Sony A7R4 threat for Canon (and Nikon) ?

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Nikon is using Sony's sensors. So could Canon, if they wanted to. That includes both options: 1) Design the sensor themselves, but subcontract Sony to fab it, or 2) Buy one of the sensors Sony already sells to whomever wants them.

The problem is that Canon wants to manufacture their own sensors. Here are the reasons:
They already do it, not for their DSLRs but Powershots, the G7XIII and G5XII use presumably Sony RX100M4 sensors which are not the newest.

It is their good right, but why not a new design ? Even, as I said before, the R and RP use older design sensors. What some say in this topic, these cameras are not cutting edge technology.

I am a Canon user since 1986 when I bought the T90 which was more cutting edge for that era than the R(P) now. Much easier user interface with a wheel (which many cameras have now) and no clunky mode dial on top (still present on modern cameras in 2020).

I still have the 6D (first edition), considered an upgrade to the R(P), but for me it is, despite better AF and tilt screen, not innovative enough.

Canon should upgrade the R(P) with an EOS R Mk2 within two years with a real innovative sensor and more builtin computational photography and regular firmware updates.
Otherwise Sony will blow it away with the A7S4, a cheaper cousin of the A7R4 probably released soon.
Because part of making your own chips is owning and operating your own Fabs.

And you can't produce new sensors that have BSI or stacked memory without upgrading the fab first.

Those 2 things (and others as well) are not just a "design". They require new updated equipment to manufacture.

Plus it actually gets worse. Goto the link that I posted about Canon's lithography equipment. If Canon has to use their own fab equipment in their own fab, then in some cases they have to upgrade that equipment first.... then the fab facility they use to make their own chips .... then their sensors ... and finally the cameras that use them.

THAT is the reason it takes so long.

Where Sony sells chips to everyone else, they get to stay ahead of the curve.
BSI sensors don't require new litho machines. On-chip ADC doesn't require new litho machines. I even doubt the rumored 60-80 MPix sensor doesn't even require new litho machines as it is the same density as their current APS-C sensors.

The good thing about this rumored high-MP canon EOS-R is that they cannot re-use the 5Ds sensor as that doesn't have DPAF. So they have to design something new. Hopefully it's something really new, and not just an upscaled APS-C sensor from their 80D.
 
61/240MP are solutions in search of problems. I don't understand why people freak out when competitors make big announcements. And I would hope folks aren't jumping from system to system everytime someone announces a new camera.
Agree. Is something is a threat to Canon, it was the A7III and still is. The A7R4 is good for bragging rights though.
 
Canon isn’t about bleeding edge products, they are about refined and mature products. People buy into Canon because of the design, ergonomics, menu system, lenses, color science etc. I don’t think Canon people just jump ship because Sony has cool specs.
 
Another good camera from Sony if you like what they offer.

The difference with the A7r III in actual use will probably be marginal (same ergonomics, tech and processors), so people who chose Canon instead of Sony 3rd gen. have no reason to change their mind. But more competition is good, it will force Canon to be less conservative with their next iteration :-)
 
This is major sensor technology. If Canon can match this in their next R Camera for <$4000 (including IBIS) they are OK. If not it does look tough.

I see the Canon R ahead in LCD and menu touch screen, body design.
 
I suspect that the biggest threat to Canon is performance of their non-camera divisions. It sounds like they will soon report worse-than-expected financial results in multiple divisions.
 
Anyway, Sony is absolutely king in sensor technology and Canon is way behind,
And yet zillions of professional photographers manage to take great photos with Canon cameras.
Including me and I am happy with it (6D and G7Xii), but I also use a small Sony RX100M6.

In that case, I notice that the RX100M6 has a better sensor than the comparable G7Xii, and in the DSLR world it should not be different (e.g. A7iii vs EOS R or RP) which I don't have.

--
Ricoh KR-5 ... Pentax ME Super ... Canon T90 ... ... ... 40d ... 7d ... 6d
 
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All facts. Sony is the current sensor king by a lot.

and I take great pictures with my Canon EOS R.

But I trust the DR of my Sony A7III more.

All good.
 
I remember associated activity being the downfall of Mamiya. Story that came to me was that trading in leather goods by an arm of the holding company caused a tsunami.

It was such a pity as they were amazing cameras, and the service guys in London were brilliant . Chen had new leaf shutter fitted to a lens and back to me within 24 hours when needed. Everything about the old beasts was fantastic........... until the carpet was pulled.
 
History shows us being King is not always the protected status we presume, Kodak had quite a good wheeze in the sensor line at one stage.

--
Gear ... what I need to get the job done , after all you don't see mechanics listing their brand of spanner as a qualification .
 
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Nikon is using Sony's sensors. So could Canon, if they wanted to. That includes both options: 1) Design the sensor themselves, but subcontract Sony to fab it, or 2) Buy one of the sensors Sony already sells to whomever wants them.

