Sony A7R4 threat for Canon (and Nikon) ?

joenj said:

rrc1967 said:

joenj said:

zonoskar said:

73Instamatic said:

mermaidkiller said:

73Instamatic said:

Nikon is using Sony's sensors. So could Canon, if they wanted to. That includes both options: 1) Design the sensor themselves, but subcontract Sony to fab it, or 2) Buy one of the sensors Sony already sells to whomever wants them.

The problem is that Canon wants to manufacture their own sensors. Here are the reasons:

Click to expand...

They already do it, not for their DSLRs but Powershots, the G7XIII and G5XII use presumably Sony RX100M4 sensors which are not the newest.

It is their good right, but why not a new design ? Even, as I said before, the R and RP use older design sensors. What some say in this topic, these cameras are not cutting edge technology.

I am a Canon user since 1986 when I bought the T90 which was more cutting edge for that era than the R(P) now. Much easier user interface with a wheel (which many cameras have now) and no clunky mode dial on top (still present on modern cameras in 2020).

I still have the 6D (first edition), considered an upgrade to the R(P), but for me it is, despite better AF and tilt screen, not innovative enough.

Canon should upgrade the R(P) with an EOS R Mk2 within two years with a real innovative sensor and more builtin computational photography and regular firmware updates.
Otherwise Sony will blow it away with the A7S4, a cheaper cousin of the A7R4 probably released soon.

Click to expand...

Because part of making your own chips is owning and operating your own Fabs.

And you can't produce new sensors that have BSI or stacked memory without upgrading the fab first.

Those 2 things (and others as well) are not just a "design". They require new updated equipment to manufacture.

Plus it actually gets worse. Goto the link that I posted about Canon's lithography equipment. If Canon has to use their own fab equipment in their own fab, then in some cases they have to upgrade that equipment first.... then the fab facility they use to make their own chips .... then their sensors ... and finally the cameras that use them.

THAT is the reason it takes so long.

Where Sony sells chips to everyone else, they get to stay ahead of the curve.

Click to expand...

BSI sensors don't require new litho machines. On-chip ADC doesn't require new litho machines. I even doubt the rumored 60-80 MPix sensor doesn't even require new litho machines as it is the same density as their current APS-C sensors.

The good thing about this rumored high-MP canon EOS-R is that they cannot re-use the 5Ds sensor as that doesn't have DPAF. So they have to design something new. Hopefully it's something really new, and not just an upscaled APS-C sensor from their 80D.

Click to expand...

Canon has neglected research in sensor technology. There was a statement last year (I forgot where I read it) from Canon designers in an interview where they stated this. There is a good chance there will be an all-new sensor for the rumored high-res RS.

Click to expand...

no they haven't.

Canon up there as the top 3 patent holders for sensor technology.

I'd like to see where you read that.

Click to expand...

A patent is an idea. The majority of patents never make it into products. Counting the number of patents as an evidence of how innovative a company is, that is a common mis-concept. What we see as actual products - and not as patents -- is the indication of how much real research has been done.

Click to expand...

a patent must have backing research, which certainly means that canon is spending both research and patent legal dollars on the very subject we're talking about.

Which goes counter to your "Canon has neglected research in sensor technology" definite statement as if it's fact.

Products are most certainly not an indicator of how much research they have done. Many ideas never materialize for countless of reasons, but many are stepping stones to the final products.

and items such as lenses and cameras, it's impossible to count on how many patents were applied during the creation.

mermaidkiller said:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/7747501993/sony-introduces-a7r-iv

Today, Sony announced the new A7R4 with 61MP (why so many, the megapixel race is presumably not over yet ?), but some nice features, like (finally !) 5GHz wifi, very high res 5.76 MP viewfinder (should be about 2000x2880), but also lacking 4K 60fps.

And pixel shift allows making 244MP photos (who needs it ??).

Anyway, Sony is absolutely king in sensor technology and Canon is way behind, such as a 3 year old sensor in the EOS R(P) (from the 2016 5Mk4 and 6Mk2 respectively).

I hope the rumored EOS R Pro (fictional name by me) with 60+MP which would be the successor of the 1DX uses a new sensor, maybe the same as the A7R4 ? Same would apply to the Nikon Z8 and Z9 ? But these are just thoughts.

And Sony is now also threatening the lens king Canon with their new 400mm f/2.8 and 200-600 and some other new lenses rivaling the top end EF and RF lenses.

What are your thoughts ?

Click to expand...

Canon sensors are quite good. The proof is in all of the professional work being done with them. Are Canon sensors somehow holding you back?

Mikeys said:

Quite why so many people stress over the 'threat' to Canon is beyond me. Unless you have shares in Canon. Do these people ever actually take photos, or just talk gear all day, every day. So boring.

Click to expand...

Just look at their galleries .

Sony is nice system but compared to Canon has more disadvantages.

Sensor technology... okay Sony is better according to specs and DR but that difference falls in water in my case because Canon has much better (nicer) color output. No, it is not easy to tweak that every time in RAW conversion system. Everything usual you can do with Sony file you can do the same with Canon's file too. So, what's the problem?? Well if you need to raise exposure for 5 steps in PP then - what a hell are you doing with that camera dude?? Do you know how to properly expose and meter?? In some circumstances you will have slightly more noise in high ISO images, really no big deal. BUT consistent output quality and color accuracy is something much more hard to achieve.
I am professional photographer and retoucher and I have worked two and half years with Nikon and tested many Sony cameras and I can tell you one thing for sure - Currently I wouldn't work with any of them.

Canon white balance, metering and color output is way more consistent and reliable. In many cases with Sony or Nikon you will get great photo and nice colors but in other situations you will have disaster especially in harder lighting situations. If you work with small amount of photos with extra time spent you can fix all that issues pretty well but if you work with large amount of files then you are in serious problem since that issues can't be fixed easy as many people say.

Second, mount... RF mount is much more advanced than Sony. RF optics is superb in every aspect. Soon will come f2.8 and f4 RF lenses in much smaller package and superb optical performances.

EF lenses... All canon EF lens 100% working on RF mount which means you have biggest collection of world best lenses at your hand. You can pick whatever you want without fear will that lens work well on my RF mount body.

So, this issues can't be solved with one new camera body. There is a lot of job for Sony to make their system really competitive with Canon and... Canon is just started.

Regards

--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Dusko Jovic / DuxX /

Kaso said:

Sony has been taking the lead for many years now. Earlier complaints about Sony lack of performance and lack of lenses and the likes apply to Canon's R and RP and RF lenses at this time.

