reliability: em1.3 focus stacking vs lumix post focus

hi,

my head is smoking about which one would serve me better.

target: i like to take shots of plants (complete, parts and macro) beside nature in general, insects too.

the plant shots and insects i`d like to use as reference material for my realistic drawings of them. so more DOF is better while keeping ISO low with imagestabilisation.

i tend more to olympus em1.3 + 12-100+60macro but have too the S5 on screen with lenses to come (sigma 105 macro). the S line is very attractive.

i read the internal focusstackings doesn't work always 100% properly, but i don't mind taking 3-5 shots if then one perfect shot is there.

instead of taking 70 shots and then sitting in front of pc, i rather prefer the internal focusstackings IF usable at least 80% and think the 15 pic stack with olympus is enough.

too it can record the raws too for stacking later on pc if complete fail in camera .

the lumix can do post focus stacking too, but I'm not shure which brand delivers better results in general?

the S5 could do it too, but i saw a german test, where the guy said the S1 took 30sec! for the post focus shot. if i imagine it fails then would be to boring for me.

i know that i could stack the files on pc too, if nothing works.

does anyone have experience?

Quickoo said:

hi,

my head is smoking about which one would serve me better.

target: i like to take shots of plants (complete, parts and macro) beside nature in general, insects too.

Click to expand...

I am an amateur botanist but have discovered a new species of Lomatium (DNA) and have found several plants that are new to certain counties or regions. Over 1000 of my images are on the Burke Herbarium website. I also specialize in Bryophytes.

Quickoo said:

the plant shots and insects i`d like to use as reference material for my realistic drawings of them. so more DOF is better while keeping ISO low with imagestabilisation.

i tend more to olympus em1.3 + 12-100+60macro but have too the S5 on screen with lenses to come (sigma 105 macro). the S line is very attractive.

Click to expand...

I will often take an overview shot for scale. My shots are with the 60mm macro and sometimes with a Close-up filter, and more rarely with Extension tubes.

Quickoo said:

i read the internal focusstackings doesn't work always 100% properly, but i don't mind taking 3-5 shots if then one perfect shot is there.

Click to expand...

I have used the EM-1 I extensively for In Camera Focus Stacking - particularly with mosses. Since this past winter, I've used the EM-1 II in the same function. The EM-1 II is significantly better in Focus Stacking because you can focus stack in lower light, can shoot up to 15 images, and can use a self timer delay via the Heart camera mode.


Codriophorus varius with about 3mm leaves.

With mosses I have learned that Step 3, ISO 200, F5.6 generally yields very good results. But even moss leaves move with light winds. Also the different shots are taken with different focal points so sometimes you can get ghosting, particularly if you try to go for too great of a DOF. I get the best results when I am able to shoot such that there is a reasonable amount of contrast in the framed image. That is likely a problem with mosses that would not be an issue with vascular plants because shooting moss leaves is a bit like shooting layers of lime jello; there is very little definition. But by and large, I am very happy with the results I get on Bryophytes. To the best of my knowledge there are few images of mosses on the internet that can match these images. The above image was selected randomly.

I don't shoot vascular plants that often with Focus Stacking because the scale is larger, the light is generally better, and there is no issue with contrast. Most often I shoot vascular plants at F11 and the results are usually good enough provided I rationalize my distance from the subject in comparison to expected requirement for DOF.

This was shot in the field with the EM-1 I Focus Stacked with a tripod. Realize that is it very likely as this was being shot that there was some light breeze.


Eurybia integrifolia

When I shoot plants either as a single shot or Focus Stacked, I always shoot 3-4 sets and change my focus point a bit by guesstimate on each shot/stack.

Quickoo said:

instead of taking 70 shots and then sitting in front of pc, i rather prefer the internal focusstackings IF usable at least 80% and think the 15 pic stack with olympus is enough.

too it can record the raws too for stacking later on pc if complete fail in camera .

the lumix can do post focus stacking too, but I'm not shure which brand delivers better results in general?

the S5 could do it too, but i saw a german test, where the guy said the S1 took 30sec! for the post focus shot. if i imagine it fails then would be to boring for me.

i know that i could stack the files on pc too, if nothing works.

does anyone have experience?

Click to expand...

