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The R5 is a very powerful camera when used within the specs and limits set by Canon. Many might find this too limiting, though.
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Should Sony develop an R5-like camera?
- Thread starter kolyy
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Maybe you should let jonpais answer it himself? In any case, any limitations do not explain why should someone be so passionately critical about one camera, while sing such overwhelming praise about another. Brand loyalty would, for example.
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This is a discusssion forum, and the treads are open for all members. I am sure that Jonpais will chime in if he wants to respond.
If you want to restrict a discussion, you have to set the premises from start when you posts. Personally I appreciate open discussions.
Different perspectives, different neeeds, and also different limits for what is acceptable for the gear you use. For my use, a Sony that behaved like the R5 would be close to unuseable.
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jonpais
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This is why.
Sony is trouncing Canon. Canon is the one playing catch-up, not the other way around. The AP knows it, we know it. The Sony a7s III is four to five times more popular than the R5. Every Sony release generates more excitement than any other mirrorless brand. Sony has been overwhelmed with preorders for the camera to the point that Sony can't even keep up with demand even though their factories are functioning at full capacity. The a7R IV is already acknowledged to be a much more capable camera than the R5 for stills shooters. Few Sony shooters will be switching over to Canon for the R5.
[...]
I'm not sure what 13 stops of dynamic range, insane low light sensitivity and full sensor readout 4K 120fps are if not a full generation ahead of all the competition. The a7s III already shoots unlimited 4K 24p. Tests have shown it can record indefinitely until the battery dies, over 2-1/2 hours! And it is not crippled like the competition with a ridiculous 30-minute limit.
The Sony already exceeds these limits!
Sony and Panasonic have demonstrated that oversampled 6K is superb. In fact, the S1H's virtually flawless 4K from oversampled 5.9K has fewer artifacts and less false color than the R5's.
Why would oversampled 8K with a crippled 30-minute limit be preferable to unlimited oversampled 5.9K like the S1H?
I've already shown why 8K is just a marketing buzz word. No serious filmmaker chooses a camera based solely on Ks. The class-leading Canon C500 Mark II, among the best full frame cinema cameras in its price range ($16,000) has an 18.69MP sensor and is leagues better than the 45MP R5. Likewise, no one in their right mind would choose the $6,000 Z Cam E2 F8 over the Canon C500 Mark II just because it has an 8K sensor.
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SafariBob
Veteran Member
Agree 100%
canon crop mode is 1.6x I believe. For it, reaout speed is just about 1/100. And images are around 17MP. It makes a 400mm 640mm too which is another nice perk. You don't have to use crop mode either. Don't zoom in as much and crop later.
More pixels means more options.
Sure, go ahead.
Maybe it will surprise you, but the R5, as it is, is also unusable for my needs. And the A7S III as well and also many other cameras, for example the A7R II or the A6100. Each for a different reason. However, the Z7 or the A6400 would be very usable to me.
That might need a clarification though. Of course, I would be able to shoot with any of these cameras, if I was forced to, for some reason. And in the same manner, I expect you would be able to shoot with the R5, whatever your objections are. But I would not buy those cameras, as there is a deal breaker in each of them for my needs.
Thanks for your quite lengthy reply, but this is so overboard with brand loyalty, that I am not even sure if I should take it seriously. Let's try.
Canon has 50% market share, Sony has around 20%, if I am not mistaken. Sony is clearly the one playing catch up, in my opinion. It seems Sony was quite successful during the last couple of years in gaining market share and opening a whole new and profitable market segment with FF mirrorless. Canon has now made a significant move with the introduction of these very strong products.
And this factoid is based on what? Let's be realistic - the A7S III is a niche video-centric camera from a smaller player. The R5 is a mainstream professional camera from the market leader. There can be very little doubt which will sell more. That does not mean the A7S III is a bad product, it can be very successful in its target market, which I suspect it will. But these two cameras are not even competing with each other. Maybe with the exception of the R5 being able to catch some video-centric customers at which the A7S III is aimed at.
Sentences like this really fail to paint a good light on your motivations. Obviously, it's very hard to say which product generates more or less excitement without some serious market research. Guess what it smells like when someone claims that a particular brand generates more excitement than any other?