Click to expand...

With the holy trinity due in soon, I wouldn't say that you claim of the lack of lenses is as founded as you claim, especially with native functionality lens adaptation (at least on the canon side). It has only been 9 months. A full lens line up in less than a year is completely unrealistic expectation, no matter how you might frame up.

Kaso said:

Both R and RP are not mature products -- they are equivalent to 6D and T5i, respectively, of the DSLR line. Richer and more rigorous features are expected of Canon regarding its new mirrorless camera line. Don't tell me dual SD card slots are not needed, for example. And Canon must learn to release regular firmware updates to enhance performance of existing features and add new features.

Click to expand...

You were obviously not canon's intended audience.

Kaso said:

Why not something at least at the level of 5D Mark IV, or better? And the RF lenses.

I am using an R and I want an upgrade. Where is it?

Click to expand...

Really? Its been about 9 months since the R was released. Not even sony released an upgrade so quickly for any of their cameras.

Kaso said:

Sony is already a threat to Canon -- with or without the newly announced a7R IV.

Click to expand...

Nah... canon still holds the bigger peace of the pie. Sony is a bigger threat to nikon. Canon (for better or worse) remains market leader for 2 reasons. 1.) Brand recognition, and the masses simply don't know better for the most part. 2.) Over all better system ecosystem, from lighting, to EF lenses, cost/price and the all important pro support.

Point 2.) is about the pros that are still on canon and that will likely remain. These people are the MOST important to camera manufacturers, as the market shrinks it is the pros that you want to keep. These people tend to be on 1-2 generation old models, and have a large and expensive lens collection, and due to the fact that they work day in and day out with their systems they have a tendency of being less prone to being as WOW regarding features on new systems since their own methods and techniques have proven to be robust and true for themselves. High pressure situations, a pro photog may be less likely to risk deviating from their own established process.

Knowing this, is likely why canon has formed the strategy it has regarding the RF mount. Hit is with an acceptable pro lens line up before a pro body. If we had a pro body, most then likely no pros would have switched over, because the holy f2.8 trinity is missing.

So as the rumor goes, the f2.8 trinity is due in the next month or two, with the pro body accelerated to be anounced in the first half of 2020. If that does happen, then they are pretty much on track as far as I am concerned.

rrc1967 said:

joenj said:

rrc1967 said:

joenj said:

zonoskar said:

73Instamatic said:

mermaidkiller said:

73Instamatic said:

Nikon is using Sony's sensors. So could Canon, if they wanted to. That includes both options: 1) Design the sensor themselves, but subcontract Sony to fab it, or 2) Buy one of the sensors Sony already sells to whomever wants them.

The problem is that Canon wants to manufacture their own sensors. Here are the reasons:

Click to expand...

They already do it, not for their DSLRs but Powershots, the G7XIII and G5XII use presumably Sony RX100M4 sensors which are not the newest.

It is their good right, but why not a new design ? Even, as I said before, the R and RP use older design sensors. What some say in this topic, these cameras are not cutting edge technology.

I am a Canon user since 1986 when I bought the T90 which was more cutting edge for that era than the R(P) now. Much easier user interface with a wheel (which many cameras have now) and no clunky mode dial on top (still present on modern cameras in 2020).

I still have the 6D (first edition), considered an upgrade to the R(P), but for me it is, despite better AF and tilt screen, not innovative enough.

Canon should upgrade the R(P) with an EOS R Mk2 within two years with a real innovative sensor and more builtin computational photography and regular firmware updates.
Otherwise Sony will blow it away with the A7S4, a cheaper cousin of the A7R4 probably released soon.

Click to expand...

Because part of making your own chips is owning and operating your own Fabs.

And you can't produce new sensors that have BSI or stacked memory without upgrading the fab first.

Those 2 things (and others as well) are not just a "design". They require new updated equipment to manufacture.

Plus it actually gets worse. Goto the link that I posted about Canon's lithography equipment. If Canon has to use their own fab equipment in their own fab, then in some cases they have to upgrade that equipment first.... then the fab facility they use to make their own chips .... then their sensors ... and finally the cameras that use them.

THAT is the reason it takes so long.

Where Sony sells chips to everyone else, they get to stay ahead of the curve.

Click to expand...

BSI sensors don't require new litho machines. On-chip ADC doesn't require new litho machines. I even doubt the rumored 60-80 MPix sensor doesn't even require new litho machines as it is the same density as their current APS-C sensors.

The good thing about this rumored high-MP canon EOS-R is that they cannot re-use the 5Ds sensor as that doesn't have DPAF. So they have to design something new. Hopefully it's something really new, and not just an upscaled APS-C sensor from their 80D.

Click to expand...

Canon has neglected research in sensor technology. There was a statement last year (I forgot where I read it) from Canon designers in an interview where they stated this. There is a good chance there will be an all-new sensor for the rumored high-res RS.

Click to expand...

no they haven't.

Canon up there as the top 3 patent holders for sensor technology.

I'd like to see where you read that.

Click to expand...

A patent is an idea. The majority of patents never make it into products. Counting the number of patents as an evidence of how innovative a company is, that is a common mis-concept. What we see as actual products - and not as patents -- is the indication of how much real research has been done.

Click to expand...

a patent must have backing research, which certainly means that canon is spending both research and patent legal dollars on the very subject we're talking about.

Which goes counter to your "Canon has neglected research in sensor technology" definite statement as if it's fact.

Products are most certainly not an indicator of how much research they have done. Many ideas never materialize for countless of reasons, but many are stepping stones to the final products.

and items such as lenses and cameras, it's impossible to count on how many patents were applied during the creation.

Click to expand...

Again, a patent is an idea. Everbody who has an idea can file a patent. It can be a private person without any research. In fact, most patents are so abstract that they dont work in reality and therefore never a product comes out. This is a general statement and not related to Canon.

Canon: If they had better sensor technology, then tey would sell it as a product and not hold it back. I am sure they have sth in developement we will see next year. But Sony is curently ahead.

joenj said:

rrc1967 said:

joenj said:

rrc1967 said:

joenj said:

zonoskar said:

73Instamatic said:

mermaidkiller said:

73Instamatic said:

Nikon is using Sony's sensors. So could Canon, if they wanted to. That includes both options: 1) Design the sensor themselves, but subcontract Sony to fab it, or 2) Buy one of the sensors Sony already sells to whomever wants them.

The problem is that Canon wants to manufacture their own sensors. Here are the reasons:

Click to expand...

