EVF "lag" tests REQUIRED in (ML) REVIEWS ???

Tracking faster and more erratic subjects will not change the result I just gave.

I've tracked aerobatic UMX airplanes tightly framed and planes that accelerate faster than cars or trucks. I've tracked helicopters and planes making 15g+ maneuvers.
now your full of it, because i fly as well and the mod cars flog any plane from a standing start.
I have three planes that can reach 60mph in between 1 and 2 seconds from a standing start. One of them is even a float plane.
total garbage.
I have a Pocket Radar I've used to measure this. All three are capable of unlimited vertical and that means they all have thrust-to-weight ratios over 1:1. A 1g acceleration gets you to 60 in 2.75 seconds.

I once saw a plane accelerate to 60 in under 1 second straight up out of a hand. It was an F3E plane (now F5B).

Watch:

These things can go from your hand to 1000 feet in 8 seconds.
 
Tracking faster and more erratic subjects will not change the result I just gave.

I've tracked aerobatic UMX airplanes tightly framed and planes that accelerate faster than cars or trucks. I've tracked helicopters and planes making 15g+ maneuvers.
now your full of it, because i fly as well and the mod cars flog any plane from a standing start.
I have three planes that can reach 60mph in between 1 and 2 seconds from a standing start. One of them is even a float plane.
total garbage.
I have a Pocket Radar I've used to measure this. All three are capable of unlimited vertical and that means they all have thrust-to-weight ratios over 1:1. A 1g acceleration gets you to 60 in 2.75 seconds.

I once saw a plane accelerate to 60 in under 1 second straight up out of a hand. It was an F3E plane (now F5B).

Watch:

These things can go from your hand to 1000 feet in 8 seconds.
he held it in his hand ;-) and let it go at full throttle you may as well use a bungy cord to do that. same as the helicopters they go flat stick and they throw the pitch .with a totally out of control object in the sky.

Don
 
Tracking faster and more erratic subjects will not change the result I just gave.

I've tracked aerobatic UMX airplanes tightly framed and planes that accelerate faster than cars or trucks. I've tracked helicopters and planes making 15g+ maneuvers.
now your full of it, because i fly as well and the mod cars flog any plane from a standing start.
I have three planes that can reach 60mph in between 1 and 2 seconds from a standing start. One of them is even a float plane.
total garbage.
I have a Pocket Radar I've used to measure this. All three are capable of unlimited vertical and that means they all have thrust-to-weight ratios over 1:1. A 1g acceleration gets you to 60 in 2.75 seconds.

I once saw a plane accelerate to 60 in under 1 second straight up out of a hand. It was an F3E plane (now F5B).

Watch:

These things can go from your hand to 1000 feet in 8 seconds.
he held it in his hand ;-) and let it go at full throttle you may as well use a bungy cord to do that.
He threw it and then started the motor.

Even if he had done what you said, the fact that it accelerated to over 100mph in about a second should indicate to you that what I said is not only possible, but common.
same as the helicopters they go flat stick and they throw the pitch .with a totally out of control object in the sky.
No, that's stored energy in the rotational momentum of the rotor system. Neither what I showed you nor what I do myself is anything like that.
 
It's not easy to measure EVF lag.
of coarse it is. just look at the camera recording the screen. this is so basic. LOOK at both screens at the same time.
Right...and you're capable of determining millisecond level timing by eye.
so you seem to think the subject is going to disappear from the evf in that split second ;-)
Yeah, because that's what happens in the real world.

Lag

Lag free

Everything else is the same (same camera, same lens, same focal length,
I'm confused ...

Isn't the point that the video with lag was shot through an EVF, while the lag-free sequence of photos was shot through an OVF?
Yeah, and the lag-free sequence has far superior tracking with the plane virtually dead center the entire time, while the video has the planes all over the frame.
that looked like user error to me.
Well, it was the same user in both cases, as I already told you.

So how come that user was able to track accurately through 10fps blackout but not through EVF lag?
 
off road on carpet = boring, i left our club for that reason (I used to be club champion),off road is dirt and more driver skill. havnt raced for 18 months off road and to much cheating in touring car racing.

Don

--
Olympus EM5mk2 ,EM1mk2
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9412035244
past toys. k100d, k10d,k7,fz5,fz150,500uz,canon G9, Olympus xz1 em5mk1
 
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Tracking faster and more erratic subjects will not change the result I just gave.