Factoid?
By whom?
Sure. That does not bother Canon in the slightest, I guess. What might bother Sony, however, is if much fewer EF users were now switching to Sony, compared to the situation before the R5/R6 launch.
Beyond some of those being made up factoids, why would any of that be even relevant? Yes, the A7S III, as a video-centric camera, has some advantages for video. That is sort of expected. So what?
Sony? You mean the A7S III. My A7 III can't do it and neither does any other Sony camera, beyond the A7S III. Which is of little help, if one is not interested in a low resolution video camera.
My A7 III does oversampled 6K as well, so what? Why is that relevant? And I see another made up factoid.
Because someone might not be interested in a huge video-centric 24Mpx camera with a fan using a niche mount with a small selection of expensive lenses with contrast based autofocus?
Why are you arguing about 8K? Who cares about that? What serious filmmakers do you talk about? I am not a filmmaker. Is anybody a filmmaker here?
Look, this is not a game where you wish one team to win and the other to loose. This is about us, the customers, who can choose which product to buy, The question was, what is your opinion, should Sony make a camera with some similar basic features as in the R5? Let's call it the A9R, to avoid confusion. The A7S III has nothing to do with it, it's a different camera. So, should Sony make an A9R? Would you consider buying it?
stevevuoso
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Th R5 does 12 fps with a mechanical shutter.
jonpais
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Sony cameras are the best selling full frame cameras in the world and Sony has sold the most mirrorless cameras overall for more than eight years. The wildly successful a7 III has held the honor of being the bestselling full frame mirrorless camera for over 2-1/2 years. Anyone want to hazard a guess where the R5 will be in 2-1/2 years? At Walmart’s? 
Even in the EOS R subforums, members are already frantically starting threads dreaming how the R5 Mark II will fix everything that’s wrong with the R5. 
The AP saw the writing on the wall and has asked its staff to turn in their outdated Canon gear. Some have suggested Sony make a halo product, one that shows off technology but which isn’t practical and doesn’t sell. Canon beat them to it.
Ultimately, it's lenses that determine the look of a photograph, and the selection of E mount lenses is unparalleled. Same with the tiring discussion of 8K, whose impact on image quality is negligible and which pales into insignificance beside HDR, the single greatest advancement in cinema since the talkies.
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Even in the EOS R subforums, members are already frantically starting threads dreaming how the R5 Mark II will fix everything that’s wrong with the R5. The AP saw the writing on the wall and has asked its staff to turn in their outdated Canon gear. Some have suggested Sony make a halo product, one that shows off technology but which isn’t practical and doesn’t sell. Canon beat them to it.Ultimately, it's lenses that determine the look of a photograph, and the selection of E mount lenses is unparalleled. Same with the tiring discussion of 8K, whose impact on image quality is negligible and which pales into insignificance beside HDR, the single greatest advancement in cinema since the talkies.
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MrGubrz
Senior Member
fixed for you
hehe
actually id like an r5 sized a9iii with built in vert grip & 36mp sensor. just a BIT of a bump in mp is fine by me if they can continue with the sensor read speed.
I would like a dedicated exp comp dial, tho, unlike the r5. but I DO want those 1.2 lenses. I need a Sonon... or a Cany... im not sure. lol
SilvanBromide
Veteran Member
Whereas the a7Riii, a7Riv and a9ii "only" do 10fps with mechanical shutter.
So that's a 2fps advantage for the R5 that might be attractive to some users.
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stevevuoso
Well-known member
SilvanBromide
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Could be - I haven't checked, so I'll take your word for it.
But if you are inclined to get into the weeds with quibbles like that, maybe it should also be noted that:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64227099
The R5 loses a fair bit of low-ISO DR when the electronic shutter is used. For most folk, that's probably a more significant real-world impact than compressed/uncompressed on the Riv.
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MicahSYL
Veteran Member
Flat sensor, Mirrorless.
These are visionary technologies 5 years ago.
Sony catching up with Canon?
I have been using these technologies for the last 5 years since Sony releases their MILC.