They already do it, not for their DSLRs but Powershots, the G7XIII and G5XII use presumably Sony RX100M4 sensors which are not the newest.

It is their good right, but why not a new design ? Even, as I said before, the R and RP use older design sensors. What some say in this topic, these cameras are not cutting edge technology.

I am a Canon user since 1986 when I bought the T90 which was more cutting edge for that era than the R(P) now. Much easier user interface with a wheel (which many cameras have now) and no clunky mode dial on top (still present on modern cameras in 2020).

I still have the 6D (first edition), considered an upgrade to the R(P), but for me it is, despite better AF and tilt screen, not innovative enough.

Canon should upgrade the R(P) with an EOS R Mk2 within two years with a real innovative sensor and more builtin computational photography and regular firmware updates.
Otherwise Sony will blow it away with the A7S4, a cheaper cousin of the A7R4 probably released soon.

Click to expand...

Because part of making your own chips is owning and operating your own Fabs.

And you can't produce new sensors that have BSI or stacked memory without upgrading the fab first.

Those 2 things (and others as well) are not just a "design". They require new updated equipment to manufacture.

Plus it actually gets worse. Goto the link that I posted about Canon's lithography equipment. If Canon has to use their own fab equipment in their own fab, then in some cases they have to upgrade that equipment first.... then the fab facility they use to make their own chips .... then their sensors ... and finally the cameras that use them.

THAT is the reason it takes so long.

Where Sony sells chips to everyone else, they get to stay ahead of the curve.

Click to expand...

BSI sensors don't require new litho machines. On-chip ADC doesn't require new litho machines. I even doubt the rumored 60-80 MPix sensor doesn't even require new litho machines as it is the same density as their current APS-C sensors.

The good thing about this rumored high-MP canon EOS-R is that they cannot re-use the 5Ds sensor as that doesn't have DPAF. So they have to design something new. Hopefully it's something really new, and not just an upscaled APS-C sensor from their 80D.

Click to expand...

Canon has neglected research in sensor technology. There was a statement last year (I forgot where I read it) from Canon designers in an interview where they stated this. There is a good chance there will be an all-new sensor for the rumored high-res RS.

Click to expand...

no they haven't.

Canon up there as the top 3 patent holders for sensor technology.

I'd like to see where you read that.

Click to expand...

A patent is an idea. The majority of patents never make it into products. Counting the number of patents as an evidence of how innovative a company is, that is a common mis-concept. What we see as actual products - and not as patents -- is the indication of how much real research has been done.

Click to expand...

a patent must have backing research, which certainly means that canon is spending both research and patent legal dollars on the very subject we're talking about.

Which goes counter to your "Canon has neglected research in sensor technology" definite statement as if it's fact.

Products are most certainly not an indicator of how much research they have done. Many ideas never materialize for countless of reasons, but many are stepping stones to the final products.

and items such as lenses and cameras, it's impossible to count on how many patents were applied during the creation.

Click to expand...

Again, a patent is an idea. Everbody who has an idea can file a patent. It can be a private person without any research. In fact, most patents are so abstract that they dont work in reality and therefore never a product comes out. This is a general statement and not related to Canon.

Canon: If they had better sensor technology, then tey would sell it as a product and not hold it back. I am sure they have sth in developement we will see next year. But Sony is curently ahead.

Click to expand...

Certain technologies may require new plant or fabrication to enable the technology to be brought to market. Often the technology itself is the easy (well easier) part.

DuxX said:

Sony is nice system but compared to Canon has more disadvantages.

Sensor technology... okay Sony is better according to specs and DR but that difference falls in water in my case because Canon has much better (nicer) color output. No, it is not easy to tweak that every time in RAW conversion system. Everything usual you can do with Sony file you can do the same with Canon's file too. So, what's the problem?? Well if you need to raise exposure for 5 steps in PP then - what a hell are you doing with that camera dude?? Do you know how to properly expose and meter?? In some circumstances you will have slightly more noise in high ISO images, really no big deal. BUT consistent output quality and color accuracy is something much more hard to achieve.
I am professional photographer and retoucher and I have worked two and half years with Nikon and tested many Sony cameras and I can tell you one thing for sure - Currently I wouldn't work with any of them.

Canon white balance, metering and color output is way more consistent and reliable. In many cases with Sony or Nikon you will get great photo and nice colors but in other situations you will have disaster especially in harder lighting situations. If you work with small amount of photos with extra time spent you can fix all that issues pretty well but if you work with large amount of files then you are in serious problem since that issues can't be fixed easy as many people say.

Second, mount... RF mount is much more advanced than Sony. RF optics is superb in every aspect. Soon will come f2.8 and f4 RF lenses in much smaller package and superb optical performances.

EF lenses... All canon EF lens 100% working on RF mount which means you have biggest collection of world best lenses at your hand. You can pick whatever you want without fear will that lens work well on my RF mount body.

So, this issues can't be solved with one new camera body. There is a lot of job for Sony to make their system really competitive with Canon and... Canon is just started.

Regards

Click to expand...

I agree with the lenses, but when I shoot landscapes it's not unusual for me to push the shadows 3-4 stops. That's not a matter of improper exposure; camera sensors just don't capture high contrast scenes the way the human eye sees them, and compressing the dynamic range of a scene is the only way to reconcile that.

I've also heard the EOS R has some exposure inconsistencies. I've been shooting Sony for 7 years now and have never encountered exposure issues that weren't user error.

Overall though I agree; Sony FE has been around for nearly 6 years and still has some strange gaps and unresolved issues. A lot of the tech is just for tech's sake and isn't even fully utilized by many of its biggest advocates. People pooh pooh Canon for not having 4K, but don't shoot ANY video. Or the lack of IBIS, but mainly shoot on tripods or in bright light. Etc. The ergonomic foibles and expensive + spotty lens lineup still remain.

lawny13 said:

Kaso said:

Sony has been taking the lead for many years now. Earlier complaints about Sony lack of performance and lack of lenses and the likes apply to Canon's R and RP and RF lenses at this time.

Click to expand...

With the holy trinity due in soon, I wouldn't say that you claim of the lack of lenses is as founded as you claim, especially with native functionality lens adaptation (at least on the canon side). It has only been 9 months. A full lens line up in less than a year is completely unrealistic expectation, no matter how you might frame up.

Click to expand...

