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HEIF/HEIC in the X-T4, X100V, etc

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yayatosorus

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Hi, I've been wondering if Fuji was ever going to implement the HEIF format into their cameras to go along the jpg and raw formats, it could very well be in this next iteration of bodies. Would any of you welcome that (considering the implementation may result in Fuji having to put aside some other software related improvements) or are you happy with the current state of things? Thanks.
 
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Interesting question, but for those of us who have no idea of what HEIF/HEIC is/are, perhaps you would be kind enough to set out what, from your perspective, the benefits might be?

Also, assuming that these benefits are something that you/we might want, what might we have to give up to get them?
 
That's a very good remark, thanks for pointing it out.

In a nutshell, the High Efficiency Image File Format (HEIF), also known as High Efficiency Image Coding (HEIC) is a file format, which is (as pointed in the name format) more efficient when it comes to the ratio image quality - file size. What that means is that you can capture images, which take as much storage space or less than classic .jpg files, and retain much more details. Now this format also exists for video (named HEVC), and has already been implemented into a wide range of devices including Fujis.

The drawbacks are that the implementation of this format for stills has been somewhat slow, and although it is now available with the latest iPhones, it is supported by Adobe and Canon just made the move to implement the HEIF format into its 1DXIII, most social media platforms don't support it, so as of now there are still some limitations.

When it comes to actually implementing the beast, if I understand it correctly, it is rather time consuming, which can draw a considerable amount of the manufacturer's resources. On the other hand most manufacturers will make the jump at some point, so one can debate why not now.
 
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yayatosorus said:
Hi, I've been wondering if Fuji was ever going to implement the HEIF format into their cameras to go along the jpg and raw formats, it could very well be in this next iteration of bodies. Would any of you welcome that (considering the implementation may result in Fuji having to put aside some other software related improvements) or are you happy with the current state of things? Thanks.
Click to expand...
I'd much rather see dng support first. Then people could quit complaining about LR's raw processing.
 
Got it! Thanks for the clarification.
 
Seems that the industry leader is moving that way:

Canon Has ‘Moved On to HEIF,’ But Won’t Ditch JPEG Completely… Yet

"Canon clarified that they “have no plans to abandon JPEGs just give users a new image option,” but this begs the question: why would someone shoot 8-bit JPEGs when they could capture more data at a similar file size with a 10-bit HEIF?"
 
This has been discussed before in a long thread.

Loading…

www.dpreview.com
 
R_U_Q_R_U said:
Seems that the industry leader is moving that way:

Canon Has ‘Moved On to HEIF,’ But Won’t Ditch JPEG Completely… Yet

"Canon clarified that they “have no plans to abandon JPEGs just give users a new image option,” but this begs the question: why would someone shoot 8-bit JPEGs when they could capture more data at a similar file size with a 10-bit HEIF?"
Click to expand...
Because for now a JPEG is a much more universal format. You can use it anywhere and with anything without worry.
 
HatWearingFool said:
yayatosorus said:
Hi, I've been wondering if Fuji was ever going to implement the HEIF format into their cameras to go along the jpg and raw formats, it could very well be in this next iteration of bodies. Would any of you welcome that (considering the implementation may result in Fuji having to put aside some other software related improvements) or are you happy with the current state of things? Thanks.
Click to expand...
I'd much rather see dng support first. Then people could quit complaining about LR's raw processing.
Click to expand...
That wouldn't stop any of the complaining :-D

With DNG the actual data is no different from the raw file . This can be shown by converting a RAF to DNG using Adobe's DNG converter and opening both the RAF and DNG in Lightroom or Camera Raw.

I am also pretty certain that when opening RAW files of any kind, the newer Adobe products are internally 'converting' said RAW file into a single format, which would be DNG.
 
giarc said:
HatWearingFool said:
yayatosorus said:
Hi, I've been wondering if Fuji was ever going to implement the HEIF format into their cameras to go along the jpg and raw formats, it could very well be in this next iteration of bodies. Would any of you welcome that (considering the implementation may result in Fuji having to put aside some other software related improvements) or are you happy with the current state of things? Thanks.
Click to expand...
I'd much rather see dng support first. Then people could quit complaining about LR's raw processing.
Click to expand...
That wouldn't stop any of the complaining :-D

With DNG the actual data is no different from the raw file . This can be shown by converting a RAF to DNG using Adobe's DNG converter and opening both the RAF and DNG in Lightroom or Camera Raw.