The problem is that Canon wants to manufacture their own sensors. Here are the reasons:
They already do it, not for their DSLRs but Powershots, the G7XIII and G5XII use presumably Sony RX100M4 sensors which are not the newest.

It is their good right, but why not a new design ? Even, as I said before, the R and RP use older design sensors. What some say in this topic, these cameras are not cutting edge technology.

I am a Canon user since 1986 when I bought the T90 which was more cutting edge for that era than the R(P) now. Much easier user interface with a wheel (which many cameras have now) and no clunky mode dial on top (still present on modern cameras in 2020).

I still have the 6D (first edition), considered an upgrade to the R(P), but for me it is, despite better AF and tilt screen, not innovative enough.

Canon should upgrade the R(P) with an EOS R Mk2 within two years with a real innovative sensor and more builtin computational photography and regular firmware updates.
Otherwise Sony will blow it away with the A7S4, a cheaper cousin of the A7R4 probably released soon.
Because part of making your own chips is owning and operating your own Fabs.

And you can't produce new sensors that have BSI or stacked memory without upgrading the fab first.

Those 2 things (and others as well) are not just a "design". They require new updated equipment to manufacture.

Plus it actually gets worse. Goto the link that I posted about Canon's lithography equipment. If Canon has to use their own fab equipment in their own fab, then in some cases they have to upgrade that equipment first.... then the fab facility they use to make their own chips .... then their sensors ... and finally the cameras that use them.

THAT is the reason it takes so long.

Where Sony sells chips to everyone else, they get to stay ahead of the curve.
BSI sensors don't require new litho machines. On-chip ADC doesn't require new litho machines. I even doubt the rumored 60-80 MPix sensor doesn't even require new litho machines as it is the same density as their current APS-C sensors.

The good thing about this rumored high-MP canon EOS-R is that they cannot re-use the 5Ds sensor as that doesn't have DPAF. So they have to design something new. Hopefully it's something really new, and not just an upscaled APS-C sensor from their 80D.
Canon has neglected research in sensor technology. There was a statement last year (I forgot where I read it) from Canon designers in an interview where they stated this. There is a good chance there will be an all-new sensor for the rumored high-res RS.
 
Nikon is using Sony's sensors. So could Canon, if they wanted to. That includes both options: 1) Design the sensor themselves, but subcontract Sony to fab it, or 2) Buy one of the sensors Sony already sells to whomever wants them.

The problem is that Canon wants to manufacture their own sensors. Here are the reasons:
They already do it, not for their DSLRs but Powershots, the G7XIII and G5XII use presumably Sony RX100M4 sensors which are not the newest.

It is their good right, but why not a new design ? Even, as I said before, the R and RP use older design sensors. What some say in this topic, these cameras are not cutting edge technology.

I am a Canon user since 1986 when I bought the T90 which was more cutting edge for that era than the R(P) now. Much easier user interface with a wheel (which many cameras have now) and no clunky mode dial on top (still present on modern cameras in 2020).

I still have the 6D (first edition), considered an upgrade to the R(P), but for me it is, despite better AF and tilt screen, not innovative enough.

Canon should upgrade the R(P) with an EOS R Mk2 within two years with a real innovative sensor and more builtin computational photography and regular firmware updates.
Otherwise Sony will blow it away with the A7S4, a cheaper cousin of the A7R4 probably released soon.
Because part of making your own chips is owning and operating your own Fabs.

And you can't produce new sensors that have BSI or stacked memory without upgrading the fab first.

Those 2 things (and others as well) are not just a "design". They require new updated equipment to manufacture.

Plus it actually gets worse. Goto the link that I posted about Canon's lithography equipment. If Canon has to use their own fab equipment in their own fab, then in some cases they have to upgrade that equipment first.... then the fab facility they use to make their own chips .... then their sensors ... and finally the cameras that use them.

THAT is the reason it takes so long.

Where Sony sells chips to everyone else, they get to stay ahead of the curve.
BSI sensors don't require new litho machines. On-chip ADC doesn't require new litho machines. I even doubt the rumored 60-80 MPix sensor doesn't even require new litho machines as it is the same density as their current APS-C sensors.

The good thing about this rumored high-MP canon EOS-R is that they cannot re-use the 5Ds sensor as that doesn't have DPAF. So they have to design something new. Hopefully it's something really new, and not just an upscaled APS-C sensor from their 80D.
Canon has neglected research in sensor technology. There was a statement last year (I forgot where I read it) from Canon designers in an interview where they stated this. There is a good chance there will be an all-new sensor for the rumored high-res RS.
no they haven't.

Canon up there as the top 3 patent holders for sensor technology.

I'd like to see where you read that.
 