Holy trinity is only 3 lenses... very relevant to you, but not necessarily everybody. RF already has the 2 lenses I need (24-105 and 35 1.8)... everything else is gravy

lawny13 said:

Point 2.) is about the pros that are still on canon and that will likely remain. These people are the MOST important to camera manufacturers, as the market shrinks it is the pros that you want to keep. These people tend to be on 1-2 generation old models, and have a large and expensive lens collection, and due to the fact that they work day in and day out with their systems they have a tendency of being less prone to being as WOW regarding features on new systems since their own methods and techniques have proven to be robust and true for themselves. High pressure situations, a pro photog may be less likely to risk deviating from their own established process.
Knowing this, is likely why canon has formed the strategy it has regarding the RF mount. Hit is with an acceptable pro lens line up before a pro body. If we had a pro body, most then likely no pros would have switched over, because the holy f2.8 trinity is missing.
So as the rumor goes, the f2.8 trinity is due in the next month or two, with the pro body accelerated to be anounced in the first half of 2020. If that does happen, then they are pretty much on track as far as I am concerned.

Click to expand...

I think the importance of pros is overrated. As you said, they already have tons of gear. Many are fine to use said gear until it is ground into dust, or client requirements change. So in the context of selling gear they are not a lucrative market. They give the brand credibility and to a degree help push development but don't drive the business. If they did we would have seen the pro gear come first with the consumer stuff following, rather than the other way around.

It's us... the enthusiasts who either geek out over the latest and greatest, or foolishly believe that having the latest and greatest is the only way to improve our photography... that are keeping the camera industry alive. We are far more numerous and willing to buy gear we really don't need. For example- not to pick on you- but you seem very excited about the RF 2.8 trinity. While I'm sure they will be improvements, and the HFD is nice, will they really be worth the four figure premium over EF L glass (or prob double that for 3rd party stuff)? IMO probably not, especially if you already have the EF trinity. So the survival of the camera biz hinges on the continued irrationality of enthusiasts moer than anything.

sportyaccordy said:

lawny13 said:

Kaso said:

Sony has been taking the lead for many years now. Earlier complaints about Sony lack of performance and lack of lenses and the likes apply to Canon's R and RP and RF lenses at this time.

Click to expand...

With the holy trinity due in soon, I wouldn't say that you claim of the lack of lenses is as founded as you claim, especially with native functionality lens adaptation (at least on the canon side). It has only been 9 months. A full lens line up in less than a year is completely unrealistic expectation, no matter how you might frame up.

Click to expand...

Holy trinity is only 3 lenses... very relevant to you, but not necessarily everybody. RF already has the 2 lenses I need (24-105 and 35 1.8)... everything else is gravy

sportyaccordy said:

Point 2.) is about the pros that are still on canon and that will likely remain. These people are the MOST important to camera manufacturers, as the market shrinks it is the pros that you want to keep. These people tend to be on 1-2 generation old models, and have a large and expensive lens collection, and due to the fact that they work day in and day out with their systems they have a tendency of being less prone to being as WOW regarding features on new systems since their own methods and techniques have proven to be robust and true for themselves. High pressure situations, a pro photog may be less likely to risk deviating from their own established process.
Knowing this, is likely why canon has formed the strategy it has regarding the RF mount. Hit is with an acceptable pro lens line up before a pro body. If we had a pro body, most then likely no pros would have switched over, because the holy f2.8 trinity is missing.
So as the rumor goes, the f2.8 trinity is due in the next month or two, with the pro body accelerated to be anounced in the first half of 2020. If that does happen, then they are pretty much on track as far as I am concerned.

Click to expand...

I think the importance of pros is overrated. As you said, they already have tons of gear. Many are fine to use said gear until it is ground into dust, or client requirements change. So in the context of selling gear they are not a lucrative market. They give the brand credibility and to a degree help push development but don't drive the business. If they did we would have seen the pro gear come first with the consumer stuff following, rather than the other way around.

It's us... the enthusiasts who either geek out over the latest and greatest, or foolishly believe that having the latest and greatest is the only way to improve our photography... that are keeping the camera industry alive. We are far more numerous and willing to buy gear we really don't need. For example- not to pick on you- but you seem very excited about the RF 2.8 trinity. While I'm sure they will be improvements, and the HFD is nice, will they really be worth the four figure premium over EF L glass (or prob double that for 3rd party stuff)? IMO probably not, especially if you already have the EF trinity. So the survival of the camera biz hinges on the continued irrationality of enthusiasts moer than anything.

Click to expand...

You're largely right. The Pro market has marketing value as 'halo' users that traditional used to drive amateur sales but it is a small market at only about 5% of the total ILC market. There is also some concern that as 'photography' with standalone cameras falls out of fashion, the Pro market may no longer motivate consumers in the way they used to. Unfortunately many younger users regard many Pro photographers with some ambivalence even if they notice them at all. Certainly they don't relate to may of them so as influencers maybe the day of the Pro as a marketing tool is past.

"It's us... the enthusiasts who either geek out over the latest and greatest .............. that are keeping the camera industry alive" - the trouble is this enthusiast market is shrinking too. Mainly through natural attrition due to age because younger users are no longer coming on board to fill the pipeline. Unfortunately when you have a market that consists of predominantly middle aged, or elderly, geeks it is not a very appealing image to attract younger users and so our particular demographic profile becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.

A few bodies and lenses that cause our demographic to dribble through our dentures with excitement is not going to resolve this. That is the problem the camera manufacturers face, not any technological issue.

I think there is still a lot of interest in real cameras with young folks. I am in my mid 30s as are a bunch of my friends with healthy camera kits. Likewise on IG there are popular hashtags and pages of people literally posting photos of their gear. Not photos taken with their gear- photos of the gear itself. I doubt they are octogenarians.

Just as the old folks today lusted over gear so do we. Plus, for better or worse, a lot of young dudes use photography as an easy way to meet beautiful women :-D That will also never change

The problem, oddly, is cameras are so good, it's hard to justify an upgrade. This is why some of the rationalizations for getting the latest and greatest often sound completely insane. There is nothing essential or necessary in an A7R4- it's a phenomenal camera, but I would hope one could take decent photos with something less bleeding edge.

sportyaccordy said:

I think there is still a lot of interest in real cameras with young folks.

Click to expand...

Not enough young people like you unfortunately.

sportyaccordy said:

I am in my mid 30s as are a bunch of my friends with healthy camera kits. Likewise on IG there are popular hashtags and pages of people literally posting photos of their gear. Not photos taken with their gear- photos of the gear itself. I doubt they are octogenarians.