I've tracked aerobatic UMX airplanes tightly framed and planes that accelerate faster than cars or trucks. I've tracked helicopters and planes making 15g+ maneuvers.
now your full of it, because i fly as well and the mod cars flog any plane from a standing start.
I have three planes that can reach 60mph in between 1 and 2 seconds from a standing start. One of them is even a float plane.
total garbage.
I have a Pocket Radar I've used to measure this. All three are capable of unlimited vertical and that means they all have thrust-to-weight ratios over 1:1. A 1g acceleration gets you to 60 in 2.75 seconds.

I once saw a plane accelerate to 60 in under 1 second straight up out of a hand. It was an F3E plane (now F5B).

Watch:

These things can go from your hand to 1000 feet in 8 seconds.
he held it in his hand ;-) and let it go at full throttle you may as well use a bungy cord to do that.
He threw it and then started the motor.

Even if he had done what you said, the fact that it accelerated to over 100mph in about a second should indicate to you that what I said is not only possible, but common.
same as the helicopters they go flat stick and they throw the pitch .with a totally out of control object in the sky.
No, that's stored energy in the rotational momentum of the rotor system. Neither what I showed you nor what I do myself is anything like that.
they look almost alien like dont they. (helicopters) when i first seen it ,it blew me away how fast they accelerated vertically. and they were huuuuuuge machines blades would have been 10 feet across.

Don
 
off road on carpet = boring, i left our club for that reason (I used to be club champion),off road is dirt and more driver skill. havnt raced for 18 months off road and to much cheating in touring car racing.

Don
Cars are boring to drive.
 
Reading this thread I'm reminded of the Rowan Atkinson Barclaycard advert of some years ago where Rowan attempts to communicate with a Tuareg rug seller. His aide says "I didn't know you were fluent, Sir" Rowan replies "We're both fluent, but sadly in different languages"


That perhaps illustrates the difficulty of communicating certain concepts which may be complex because of:

a) some general misunderstanding of the differences and effects of EVF lag and shutter lag, not to mention human reaction time;

b) an understandable defence attitude of "I've got a mirrorless camera with an EVF and I've managed to take perfectly good action shots with it, therefore the EVF lag problem does not exist"

If we take shutter lag and human reaction out of the equation, because all cameras of all types are subject to those and because the human brain and experience is able to compensate for them, we are left with EVF lag (which on the latest EVF displays is small but still exists) versus an optical finder in which there is no delay at all (actually not quite true but we're talking about the speed of light over a very short distance so in practical terms there is no delay).

Now if you are panning smoothly with both systems and as long as the angular movement is not too quick, then both systems are probably fine. An OVF is better but an EVF is probably fine for many.

But if the subject is random or extremely fast (in angular terms rather than, say, observing from the ground a jet aircraft at 30,000 ft which may be moving at 600mph but which appears to be moving quite slowly), then an EVF can prove difficult.

Smooth panning will be fine for the jet aircraft example above but may not work well on a subject like a tennis player from court side at Wimbledon because their movements are jerky and erratic even if in real terms they are not moving that fast.

For an erratic subject you need to be able to see the subject in the viewfinder where it now is, not where it was. And if the subject movement is erratic, smooth panning in one direction to keep the image within the frame of an EVF will not work since the subject may actually change or even reverse direction quite rapidly.

Humans can compensate for various types of lag, as do clay pigeon shooters by 'leading' and sports photographers by anticipating the 'point of action'. But in both disciplines the shooter or photographer is able to see the subject in real time. However add viewfinder lag into the mix and absence of being able to "see in real time" can become a real issue.
What are these photos that are so critical as to warrant so much hate in the forum? As far as I can tell, we are talking about an adult taking pictures of toy planes.
 
Reading this thread I'm reminded of the Rowan Atkinson Barclaycard advert of some years ago where Rowan attempts to communicate with a Tuareg rug seller. His aide says "I didn't know you were fluent, Sir" Rowan replies "We're both fluent, but sadly in different languages"


That perhaps illustrates the difficulty of communicating certain concepts which may be complex because of:

a) some general misunderstanding of the differences and effects of EVF lag and shutter lag, not to mention human reaction time;

b) an understandable defence attitude of "I've got a mirrorless camera with an EVF and I've managed to take perfectly good action shots with it, therefore the EVF lag problem does not exist"

If we take shutter lag and human reaction out of the equation, because all cameras of all types are subject to those and because the human brain and experience is able to compensate for them, we are left with EVF lag (which on the latest EVF displays is small but still exists) versus an optical finder in which there is no delay at all (actually not quite true but we're talking about the speed of light over a very short distance so in practical terms there is no delay).