Nikon is using Sony's sensors. So could Canon, if they wanted to. That includes both options: 1) Design the sensor themselves, but subcontract Sony to fab it, or 2) Buy one of the sensors Sony already sells to whomever wants them.

The problem is that Canon wants to manufacture their own sensors. Here are the reasons:
They already do it, not for their DSLRs but Powershots, the G7XIII and G5XII use presumably Sony RX100M4 sensors which are not the newest.

It is their good right, but why not a new design ? Even, as I said before, the R and RP use older design sensors. What some say in this topic, these cameras are not cutting edge technology.

I am a Canon user since 1986 when I bought the T90 which was more cutting edge for that era than the R(P) now. Much easier user interface with a wheel (which many cameras have now) and no clunky mode dial on top (still present on modern cameras in 2020).

I still have the 6D (first edition), considered an upgrade to the R(P), but for me it is, despite better AF and tilt screen, not innovative enough.

Canon should upgrade the R(P) with an EOS R Mk2 within two years with a real innovative sensor and more builtin computational photography and regular firmware updates.
Otherwise Sony will blow it away with the A7S4, a cheaper cousin of the A7R4 probably released soon.
Because part of making your own chips is owning and operating your own Fabs.

And you can't produce new sensors that have BSI or stacked memory without upgrading the fab first.

Those 2 things (and others as well) are not just a "design". They require new updated equipment to manufacture.

Plus it actually gets worse. Goto the link that I posted about Canon's lithography equipment. If Canon has to use their own fab equipment in their own fab, then in some cases they have to upgrade that equipment first.... then the fab facility they use to make their own chips .... then their sensors ... and finally the cameras that use them.

THAT is the reason it takes so long.

Where Sony sells chips to everyone else, they get to stay ahead of the curve.
BSI sensors don't require new litho machines. On-chip ADC doesn't require new litho machines. I even doubt the rumored 60-80 MPix sensor doesn't even require new litho machines as it is the same density as their current APS-C sensors.

The good thing about this rumored high-MP canon EOS-R is that they cannot re-use the 5Ds sensor as that doesn't have DPAF. So they have to design something new. Hopefully it's something really new, and not just an upscaled APS-C sensor from their 80D.
you are correct - in a way. however Canon runs 180nm for APS-C and 300nm currently for full frame. I'm not sure it's a simple matter.

BSI requires technique, and yes, certainly not new equipment. Canon has "technically" all the tools in house already to create a fairly good competing sensor. The problem is, they don't have EXMOR's patent portfolio to do so, and Canon's patent porfolio is certainly large, it does have issues.

Everything proceeds in stages, according to the patents in which Canon is applying for, they all suggest BSI + layers for stacking, which means they have to reliably do BSI sensors before they even contemplate doing a stacked sensor.

It's a matter of time before they get there - the question is can they get there quickly enough?
 
Nikon is using Sony's sensors. So could Canon, if they wanted to. That includes both options: 1) Design the sensor themselves, but subcontract Sony to fab it, or 2) Buy one of the sensors Sony already sells to whomever wants them.

The problem is that Canon wants to manufacture their own sensors. Here are the reasons:
They already do it, not for their DSLRs but Powershots, the G7XIII and G5XII use presumably Sony RX100M4 sensors which are not the newest.

It is their good right, but why not a new design ? Even, as I said before, the R and RP use older design sensors. What some say in this topic, these cameras are not cutting edge technology.

I am a Canon user since 1986 when I bought the T90 which was more cutting edge for that era than the R(P) now. Much easier user interface with a wheel (which many cameras have now) and no clunky mode dial on top (still present on modern cameras in 2020).

I still have the 6D (first edition), considered an upgrade to the R(P), but for me it is, despite better AF and tilt screen, not innovative enough.

Canon should upgrade the R(P) with an EOS R Mk2 within two years with a real innovative sensor and more builtin computational photography and regular firmware updates.
Otherwise Sony will blow it away with the A7S4, a cheaper cousin of the A7R4 probably released soon.
Because part of making your own chips is owning and operating your own Fabs.

And you can't produce new sensors that have BSI or stacked memory without upgrading the fab first.

Those 2 things (and others as well) are not just a "design". They require new updated equipment to manufacture.

Plus it actually gets worse. Goto the link that I posted about Canon's lithography equipment. If Canon has to use their own fab equipment in their own fab, then in some cases they have to upgrade that equipment first.... then the fab facility they use to make their own chips .... then their sensors ... and finally the cameras that use them.

THAT is the reason it takes so long.

Where Sony sells chips to everyone else, they get to stay ahead of the curve.
BSI sensors don't require new litho machines. On-chip ADC doesn't require new litho machines. I even doubt the rumored 60-80 MPix sensor doesn't even require new litho machines as it is the same density as their current APS-C sensors.