Just as the old folks today lusted over gear so do we. Plus, for better or worse, a lot of young dudes use photography as an easy way to meet beautiful women :-D That will also never change

The problem, oddly, is cameras are so good, it's hard to justify an upgrade. This is why some of the rationalizations for getting the latest and greatest often sound completely insane. There is nothing essential or necessary in an A7R4- it's a phenomenal camera, but I would hope one could take decent photos with something less bleeding edge.

Click to expand...

It's a shrinking market that even notices the upgrades and even fewer that are prepared to pay for them.

robblackett said:

joenj said:

rrc1967 said:

joenj said:

rrc1967 said:

joenj said:

zonoskar said:

73Instamatic said:

mermaidkiller said:

73Instamatic said:

Nikon is using Sony's sensors. So could Canon, if they wanted to. That includes both options: 1) Design the sensor themselves, but subcontract Sony to fab it, or 2) Buy one of the sensors Sony already sells to whomever wants them.

The problem is that Canon wants to manufacture their own sensors. Here are the reasons:

Click to expand...

They already do it, not for their DSLRs but Powershots, the G7XIII and G5XII use presumably Sony RX100M4 sensors which are not the newest.

It is their good right, but why not a new design ? Even, as I said before, the R and RP use older design sensors. What some say in this topic, these cameras are not cutting edge technology.

I am a Canon user since 1986 when I bought the T90 which was more cutting edge for that era than the R(P) now. Much easier user interface with a wheel (which many cameras have now) and no clunky mode dial on top (still present on modern cameras in 2020).

I still have the 6D (first edition), considered an upgrade to the R(P), but for me it is, despite better AF and tilt screen, not innovative enough.

Canon should upgrade the R(P) with an EOS R Mk2 within two years with a real innovative sensor and more builtin computational photography and regular firmware updates.
Otherwise Sony will blow it away with the A7S4, a cheaper cousin of the A7R4 probably released soon.

Click to expand...

Because part of making your own chips is owning and operating your own Fabs.

And you can't produce new sensors that have BSI or stacked memory without upgrading the fab first.

Those 2 things (and others as well) are not just a "design". They require new updated equipment to manufacture.

Plus it actually gets worse. Goto the link that I posted about Canon's lithography equipment. If Canon has to use their own fab equipment in their own fab, then in some cases they have to upgrade that equipment first.... then the fab facility they use to make their own chips .... then their sensors ... and finally the cameras that use them.

THAT is the reason it takes so long.

Where Sony sells chips to everyone else, they get to stay ahead of the curve.

Click to expand...

BSI sensors don't require new litho machines. On-chip ADC doesn't require new litho machines. I even doubt the rumored 60-80 MPix sensor doesn't even require new litho machines as it is the same density as their current APS-C sensors.

The good thing about this rumored high-MP canon EOS-R is that they cannot re-use the 5Ds sensor as that doesn't have DPAF. So they have to design something new. Hopefully it's something really new, and not just an upscaled APS-C sensor from their 80D.

Click to expand...

Canon has neglected research in sensor technology. There was a statement last year (I forgot where I read it) from Canon designers in an interview where they stated this. There is a good chance there will be an all-new sensor for the rumored high-res RS.

Click to expand...

no they haven't.

Canon up there as the top 3 patent holders for sensor technology.

I'd like to see where you read that.

Click to expand...

A patent is an idea. The majority of patents never make it into products. Counting the number of patents as an evidence of how innovative a company is, that is a common mis-concept. What we see as actual products - and not as patents -- is the indication of how much real research has been done.

Click to expand...

a patent must have backing research, which certainly means that canon is spending both research and patent legal dollars on the very subject we're talking about.

Which goes counter to your "Canon has neglected research in sensor technology" definite statement as if it's fact.

Products are most certainly not an indicator of how much research they have done. Many ideas never materialize for countless of reasons, but many are stepping stones to the final products.

and items such as lenses and cameras, it's impossible to count on how many patents were applied during the creation.

Click to expand...

Again, a patent is an idea. Everbody who has an idea can file a patent. It can be a private person without any research. In fact, most patents are so abstract that they dont work in reality and therefore never a product comes out. This is a general statement and not related to Canon.

Canon: If they had better sensor technology, then tey would sell it as a product and not hold it back. I am sure they have sth in developement we will see next year. But Sony is curently ahead.

Click to expand...

Certain technologies may require new plant or fabrication to enable the technology to be brought to market. Often the technology itself is the easy (well easier) part.

Click to expand...

The technology nodes for sensor chips is far less demanding than for memory chips. There is certainly no new fab needed for a sensor chip.

joenj said:

rrc1967 said:

joenj said:

rrc1967 said:

joenj said:

zonoskar said:

73Instamatic said:

mermaidkiller said:

73Instamatic said:

Nikon is using Sony's sensors. So could Canon, if they wanted to. That includes both options: 1) Design the sensor themselves, but subcontract Sony to fab it, or 2) Buy one of the sensors Sony already sells to whomever wants them.

The problem is that Canon wants to manufacture their own sensors. Here are the reasons:

Click to expand...

They already do it, not for their DSLRs but Powershots, the G7XIII and G5XII use presumably Sony RX100M4 sensors which are not the newest.

It is their good right, but why not a new design ? Even, as I said before, the R and RP use older design sensors. What some say in this topic, these cameras are not cutting edge technology.

I am a Canon user since 1986 when I bought the T90 which was more cutting edge for that era than the R(P) now. Much easier user interface with a wheel (which many cameras have now) and no clunky mode dial on top (still present on modern cameras in 2020).

I still have the 6D (first edition), considered an upgrade to the R(P), but for me it is, despite better AF and tilt screen, not innovative enough.

Canon should upgrade the R(P) with an EOS R Mk2 within two years with a real innovative sensor and more builtin computational photography and regular firmware updates.
Otherwise Sony will blow it away with the A7S4, a cheaper cousin of the A7R4 probably released soon.

Click to expand...

Because part of making your own chips is owning and operating your own Fabs.

And you can't produce new sensors that have BSI or stacked memory without upgrading the fab first.

Those 2 things (and others as well) are not just a "design". They require new updated equipment to manufacture.

Plus it actually gets worse. Goto the link that I posted about Canon's lithography equipment. If Canon has to use their own fab equipment in their own fab, then in some cases they have to upgrade that equipment first.... then the fab facility they use to make their own chips .... then their sensors ... and finally the cameras that use them.

THAT is the reason it takes so long.