Now if you are panning smoothly with both systems and as long as the angular movement is not too quick, then both systems are probably fine. An OVF is better but an EVF is probably fine for many.

But if the subject is random or extremely fast (in angular terms rather than, say, observing from the ground a jet aircraft at 30,000 ft which may be moving at 600mph but which appears to be moving quite slowly), then an EVF can prove difficult.

Smooth panning will be fine for the jet aircraft example above but may not work well on a subject like a tennis player from court side at Wimbledon because their movements are jerky and erratic even if in real terms they are not moving that fast.

For an erratic subject you need to be able to see the subject in the viewfinder where it now is, not where it was. And if the subject movement is erratic, smooth panning in one direction to keep the image within the frame of an EVF will not work since the subject may actually change or even reverse direction quite rapidly.

Humans can compensate for various types of lag, as do clay pigeon shooters by 'leading' and sports photographers by anticipating the 'point of action'. But in both disciplines the shooter or photographer is able to see the subject in real time. However add viewfinder lag into the mix and absence of being able to "see in real time" can become a real issue.
What are these photos that are so critical as to warrant so much hate in the forum? As far as I can tell, we are talking about an adult taking pictures of toy planes.
Was your reply directed at me?
 
https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are :-)

Don
"Please note that this measures the shutter lag in the most general sense, including the viewfinder and (most importantly) you".....
sorry i forgot you own sloooow cameras.:-)

Don
23daa8ba43f24c7ab8927a7867d72807.jpg

:D
i have one at 1.90 😀 I was a bit trigger happy . Tomorrow I’m going to shoot a 60 frame video wth my em52 with my em12 shooting the screen and see what the actual evf lag is.
I assume you realize the only way to derive EVF-lag from this test is to compare the average of two series of only looking at the monitor.... and another looking at EVF/LCD.

i expect it will be about how fast you are :-) wish I didn’t have to work so much I’m missing out on all the fun and experiments. A mate shoots birds with a v15 pf300 he loves it and his images are first class. He prefers it over his d500 with a 300 vr2 2.8.

Don

--
Olympus EM5mk2 ,EM1mk2
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9412035244
past toys. k100d, k10d,k7,fz5,fz150,500uz,canon G9, Olympus xz1 em5mk1
 
Mirrorless lag tests are a worthy idea, but review sites are typically profiting from buying links and since the lag makes the deficiency so clear in comparison to DSLR, I don't see it happening because it could stall mirrorless sales by a percentage.
Bingo. The (Amazon) Prime Directive.
 
panning test, this was taken with a Nikon 1 V2 a few years ago, nothing is cropped and is probably 10/15fps, i had no problem keeping up with a jet aircraft and filling the frame, i can do this with OVF and EVF but i don't shoot bursts anymore, i don't multiple shots of the same thing.

a gif i made of the images, if you can't do this with an EVF it's your technique
More like my aversion to smeary viewfinder lag. I'm not saying shooting a sequence with mirrorless is impossible, it's just more trouble than it's worth compared to an OVF.
 
Reading this thread I'm reminded of the Rowan Atkinson Barclaycard advert of some years ago where Rowan attempts to communicate with a Tuareg rug seller. His aide says "I didn't know you were fluent, Sir" Rowan replies "We're both fluent, but sadly in different languages"


That perhaps illustrates the difficulty of communicating certain concepts which may be complex because of:

a) some general misunderstanding of the differences and effects of EVF lag and shutter lag, not to mention human reaction time;

b) an understandable defence attitude of "I've got a mirrorless camera with an EVF and I've managed to take perfectly good action shots with it, therefore the EVF lag problem does not exist"

If we take shutter lag and human reaction out of the equation, because all cameras of all types are subject to those and because the human brain and experience is able to compensate for them, we are left with EVF lag (which on the latest EVF displays is small but still exists) versus an optical finder in which there is no delay at all (actually not quite true but we're talking about the speed of light over a very short distance so in practical terms there is no delay).

Now if you are panning smoothly with both systems and as long as the angular movement is not too quick, then both systems are probably fine. An OVF is better but an EVF is probably fine for many.

But if the subject is random or extremely fast (in angular terms rather than, say, observing from the ground a jet aircraft at 30,000 ft which may be moving at 600mph but which appears to be moving quite slowly), then an EVF can prove difficult.

Smooth panning will be fine for the jet aircraft example above but may not work well on a subject like a tennis player from court side at Wimbledon because their movements are jerky and erratic even if in real terms they are not moving that fast.