I am also pretty certain that when opening RAW files of any kind, the newer Adobe products are internally 'converting' said RAW file into a single format, which would be DNG.
Click to expand...
Depends on what kind of dng Fuji created. They could do a 3 layer file just like iridient generates. So that the processing is already complete. But it would mean larger files. I'd still like to see this option if Fuji sticks with x-trans.
 
Thanks, Truman - don’t know about the OP, but I hadn’t seen that thread. Very useful.
 
yayatosorus said:
Hi, I've been wondering if Fuji was ever going to implement the HEIF format into their cameras to go along the jpg and raw formats, it could very well be in this next iteration of bodies. Would any of you welcome that (considering the implementation may result in Fuji having to put aside some other software related improvements) or are you happy with the current state of things? Thanks.
Click to expand...
No that I've thought about this a bit more...

Given how much more data the HEIC format can keep over the jpeg I wonder how much pp latitude that would give photographers?

I've done some digging and it seems you wouldn't gain much latitude because most people are more worried about file size. So you get a file with the same info at 50% of the size, even though in theory if you kept the file size the same you'd end up with more data.

But regardless you lose the ability to radically edit WB and that is raw's greatest strength.
 
HatWearingFool said:
giarc said:
HatWearingFool said:
yayatosorus said:
Hi, I've been wondering if Fuji was ever going to implement the HEIF format into their cameras to go along the jpg and raw formats, it could very well be in this next iteration of bodies. Would any of you welcome that (considering the implementation may result in Fuji having to put aside some other software related improvements) or are you happy with the current state of things? Thanks.
Click to expand...
I'd much rather see dng support first. Then people could quit complaining about LR's raw processing.
Click to expand...
That wouldn't stop any of the complaining :-D

With DNG the actual data is no different from the raw file . This can be shown by converting a RAF to DNG using Adobe's DNG converter and opening both the RAF and DNG in Lightroom or Camera Raw.

I am also pretty certain that when opening RAW files of any kind, the newer Adobe products are internally 'converting' said RAW file into a single format, which would be DNG.
Click to expand...
Depends on what kind of dng Fuji created. They could do a 3 layer file just like iridient generates. So that the processing is already complete. But it would mean larger files. I'd still like to see this option if Fuji sticks with x-trans.
Click to expand...
Honest question: curious why native DNGs matter to you if they stick with X-Trans? I can understand wanting native DNGs, its just the qualifier of 'sticking' with X-Trans I'm not understanding.
 
Why should they add it only to only the newest cameras? I guess this file formate can be implemented by software update...
 
giarc said:
HatWearingFool said:
giarc said:
HatWearingFool said:
yayatosorus said:
Hi, I've been wondering if Fuji was ever going to implement the HEIF format into their cameras to go along the jpg and raw formats, it could very well be in this next iteration of bodies. Would any of you welcome that (considering the implementation may result in Fuji having to put aside some other software related improvements) or are you happy with the current state of things? Thanks.
Click to expand...
I'd much rather see dng support first. Then people could quit complaining about LR's raw processing.
Click to expand...
That wouldn't stop any of the complaining :-D

With DNG the actual data is no different from the raw file . This can be shown by converting a RAF to DNG using Adobe's DNG converter and opening both the RAF and DNG in Lightroom or Camera Raw.

I am also pretty certain that when opening RAW files of any kind, the newer Adobe products are internally 'converting' said RAW file into a single format, which would be DNG.
Click to expand...
Depends on what kind of dng Fuji created. They could do a 3 layer file just like iridient generates. So that the processing is already complete. But it would mean larger files. I'd still like to see this option if Fuji sticks with x-trans.
Click to expand...
Honest question: curious why native DNGs matter to you if they stick with X-Trans? I can understand wanting native DNGs, its just the qualifier of 'sticking' with X-Trans I'm not understanding.
Click to expand...
Because then it would end then it would end the Raw processor arguments. I would just like to see an end those arguments.

And I wouldn't have to hear about "but raw processing" when I tell someone I use a fuji camera.