Where Sony sells chips to everyone else, they get to stay ahead of the curve.

Click to expand...

BSI sensors don't require new litho machines. On-chip ADC doesn't require new litho machines. I even doubt the rumored 60-80 MPix sensor doesn't even require new litho machines as it is the same density as their current APS-C sensors.

The good thing about this rumored high-MP canon EOS-R is that they cannot re-use the 5Ds sensor as that doesn't have DPAF. So they have to design something new. Hopefully it's something really new, and not just an upscaled APS-C sensor from their 80D.

Click to expand...

Canon has neglected research in sensor technology. There was a statement last year (I forgot where I read it) from Canon designers in an interview where they stated this. There is a good chance there will be an all-new sensor for the rumored high-res RS.

Click to expand...

no they haven't.

Canon up there as the top 3 patent holders for sensor technology.

I'd like to see where you read that.

Click to expand...

A patent is an idea. The majority of patents never make it into products. Counting the number of patents as an evidence of how innovative a company is, that is a common mis-concept. What we see as actual products - and not as patents -- is the indication of how much real research has been done.

Click to expand...

a patent must have backing research, which certainly means that canon is spending both research and patent legal dollars on the very subject we're talking about.

Which goes counter to your "Canon has neglected research in sensor technology" definite statement as if it's fact.

Products are most certainly not an indicator of how much research they have done. Many ideas never materialize for countless of reasons, but many are stepping stones to the final products.

and items such as lenses and cameras, it's impossible to count on how many patents were applied during the creation.

Click to expand...

Again, a patent is an idea. Everbody who has an idea can file a patent. It can be a private person without any research.

Click to expand...

You are quibbling. You can't have one without the other. Research is coming up with ideas and then there is developing them - that's why it's called R&D - Research and Development. Obviously, you've never seen any of Canon's sensor patents. they aren't just fluff ideas they are highly specific and developed patents that do require actual research.

You are just going on to try to protect an indefensible position that canon apparently has neglected research. They haven't, or find the source.

robblackett said:

joenj said:

rrc1967 said:

joenj said:

rrc1967 said:

joenj said:

zonoskar said:

73Instamatic said:

mermaidkiller said:

73Instamatic said:

Nikon is using Sony's sensors. So could Canon, if they wanted to. That includes both options: 1) Design the sensor themselves, but subcontract Sony to fab it, or 2) Buy one of the sensors Sony already sells to whomever wants them.

The problem is that Canon wants to manufacture their own sensors. Here are the reasons:

Click to expand...

They already do it, not for their DSLRs but Powershots, the G7XIII and G5XII use presumably Sony RX100M4 sensors which are not the newest.

It is their good right, but why not a new design ? Even, as I said before, the R and RP use older design sensors. What some say in this topic, these cameras are not cutting edge technology.

I am a Canon user since 1986 when I bought the T90 which was more cutting edge for that era than the R(P) now. Much easier user interface with a wheel (which many cameras have now) and no clunky mode dial on top (still present on modern cameras in 2020).

I still have the 6D (first edition), considered an upgrade to the R(P), but for me it is, despite better AF and tilt screen, not innovative enough.

Canon should upgrade the R(P) with an EOS R Mk2 within two years with a real innovative sensor and more builtin computational photography and regular firmware updates.
Otherwise Sony will blow it away with the A7S4, a cheaper cousin of the A7R4 probably released soon.

Click to expand...

Because part of making your own chips is owning and operating your own Fabs.

And you can't produce new sensors that have BSI or stacked memory without upgrading the fab first.

Those 2 things (and others as well) are not just a "design". They require new updated equipment to manufacture.

Plus it actually gets worse. Goto the link that I posted about Canon's lithography equipment. If Canon has to use their own fab equipment in their own fab, then in some cases they have to upgrade that equipment first.... then the fab facility they use to make their own chips .... then their sensors ... and finally the cameras that use them.

THAT is the reason it takes so long.

Where Sony sells chips to everyone else, they get to stay ahead of the curve.

Click to expand...

BSI sensors don't require new litho machines. On-chip ADC doesn't require new litho machines. I even doubt the rumored 60-80 MPix sensor doesn't even require new litho machines as it is the same density as their current APS-C sensors.

The good thing about this rumored high-MP canon EOS-R is that they cannot re-use the 5Ds sensor as that doesn't have DPAF. So they have to design something new. Hopefully it's something really new, and not just an upscaled APS-C sensor from their 80D.

Click to expand...

Canon has neglected research in sensor technology. There was a statement last year (I forgot where I read it) from Canon designers in an interview where they stated this. There is a good chance there will be an all-new sensor for the rumored high-res RS.

Click to expand...

no they haven't.

Canon up there as the top 3 patent holders for sensor technology.

I'd like to see where you read that.

Click to expand...

A patent is an idea. The majority of patents never make it into products. Counting the number of patents as an evidence of how innovative a company is, that is a common mis-concept. What we see as actual products - and not as patents -- is the indication of how much real research has been done.

Click to expand...

a patent must have backing research, which certainly means that canon is spending both research and patent legal dollars on the very subject we're talking about.

Which goes counter to your "Canon has neglected research in sensor technology" definite statement as if it's fact.

Products are most certainly not an indicator of how much research they have done. Many ideas never materialize for countless of reasons, but many are stepping stones to the final products.

and items such as lenses and cameras, it's impossible to count on how many patents were applied during the creation.

Click to expand...

Again, a patent is an idea. Everbody who has an idea can file a patent. It can be a private person without any research. In fact, most patents are so abstract that they dont work in reality and therefore never a product comes out. This is a general statement and not related to Canon.

Canon: If they had better sensor technology, then tey would sell it as a product and not hold it back. I am sure they have sth in developement we will see next year. But Sony is curently ahead.

Click to expand...

Certain technologies may require new plant or fabrication to enable the technology to be brought to market. Often the technology itself is the easy (well easier) part.

Click to expand...

new plants not really. new equipment .. yes possibly. however that's fairly easily obtained. Canon for instance, upgraded it's fabrication for full frame sensors sometime before the 1DX Mark II came out - as an example.

joenj said:

The technology nodes for sensor chips is far less demanding than for memory chips. There is certainly no new fab needed for a sensor chip.

Click to expand...

Is it really necessary to rehash ten posts that preceded yours?

joenj said:

rrc1967 said:

joenj said:

rrc1967 said:

joenj said:

zonoskar said:

73Instamatic said:

mermaidkiller said:

73Instamatic said:

Nikon is using Sony's sensors. So could Canon, if they wanted to. That includes both options: 1) Design the sensor themselves, but subcontract Sony to fab it, or 2) Buy one of the sensors Sony already sells to whomever wants them.