Thanks for you insights.

how low in speed can you go handheld?

I used to have the Panasonic lx10 (very nice little camera) and the Olympus TG4/5/6. The in camera focus stacking of kx10 never managed to produce a flawless result, whereas the TG6 always works great. I think Olympus has the best in camera focus stacking feature in the market.

Works very nicely on my Panasonic G90.

Another option is the very reasonably priced Affinity Photo, has an excellent stacking facility. I bought it just for that, think its was around £25, does lots of other stuff too

Quickoo said:

Thanks for you insights.
how low in speed can you go handheld?

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Since I use the EM-1 II, I don't consider that in low light. And this is especially true for high magnification (macro) because as you shoot your body invariably bobs back and forth and you really have no idea where the focus will land. Hence, you need to shoot many shots hoping that one or two or a few will give the best focus results. I have learned that I get the best results in botany by using MF with Focus Peaking. I will do far better if I use a tripod and Focus Stack.

Now if I am shooting an entire plant and the light is good enough, I will just shoot not approaching 1:1 and will typically take several shots (for the previous reason) at F11 or so depending. Diffraction is not generally a big deal in botanical shots.

This is going to be another new Lomatium related to Lomatium columbianum. I was at this site with the North American expert on Lomatium to collect this plant (I knew where to find it). This is not necessarily the best image I got of this plant.


You need enough detail to show the shape of the terminal leaf segments, the branching pattern, stem detail, the corolla color and detail, and bract detail. I would also take additional shots with more or less detail. Close-up shots might show the existence of hairs or glands on the leaves and the rest of the foliage.

Gary from Seattle said:

Quickoo said:

Thanks for you insights.
how low in speed can you go handheld?

Click to expand...

Since I use the EM-1 II, I don't consider that in low light. And this is especially true for high magnification (macro) because as you shoot your body invariably bobs back and forth and you really have no idea where the focus will land. Hence, you need to shoot many shots hoping that one or two or a few will give the best focus results. I have learned that I get the best results in botany by using MF with Focus Peaking. I will do far better if I use a tripod and Focus Stack.

Now if I am shooting an entire plant and the light is good enough, I will just shoot not approaching 1:1 and will typically take several shots (for the previous reason) at F11 or so depending. Diffraction is not generally a big deal in botanical shots.

This is going to be another new Lomatium related to Lomatium columbianum. I was at this site with the North American expert on Lomatium to collect this plant (I knew where to find it). This is not necessarily the best image I got of this plant.


You need enough detail to show the shape of the terminal leaf segments, the branching pattern, stem detail, the corolla color and detail, and bract detail. I would also take additional shots with more or less detail. Close-up shots might show the existence of hairs or glands on the leaves and the rest of the foliage.

Click to expand...

Hm. Doesn’t sound like the focus stacking is working very good?! Otherwise I think you would use it more?

This feature of in camera focus stacking would be one big reason for me to go to em1.3 OR S5.

Otherwise the Fuji xt4 has an automatic focus bracketing mode which is the best for focus stacking I think, because here you just touch startingpoint A and endingpoint B on display and the xt4 calculates the steps and picturenumber needed automatically!

This has been disciussed a few times and I will summarise as I remember and with my G9 experience.

The G9 does in focus stacking quite well on simple subjects but isn't good enough for using on complex subjects such as the moths I photograph.

The Oly is better but still far from perfect.

I use Affinity with remarkable success

Quickoo said:

Gary from Seattle said:

Quickoo said:

Thanks for you insights.
how low in speed can you go handheld?

Click to expand...

Since I use the EM-1 II, I don't consider that in low light. And this is especially true for high magnification (macro) because as you shoot your body invariably bobs back and forth and you really have no idea where the focus will land. Hence, you need to shoot many shots hoping that one or two or a few will give the best focus results. I have learned that I get the best results in botany by using MF with Focus Peaking. I will do far better if I use a tripod and Focus Stack.

Now if I am shooting an entire plant and the light is good enough, I will just shoot not approaching 1:1 and will typically take several shots (for the previous reason) at F11 or so depending. Diffraction is not generally a big deal in botanical shots.

