot that I took to test ISO independence and effect of bit depth and compression on my D750. This shot (below) was taken at ISO 51K and underexposed by 4.66 stops. (By the by, up underexposed by 3.66 stops, I saw virtually no difference between 12 bit and 14 bit, between lossy compression and lossless compression. The shot below is at 14 bit, lossy.)

For my part, I'm struggling to see how the new software is worth $80 an I'm not sure that I'll upgrade. Your mileage will, of course, vary depending what kind of camera and what you do with the photo (e.g., how big you print, crop, or view on screen).


Nikon D750, ISO51k, DxO Prime, Default settings


Nikon D750, ISO51k, DxO DeepPrime, Default settings


Nikon D7000, ISO 25K, OldPrime, Default Settigs


Nikon D7000, ISO 25K, DeepPrime, Default Settings


Nikon D750, ISO 51K, Underexposed by 4.66 stops, OldPrime, Default Settings


Nikon D750, ISO 51K, Underexposed by 4.66 stops, DeepPrime, Default Settings