But I don't have a real practical reason.

I would like to see HEIF for practical reasons; especially if they weren't used solely to save space. IE. if I could choose to keep parity with jpeg file sizes and keep more information in the file.
 
Autoxave said:
Why should they add it only to only the newest cameras? I guess this file formate can be implemented by software update...
Click to expand...
I suspect it would be hard to add to cameras that they never planned to have the option for. For one thing the buffers might have been constructed in a way that wouldn't allow for files of that size. There could be a lot of ramifications of adopting a file format that is triple the size of the original raws.
 
Why can’t they then add it into ACR or other raw processor? Convert raw to HEIF and then import into LR?

Or, is this strictly an in camera thing?
 
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HatWearingFool said:
Autoxave said:
Why should they add it only to only the newest cameras? I guess this file formate can be implemented by software update...
Click to expand...
I suspect it would be hard to add to cameras that they never planned to have the option for. For one thing the buffers might have been constructed in a way that wouldn't allow for files of that size. There could be a lot of ramifications of adopting a file format that is triple the size of the original raws.
Click to expand...
More likely is JPEG is a standard for just about everything. It will be the "cockroach" of image formats living long after other "better or worse" formats are around. I seriously doubt that even if Fuji adopted a new compressed image format they would abandoned the universally accepted format of JPEG image compression format.

Just because one geek claims it is better - does not mean it is better across the board for all applications. I expect I will be long dead before JPEG is replaced for still images. After all JPEG was developed and refined for stills and HEIF, a.k.a. an offshoot of MPEG is primarily a video format.
 
Truman Prevatt said:
HatWearingFool said:
Autoxave said:
Why should they add it only to only the newest cameras? I guess this file formate can be implemented by software update...
Click to expand...
I suspect it would be hard to add to cameras that they never planned to have the option for. For one thing the buffers might have been constructed in a way that wouldn't allow for files of that size. There could be a lot of ramifications of adopting a file format that is triple the size of the original raws.
Click to expand...
More likely is JPEG is a standard for just about everything. It will be the "cockroach" of image formats living long after other "better or worse" formats are around. I seriously doubt that even if Fuji adopted a new compressed image format they would abandoned the universally accepted format of JPEG image compression format.

Just because one geek claims it is better - does not mean it is better across the board for all applications. I expect I will be long dead before JPEG is replaced for still images. After all JPEG was developed and refined for stills and HEIF, a.k.a. an offshoot of MPEG is primarily a video format.
Click to expand...
This! WebP anyone? ( or any of the other pretenders to the crown that have come and gone over the years...looking at you JPEG 2000)

JPEG is super entrenched, and it will take a lot more than being 'better' for a new format to replace it. By all means Fuji, add HEIF, but its not like we could stop using JPEG files just because we had/have HEIF.
 
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yayatosorus said:
That's a very good remark, thanks for pointing it out.

In a nutshell, the High Efficiency Image File Format (HEIF), also known as High Efficiency Image Coding (HEIC) is a file format, which is (as pointed in the name format) more efficient when it comes to the ratio image quality - file size. What that means is that you can capture images, which take as much storage space or less than classic .jpg files, and retain much more details. Now this format also exists for video (named HEVC), and has already been implemented into a wide range of devices including Fujis.

The drawbacks are that the implementation of this format for stills has been somewhat slow, and although it is now available with the latest iPhones, it is supported by Adobe and Canon just made the move to implement the HEIF format into its 1DXIII, most social media platforms don't support it, so as of now there are still some limitations.

When it comes to actually implementing the beast, if I understand it correctly, it is rather time consuming, which can draw a considerable amount of the manufacturer's resources. On the other hand most manufacturers will make the jump at some point, so one can debate why not now.
Click to expand...
On the video side...

HEVC comes at the cost of needing MUCH more processing power to encode. More power = more heat and more battery drain = bigger heavier cameras or reduced shooting time.

In theory. I wonder if anyone shooting the X-T3 on H.265 could confirm that the battery drains faster? (H.265 is not the same as HEVC but I believe they are very similar as far as drawbacks are concerned)

And as you mention, it is not clear what format will ultimately win, but progress has to be made, so your question is interesting...
 
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