The good thing about this rumored high-MP canon EOS-R is that they cannot re-use the 5Ds sensor as that doesn't have DPAF. So they have to design something new. Hopefully it's something really new, and not just an upscaled APS-C sensor from their 80D.
Canon has neglected research in sensor technology. There was a statement last year (I forgot where I read it) from Canon designers in an interview where they stated this. There is a good chance there will be an all-new sensor for the rumored high-res RS.
no they haven't.

Canon up there as the top 3 patent holders for sensor technology.

I'd like to see where you read that.
A patent is an idea. The majority of patents never make it into products. Counting the number of patents as an evidence of how innovative a company is, that is a common mis-concept. What we see as actual products - and not as patents -- is the indication of how much real research has been done.
 
Anyway, Sony is absolutely king in sensor technology and Canon is way behind,
And yet zillions of professional photographers manage to take great photos with Canon cameras.
Can you imagine the photos they would take if they had access to a Canon version of this 7R?
I'm not exactly sure why I am even bothering to respond on this thread, as so much of the undeniable brand boosterism seems so "Junior High" to me. But, not to pick a fight here, but making professional images, in my 40 years of doing so for a vast array of very critical clients, has taught me that the formula that allows for good photography is:

1) 60% contribution comes from how hard you work at it - how much well directed energy you expend on the project, and how well prepared you are for it.

2) 30% contribution from both innate and trained talent or ability

3) 10% contribution from the gear you use, of which about 1/3, at most, of that figure results from which particular camera you are using, as opposed to any other one in the same general class you might have at hand.

Yes, there could be some real exception to my above assessment (sports, requiring very high FPS performance, is one such specialized exception that could differentiate cameras), but I find that the above is generally true. Therefore, I would defy anyone to find a consistent advantage to anyone producing excellent professional work with any particular camera of the same very general class.

A couple of months ago, I shot a very high-end corporate event for 3 days. Another fellow, a very competent photographer, shot the event as well for the same client. He used a Sony A7r3 with a raft of top end Sony glass. I used a Canon 5D4 and EOS R. My pictures looked considerably better than his. Why? Talent? Probably not. Gear? No. It was mostly my willingness to work harder, dragging around a bunch lighting gear and lighting the scenes more effectively. Hard work and practiced foresight was more important. A typical example of the reality of what makes professional work better or not.

If your gear is one sensor generation behind someone else's, it shouldn't matter more than what you had for breakfast that day. Now, if it's four generations behind, well than maybe you can make some case for the real, rather than imagined, effect it might have. Finally, you might say that, while what I say may be true, what if all the other factors are equal, except the camera? To that I simply say that all other things are never equal, because each of us are able to choose to make them whatever way you wish.
 
Unfortunately, I agree. Lots to like about the Sony. I’m pondering selling the eos R and sticking to the 7dii until the next gen canon mirrorless is released.

I really like the eye AF and viewfinder and new Modes and and and, but the focus control and exposure consistency and host of other things really isn’t good enough. Overall, the sensor is adequate and I don’t want more resolution, but I’m always eager for less noise at high iso. Most importantly, I just don’t enjoy the eos R the way I enjoy the 7dii.

Given my lenses, it’s not easy to swap brands... nothing I can genuinely complain about though, this is just for fun.
 
https://www.dpreview.com/news/7747501993/sony-introduces-a7r-iv

Today, Sony announced the new A7R4 with 61MP (why so many, the megapixel race is presumably not over yet ?), but some nice features, like (finally !) 5GHz wifi, very high res 5.76 MP viewfinder (should be about 2000x2880), but also lacking 4K 60fps.

And pixel shift allows making 244MP photos (who needs it ??).

Anyway, Sony is absolutely king in sensor technology and Canon is way behind, such as a 3 year old sensor in the EOS R(P) (from the 2016 5Mk4 and 6Mk2 respectively).

I hope the rumored EOS R Pro (fictional name by me) with 60+MP which would be the successor of the 1DX uses a new sensor, maybe the same as the A7R4 ? Same would apply to the Nikon Z8 and Z9 ? But these are just thoughts.

And Sony is now also threatening the lens king Canon with their new 400mm f/2.8 and 200-600 and some other new lenses rivaling the top end EF and RF lenses.

What are your thoughts ?
When a brand raises the technology contained inside a product, the customer ultimately wins. I seriously believe that if it were not for Sony, Canon and Nikon would be even slower at embracing the mirrorless business model.

So yes, Sony is a threat to all camera brands. Let them continue doing what they are doing, until others step up. I don't need 61mp but I don't mind having it as well. I still don't see myself using a Sony camera in this rendition of the A7R. However, I am not opposed to eventually moving to Sony or Lumix anymore in the next 1-2 year/s.

--
"Photography is therapeutic."
https://500px.com/joshcruzphotos
 
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