This is going to be another new Lomatium related to Lomatium columbianum. I was at this site with the North American expert on Lomatium to collect this plant (I knew where to find it). This is not necessarily the best image I got of this plant.


You need enough detail to show the shape of the terminal leaf segments, the branching pattern, stem detail, the corolla color and detail, and bract detail. I would also take additional shots with more or less detail. Close-up shots might show the existence of hairs or glands on the leaves and the rest of the foliage.

Click to expand...

Hm. Doesn’t sound like the focus stacking is working very good?! Otherwise I think you would use it more?

Click to expand...

I don't think you quite get it here. Regardless of how you shoot, if you are using high magnification as in 1:1 or even approaching that, the DOF is going to be very small as in a few mm. Hence, if you move at all as you focus and shoot, you will not know where your focus will land. Now Focus Stacking will give you more latitude, but if you are moving with a high magnification shot you may well get ghosting and certainly will not center your shot where you want to. The answer is simple, use a tripod and precisely, excepting air motion, control your focus point. On the mosses I shoot I may want detail as precise as the shape of teeth at the tip of a 2mm leaf or perhaps .1 or .2 mm. Hence high magnification is mandatory for that degree of detail. But as I said before, with mosses any sensor will not pick up detail because the plants do not often have well defined borders and features, so shooting against a contrasting background becomes necessary. You do not want to shoot most moss images in sunlight.

Shooting a vascular plant like the above Lomatium using Focus Stacking will not require high magnification unless you are trying to identify detail as precise as the shape of forked hairs as in Boechera species (rock cress). And you are likely to be out with the plant isolated and with good light. In fact, there is no reason to use Focus Stacking at all except for artistic reasons because, as you can see in the above image (and that below), all detail is readily accessible without using Focus Stacking. You just will probably shoot such a plant at a distance of one to two feet and will not run into problems of identification or imaging that demands carrying a tripod or Focus Stacking. Sure, you can Focus Stack, but you don't need to.


Phacelia sericea, easily handheld, although only 2 of 4 shots were what I wanted.

Quickoo said:

This feature of in camera focus stacking would be one big reason for me to go to em1.3 OR S5.
Otherwise the Fuji xt4 has an automatic focus bracketing mode which is the best for focus stacking I think, because here you just touch startingpoint A and endingpoint B on display and the xt4 calculates the steps and picturenumber needed automatically!

Click to expand...

In terms of best quality, I think that in camera focus stacking will always be worse than focus stacking your photos in a computer.

Quickoo said:

This feature of in camera focus stacking would be one big reason for me to go to em1.3 OR S5.
Otherwise the Fuji xt4 has an automatic focus bracketing mode which is the best for focus stacking I think, because here you just touch startingpoint A and endingpoint B on display and the xt4 calculates the steps and picturenumber needed automatically!

Click to expand...

Since GX85 (could GX8 as well by a later firmware update?), Post Focus and Focus Bracketing is a general feature to Panasonic (except the entry class GF).

Post Focus (originally not design for focus stacking in mind) is making use the 4K/6K video technology on taking multiple pictures, end up with a MP4 video file, having focus point on every possible focus candidate spreading across the scene. Some members manage to get a lot of shots from a Post Focus shot, but so far I was limited to around 30 frames (because of the 30fps 4K video? Or I was not using a proper macro lens?).

Strength of Panny's PF, available to most classes of its bodies (from the lower end GX85/9, mid range G85/G95, to flagship G9/GH5), and support any native M43 lenses.

The down side is limited to 4K or 6K quality in jpg.

Since unlike Focus Bracketing which use a micro increment on steps of focusing for shots to cover the target, PF depends on the A.I. of the camera (decides where a focus point should be) to spread possible focus points across the scene. Hence for some complex scene it might miss certain sections of the target.

For a tiny flower having a simple background could be great for the PF.

As per a not very old trial by our dear member Trevor, who tested shooting a chopstick resting on a table. IIRC there was another object placed in between that pair of chopsticks in the nearby background, A.I. of G9 missed out part of that object so a small section of that object (looking like a hole in the frame) became OOF after stacking...

Hence I prefer the more conventional Focus Bracketing + stacking in PP for sure result.

It sounds that Fuji might have an easier Focus Bracketing .

My 2 cents.