Now I would expect another visionary development from Sony and not the same old stuff that Canon just brought out to market.
Better spent time on something more revolutionary please.
Combining A7SIII + A7R3 - is good but nothing new.
I hope people will not get back into a well, and see the world as that little round hole.
Cheers for a more fascinating horizon.
These are visionary technologies 5 years ago.
Sony catching up with Canon?
I have been using these technologies for the last 5 years since Sony releases their MILC.
Now I would expect another visionary development from Sony and not the same old stuff that Canon just brought out to market.
Better spent time on something more revolutionary please.
Combining A7SIII + A7R3 - is good but nothing new.
I hope people will not get back into a well, and see the world as that little round hole.
Cheers for a more fascinating horizon.
"A vertical travel focal plane shutter exposes a sensor with a moving slit that lets light through. Focal plane shutters can cause moving subjects to appear skewed to one side as they only expose part of the frame as they travel, as shown in the picture below the diagram."
MicahSYL
Veteran Member
Makes sense to satisfy those who will be interested.
But what are they really interested in the Video Spec?
Are they really seeking out the 8K?
vLoggers - how many K videos can they upload to YouTube?
Videographers - are they cinematic videographers or journalism videographers?
I guess what we really need is not our opinions, but who and what the real audiences.
So personally I am not interested in any of these for the A7R4 and R2 have already exceeded my expectations.
Cheers.
silentstorm
Senior Member
From what I see, the video landscape has changed a lot, from expensive Betacams to very expensive digital Betacams to very affordable DV cams to HD, etc etc.
Many people are interested in video and also with the modern sharing culture, u-tube, IG, vimeo, etc etc more and more people want to do video for the cheap. What video spec you asked? The more the better for the same price or lower, this mentality hasn't change. This gave birth to high quality and affordable cameras like the E2 and the Black Magic Cinema Compact Camera.
Are people seeking out 8K? Well, the phones already can shoot 8K, what's not to like for the same price as phones 3 yrs ago? Who's complaining?
Real audiences? That includes everyone who will buy the camera for the same price as yesterday's for even more features, including myself. :-D I jumped from 7r to 7r.3 and I got 4K for the same price! Better features like IBIS and 42MP!
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MicahSYL
Veteran Member
Makes sense, but as I written, we really do not know who the audiences are and what are they looking. Unless there is a proper survey done, or whatever, but here you and me, are just 2 audiences, I definitely don't represent the audience.
Anyway to buy a phone with all the extra is not the same as already have a phone and still want to buy a USD 3-4K camera. The decision factors are quite different.
Firstly do we have a phone that cost USD 3-4K?
Will their thinking be the same when choosing their USD 1K phone, as choosing a USD 3K camera?
Too many variables for me to compute, I am not able and also not interested to know what they will based on to decide.
As I had previously written,
So personally I am not interested in any of these for the A7R4 and R2 have already exceeded my expectations.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, but at 65+ years old, I guess my thinking pattern is not flexi enough to accommodate much. Cheers. Let us put it as my old age issue.
silentstorm
Senior Member
I don't think it's an age issue, to me it is more like different strokes for different folks.As I had previously written,
So personally I am not interested in any of these for the A7R4 and R2 have already exceeded my expectations.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, but at 65+ years old, I guess my thinking pattern is not flexi enough to accommodate much. Cheers. Let us put it as my old age issue.
Like myself, not that I want 4K, but it is more of a case "have it flaunt it". More features for the same price, might as well explore them, no loss.
As the market saturates or shifts, companies would want to put more into their products to entice customers. In the case of Canon R5, they chose 8K raw into CFexpress storage. Some buy it for need, some buy it for fun, some but it not for the 8K video at all, many different reasons. But 8K video is a selling point no doubt, unique from the rest in the consumer camera market currently.
In this scenario, Sony can show that they are equally competitive in this hybrid camera segment. It is doable, therefore I voted yes.
And if anyone wondering about overheating issue, there's a thread now in Canon R forum that mentioned a Chinese guy modded his R5 to lower the temperature, but it is still being crippled. His conclusion is that Canon likely crippled it in software. So I believe if Sony were to do it, they can easily handle the heat issue.
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