The problem is that Canon wants to manufacture their own sensors. Here are the reasons:

Click to expand...

They already do it, not for their DSLRs but Powershots, the G7XIII and G5XII use presumably Sony RX100M4 sensors which are not the newest.

It is their good right, but why not a new design ? Even, as I said before, the R and RP use older design sensors. What some say in this topic, these cameras are not cutting edge technology.

I am a Canon user since 1986 when I bought the T90 which was more cutting edge for that era than the R(P) now. Much easier user interface with a wheel (which many cameras have now) and no clunky mode dial on top (still present on modern cameras in 2020).

I still have the 6D (first edition), considered an upgrade to the R(P), but for me it is, despite better AF and tilt screen, not innovative enough.

Canon should upgrade the R(P) with an EOS R Mk2 within two years with a real innovative sensor and more builtin computational photography and regular firmware updates.
Otherwise Sony will blow it away with the A7S4, a cheaper cousin of the A7R4 probably released soon.

Click to expand...

Because part of making your own chips is owning and operating your own Fabs.

And you can't produce new sensors that have BSI or stacked memory without upgrading the fab first.

Those 2 things (and others as well) are not just a "design". They require new updated equipment to manufacture.

Plus it actually gets worse. Goto the link that I posted about Canon's lithography equipment. If Canon has to use their own fab equipment in their own fab, then in some cases they have to upgrade that equipment first.... then the fab facility they use to make their own chips .... then their sensors ... and finally the cameras that use them.

THAT is the reason it takes so long.

Where Sony sells chips to everyone else, they get to stay ahead of the curve.

Click to expand...

BSI sensors don't require new litho machines. On-chip ADC doesn't require new litho machines. I even doubt the rumored 60-80 MPix sensor doesn't even require new litho machines as it is the same density as their current APS-C sensors.

The good thing about this rumored high-MP canon EOS-R is that they cannot re-use the 5Ds sensor as that doesn't have DPAF. So they have to design something new. Hopefully it's something really new, and not just an upscaled APS-C sensor from their 80D.

Click to expand...

Canon has neglected research in sensor technology. There was a statement last year (I forgot where I read it) from Canon designers in an interview where they stated this. There is a good chance there will be an all-new sensor for the rumored high-res RS.

Click to expand...

no they haven't.

Canon up there as the top 3 patent holders for sensor technology.

I'd like to see where you read that.

Click to expand...

A patent is an idea. The majority of patents never make it into products. Counting the number of patents as an evidence of how innovative a company is, that is a common mis-concept. What we see as actual products - and not as patents -- is the indication of how much real research has been done.

Click to expand...

a patent must have backing research, which certainly means that canon is spending both research and patent legal dollars on the very subject we're talking about.

Which goes counter to your "Canon has neglected research in sensor technology" definite statement as if it's fact.

Products are most certainly not an indicator of how much research they have done. Many ideas never materialize for countless of reasons, but many are stepping stones to the final products.

and items such as lenses and cameras, it's impossible to count on how many patents were applied during the creation.

Click to expand...

Again, a patent is an idea. Everbody who has an idea can file a patent. It can be a private person without any research. In fact, most patents are so abstract that they dont work in reality and therefore never a product comes out. This is a general statement and not related to Canon.

Canon: If they had better sensor technology, then tey would sell it as a product and not hold it back. I am sure they have sth in developement we will see next year. But Sony is curently ahead.

Click to expand...

The reason large technical companies encourage patents is to have patents. The patents are an end in themselves. If you have a huge portfolio, you can go to your competitor and extort money in the form of cross licensing agreements using your huge patent portfolio as leverage.

sportyaccordy said:

I agree with the lenses, but when I shoot landscapes it's not unusual for me to push the shadows 3-4 stops.

Click to expand...

That's not problem for any new Canon or any other sensor. But if you need to push 5 steps that could be a problem. In situations where you need to push that much it is much better to use some advanced techniques like exposure blending. Exposure blending will always give you professional high quality results and 5 step pushing will give you hdr-ish look with pretty limited file for further post processing. That just isn't way to go if you want to achieve professional landscape quality.

If you push shadows to maximum with any sensor you will destroy natural tonality, light fidelity and color accuracy. More or less noise is much smaller problem.

sportyaccordy said:

I've also heard the EOS R has some exposure inconsistencies.

Click to expand...

Yes if you shoot with Sigma lenses. Sigma Art lens are not yet capable to work well with EOS R and all Art lenses will give you inconsistent exposure. On the other side, using R with EF or RF optics is pure pleasure. EF 135L gives me better metering and even more consistent exposure than 5DIV. Till now I have made about 10 professional shootings with EOS R with models in different situations without any issues. This camera is way better than 5D4.

For example... one of my newest shooting I've made in greenhouse. Thanks to R and flipping screen I was able to make some very interesting shots. I hold camera with hand and push it into leaves. Face/eye tracking system did the job perfectly. I've made 28 photos in burst and only two of them were not in focus probably my fault because I lost whole face from the screen.



Down here is one part of the batch screened from LR.



AF worked perfectly even on photos where 80% of face is covered with leaves. That's fantastic results. Used lens for these photos RF 35mm 1.8

sportyaccordy said:

Overall though I agree; Sony FE has been around for nearly 6 years and still has some strange gaps and unresolved issues.

Click to expand...

That's true and Sony will need more 5 to 6 years to solve majority of problems to become a very serious pretender to the professional market segment. I would like to have this happen before because things will become much more interesting, but I'm not optimistic about that.

Again, I'm not saying anything bad about Sony. Just for my opinion if we talking about professional photography segment, Sony isn't there yet. That would be also my answer to this thread

Regards

--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Dusko Jovic / DuxX /

DuxX said:

sportyaccordy said:

I agree with the lenses, but when I shoot landscapes it's not unusual for me to push the shadows 3-4 stops.

Click to expand...

That's not problem for any new Canon or any other sensor. But if you need to push 5 steps that could be a problem. In situations where you need to push that much it is much better to use some advanced techniques like exposure blending. Exposure blending will always give you professional high quality results and 5 step pushing will give you hdr-ish look with pretty limited file for further post processing. That just isn't way to go if you want to achieve professional landscape quality.

If you push shadows to maximum with any sensor you will destroy natural tonality, light fidelity and color accuracy. More or less noise is much smaller problem.