Hi thanks again, I understood, no problem.
I won’t shoot moss, rather whole plants or parts, and even with f18 on Fuji xt20 mostly with 50mm prime(which is extremely sharp by the way) often not the whole plant/plantpart is in focus.
i shoot from fruits, stem to flowers overviews.

so here I like to have everything of the object in focus.

Ok, so it looks like the internal stacking modes are not so reliable again and the bracketing modes are to be used. Brings me again to the Fuji xt4, because of its auto calculation of focusbrcketing.
i just find the Fuji 80mm macro ridiculous expensive!

So you who use focus bracketing, do you have to experiment with the steps and shots number on every shot?

Quickoo said:

Hi thanks again, I understood, no problem.
I won’t shoot moss, rather whole plants or parts, and even with f18 on Fuji xt20 mostly with 50mm prime(which is extremely sharp by the way) often not the whole plant/plantpart is in focus.
i shoot from fruits, stem to flowers overviews.

so here I like to have everything of the object in focus.

Click to expand...

Well, then, the answer is simple. Either move farther away or Focus Stack your images. I do not shoot as high an aperture as F16 on m4/3. I suspect F18 on Fuji has the same problem. F11 is the highest aperture I will ordinarily shoot, and only rarely so except with plants. F11 there is the peak.

Quickoo said:

Click to expand...

Quickoo said:

Ok, so it looks like the internal stacking modes are not so reliable again and the bracketing modes are to be used. Brings me again to the Fuji xt4, because of its auto calculation of focusbrcketing.

Click to expand...

That is not what I find. In most shots results are very good with the EM-1 II In Camera Focus Stacked. I literally shoot many hundreds of Focus Stacked images each year.

The limitation is ordinarily either using too high a Step between shots or motion from breezes. It is very difficult to get absolutely no air motion. One often needs to take a few different sets of images. Either Stacking or Bracketing will have this same problem.

Quickoo said:

i just find the Fuji 80mm macro ridiculous expensive!

Click to expand...

Gary from Seattle said:

Quickoo said:

Ok, so it looks like the internal stacking modes are not so reliable again and the bracketing modes are to be used. Brings me again to the Fuji xt4, because of its auto calculation of focusbrcketing.

Click to expand...

That is not what I find. In most shots results are very good with the EM-1 II In Camera Focus Stacked. I literally shoot many hundreds of Focus Stacked images each year.

The limitation is ordinarily either using too high a Step between shots or motion from breezes. It is very difficult to get absolutely no air motion. One often needs to take a few different sets of images. Either Stacking or Bracketing will have this same problem.

Click to expand...

You are right! It's really the same problem for both.

Hm.

It's hard to make the right decision.

I use focus stacking with the Olympus RM1x and the 60 macro. No need to experiment. Just set for seven shots at mid interval dirtsnce and the results on flowers and large insects are wonderful.



in low light I can use the HHHR at iso 1600 and F8 and get sharp noise free images.



CDC

Quickoo said:

Gary from Seattle said:

Quickoo said:

Ok, so it looks like the internal stacking modes are not so reliable again and the bracketing modes are to be used. Brings me again to the Fuji xt4, because of its auto calculation of focusbrcketing.

Click to expand...

That is not what I find. In most shots results are very good with the EM-1 II In Camera Focus Stacked. I literally shoot many hundreds of Focus Stacked images each year.

The limitation is ordinarily either using too high a Step between shots or motion from breezes. It is very difficult to get absolutely no air motion. One often needs to take a few different sets of images. Either Stacking or Bracketing will have this same problem.

Click to expand...

You are right! It's really the same problem for both.

Click to expand...

The only advantage in bracketing is that each individual shot covers a range of focus and because of replication from shot to shot you may be able to throw out a few shots and still have the whole subject focused in one shot or another. But in the act of taking a bunch of shots with some motion it is likely that the motion will continue long enough through a whole bunch of closely spaced (temporally) shots.

a tall, skinny plant would be almost impossible to shoot regardless of what method you use as it is certainly swaying. All you can do is to shoot a single frame at high SS and make sure the sensor plane is perpendicular to as much of the plant as possible. My example is Boechera atrorubens.

Quickoo said:

Hm.

It's hard to make the right decision.

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