For an erratic subject you need to be able to see the subject in the viewfinder where it now is, not where it was. And if the subject movement is erratic, smooth panning in one direction to keep the image within the frame of an EVF will not work since the subject may actually change or even reverse direction quite rapidly.

Humans can compensate for various types of lag, as do clay pigeon shooters by 'leading' and sports photographers by anticipating the 'point of action'. But in both disciplines the shooter or photographer is able to see the subject in real time. However add viewfinder lag into the mix and absence of being able to "see in real time" can become a real issue.
What are these photos that are so critical as to warrant so much hate in the forum? As far as I can tell, we are talking about an adult taking pictures of toy planes.
Was your reply directed at me?
No, sorry. It was a general commment regarding this thread.
 
panning test, this was taken with a Nikon 1 V2 a few years ago, nothing is cropped and is probably 10/15fps, i had no problem keeping up with a jet aircraft and filling the frame, i can do this with OVF and EVF but i don't shoot bursts anymore, i don't multiple shots of the same thing.

a gif i made of the images, if you can't do this with an EVF it's your technique
More like my aversion to smeary viewfinder lag. I'm not saying shooting a sequence with mirrorless is impossible, it's just more trouble than it's worth compared to an OVF.
the V2 with silent shutter often felt like you weren't taking shots, it was a bit weird to be honest, never really noticed any smeary lag just a smoothish pan with the subject filling the frame, yeah i can do it a bit better with an OVF but i can use both and i do prefer an OVF for this kind of shooting
 
Reading this thread I'm reminded of the Rowan Atkinson Barclaycard advert of some years ago where Rowan attempts to communicate with a Tuareg rug seller. His aide says "I didn't know you were fluent, Sir" Rowan replies "We're both fluent, but sadly in different languages"


That perhaps illustrates the difficulty of communicating certain concepts which may be complex because of:

a) some general misunderstanding of the differences and effects of EVF lag and shutter lag, not to mention human reaction time;

b) an understandable defence attitude of "I've got a mirrorless camera with an EVF and I've managed to take perfectly good action shots with it, therefore the EVF lag problem does not exist"

If we take shutter lag and human reaction out of the equation, because all cameras of all types are subject to those and because the human brain and experience is able to compensate for them, we are left with EVF lag (which on the latest EVF displays is small but still exists) versus an optical finder in which there is no delay at all (actually not quite true but we're talking about the speed of light over a very short distance so in practical terms there is no delay).

Now if you are panning smoothly with both systems and as long as the angular movement is not too quick, then both systems are probably fine. An OVF is better but an EVF is probably fine for many.

But if the subject is random or extremely fast (in angular terms rather than, say, observing from the ground a jet aircraft at 30,000 ft which may be moving at 600mph but which appears to be moving quite slowly), then an EVF can prove difficult.

Smooth panning will be fine for the jet aircraft example above but may not work well on a subject like a tennis player from court side at Wimbledon because their movements are jerky and erratic even if in real terms they are not moving that fast.

For an erratic subject you need to be able to see the subject in the viewfinder where it now is, not where it was. And if the subject movement is erratic, smooth panning in one direction to keep the image within the frame of an EVF will not work since the subject may actually change or even reverse direction quite rapidly.

Humans can compensate for various types of lag, as do clay pigeon shooters by 'leading' and sports photographers by anticipating the 'point of action'. But in both disciplines the shooter or photographer is able to see the subject in real time. However add viewfinder lag into the mix and absence of being able to "see in real time" can become a real issue.
What are these photos that are so critical as to warrant so much hate in the forum? As far as I can tell, we are talking about an adult taking pictures of toy planes.
Was your reply directed at me?
No, sorry. It was a general commment regarding this thread.
That's ok, I totally agree with you. 😀
 
I'll step in for DPR, no problem.

Reilly D's panning lag ranking so far, based on a half hour at Bestbuy:

3: Nikon Z pretty bad. No fun at all.

2: Canon R not as bad.

3: Sony A7r Best of a bad lot for lag, but akin to looking at the world through a TV cranked up to showroom brightness. People who spend hour after hour on their cell phones won't be as affected.
 
Human response lag is in additional to the machine response lag. I described machine response lag.
Human response lag and EVF lag are apples and oranges in some contexts.

This is not just about "WHEN", but "WHERE"; as in, where is the subject?

With EVF delay, you lose track of the subject more often. Pre-burst will not capture anything useful 0.3 seconds ago, if the subject was not in front of the lens 0.3 seconds ago, while you were frantically searching for it, or before you even noticed it was missing!

Mechanical delay, human response, and EVF delay only add in like units if the subject being in the frame is a given fact.
 

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