DuxX said:

I've also heard the EOS R has some exposure inconsistencies.

Click to expand...

Yes if you shoot with Sigma lenses. Sigma Art lens are not yet capable to work well with EOS R and all Art lenses will give you inconsistent exposure. On the other side, using R with EF or RF optics is pure pleasure. EF 135L gives me better metering and even more consistent exposure than 5DIV. Till now I have made about 10 professional shootings with EOS R with models in different situations without any issues. This camera is way better than 5D4.

For example... one of my newest shooting I've made in greenhouse. Thanks to R and flipping screen I was able to make some very interesting shots. I hold camera with hand and push it into leaves. Face/eye tracking system did the job perfectly. I've made 28 photos in burst and only two of them were not in focus probably my fault because I lost whole face from the screen.



Down here is one part of the batch screened from LR.



AF worked perfectly even on photos where 80% of face is covered with leaves. That's fantastic results. Used lens for these photos RF 35mm 1.8

DuxX said:

Overall though I agree; Sony FE has been around for nearly 6 years and still has some strange gaps and unresolved issues.

Click to expand...

That's true and Sony will need more 5 to 6 years to solve majority of problems to become a very serious pretender to the professional market segment. I would like to have this happen before because things will become much more interesting, but I'm not optimistic about that.

Click to expand...

just curious and i only want to learn here but what “majority of problems” are you referring to with the Sony system besides inconsistent exposure with Sigma lenses and the “unpleasant” IQ output that some talk about?

DuxX said:

Again, I'm not saying anything bad about Sony. Just for my opinion if we talking about professional photography segment, Sony isn't there yet. That would be also my answer to this thread

Regards

--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Dusko Jovic / DuxX /

Click to expand...

rrc1967 said:

joenj said:

rrc1967 said:

joenj said:

rrc1967 said:

joenj said:

zonoskar said:

73Instamatic said:

mermaidkiller said:

73Instamatic said:

Nikon is using Sony's sensors. So could Canon, if they wanted to. That includes both options: 1) Design the sensor themselves, but subcontract Sony to fab it, or 2) Buy one of the sensors Sony already sells to whomever wants them.

The problem is that Canon wants to manufacture their own sensors. Here are the reasons:

Click to expand...

They already do it, not for their DSLRs but Powershots, the G7XIII and G5XII use presumably Sony RX100M4 sensors which are not the newest.

It is their good right, but why not a new design ? Even, as I said before, the R and RP use older design sensors. What some say in this topic, these cameras are not cutting edge technology.

I am a Canon user since 1986 when I bought the T90 which was more cutting edge for that era than the R(P) now. Much easier user interface with a wheel (which many cameras have now) and no clunky mode dial on top (still present on modern cameras in 2020).

I still have the 6D (first edition), considered an upgrade to the R(P), but for me it is, despite better AF and tilt screen, not innovative enough.

Canon should upgrade the R(P) with an EOS R Mk2 within two years with a real innovative sensor and more builtin computational photography and regular firmware updates.
Otherwise Sony will blow it away with the A7S4, a cheaper cousin of the A7R4 probably released soon.

Click to expand...

Because part of making your own chips is owning and operating your own Fabs.

And you can't produce new sensors that have BSI or stacked memory without upgrading the fab first.

Those 2 things (and others as well) are not just a "design". They require new updated equipment to manufacture.

Plus it actually gets worse. Goto the link that I posted about Canon's lithography equipment. If Canon has to use their own fab equipment in their own fab, then in some cases they have to upgrade that equipment first.... then the fab facility they use to make their own chips .... then their sensors ... and finally the cameras that use them.

THAT is the reason it takes so long.

Where Sony sells chips to everyone else, they get to stay ahead of the curve.

Click to expand...

BSI sensors don't require new litho machines. On-chip ADC doesn't require new litho machines. I even doubt the rumored 60-80 MPix sensor doesn't even require new litho machines as it is the same density as their current APS-C sensors.

The good thing about this rumored high-MP canon EOS-R is that they cannot re-use the 5Ds sensor as that doesn't have DPAF. So they have to design something new. Hopefully it's something really new, and not just an upscaled APS-C sensor from their 80D.

Click to expand...

Canon has neglected research in sensor technology. There was a statement last year (I forgot where I read it) from Canon designers in an interview where they stated this. There is a good chance there will be an all-new sensor for the rumored high-res RS.

Click to expand...

no they haven't.

Canon up there as the top 3 patent holders for sensor technology.

I'd like to see where you read that.

Click to expand...

A patent is an idea. The majority of patents never make it into products. Counting the number of patents as an evidence of how innovative a company is, that is a common mis-concept. What we see as actual products - and not as patents -- is the indication of how much real research has been done.

Click to expand...

a patent must have backing research, which certainly means that canon is spending both research and patent legal dollars on the very subject we're talking about.

Which goes counter to your "Canon has neglected research in sensor technology" definite statement as if it's fact.

Products are most certainly not an indicator of how much research they have done. Many ideas never materialize for countless of reasons, but many are stepping stones to the final products.

and items such as lenses and cameras, it's impossible to count on how many patents were applied during the creation.

Click to expand...

Again, a patent is an idea. Everbody who has an idea can file a patent. It can be a private person without any research.

Click to expand...

You are quibbling. You can't have one without the other. Research is coming up with ideas and then there is developing them - that's why it's called R&D - Research and Development. Obviously, you've never seen any of Canon's sensor patents. they aren't just fluff ideas they are highly specific and developed patents that do require actual research.

You are just going on to try to protect an indefensible position that canon apparently has neglected research. They haven't, or find the source.

Click to expand...

Yes, you can: There are famous examples like the one-click purchase from a big online retailer. A very simple idea that does not require any research but certainly is very convenient for customers.
Patents can be anything from basic research that cost decades of R&D money to a simple abstract idea that is technically infeasible.
(and again, I am not implying that Canon is not having great patents in their portfolio)
R&D: That is just a phrase. For some companies that means only D without R. For others it means lots of R.
I am not defending any reservation against Canon because I dont have any. In fact, Canon is an extraordinay innovative company. But their main focus was not on sensor technology in recent years. That is obvious from the current sensor pruducts they sell (lack of high DR etc are all facts that are well quantified). In key technologies it is difficult to catch up once there is a lag. None of us knows what Canon is currently developing. Would be great to see a sensor tech catch-up next year. But it is unlikely they will exceed Sony (unfortunately).