EVF "lag" tests REQUIRED in (ML) REVIEWS ???

[tko]

By anticipating the change and taking many shots, I finally got no delay at all!

Beat that !

I'm not going for a negative shutter lag.

https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are

Don

 

[PhotoTeach2]

https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are

Don

For the thousandth time, shutter lag is not related to EVF lag.

Geeze, I could have taught a brain-damaged rat this simple fact by now.

I agree it is not the same ...

SLR/dSLR .... "peak" (of action) + human response time + AF-delay + Mirror-Up + Shutter "curtain-travel-time" + mirror-DOWN time + (non-delayed) LIVE image

ML/EVF .... "peak" + (first DELAYED EVF IMAGE) + human response time + AF-delay + shutter travel-time + SECOND delayed EVF image.

So Lee ... I am agreeing with you on this point.

"Mirror" black-out was/is an issue/problem (which I hated).

But EVF-lag further complicates it in ML.

 

[tko]

The average human reaction time is between 200-250ms. The OMD mk 2 tests out to 137 milliseconds if prefocused. That would mean that poster would need reaction times of 170 mS reported - 137 mS delay = 33 mS.

Human Benchmark

www.humanbenchmark.com

Experienced gamer do maybe 190 mS. A reaction time of 33 mS would put the poster in the Marvel Comic category, The below number of 20-25 mS is impossible.

Bad tests and overly enthusiastic owners = bad data.

https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are

Don

BUT ... when I did (only) use the EVF/LCD, my times averaged 40ms @ 30fps and 35ms @ 60fps.

So I submit this does PROVE a 15-20ms "EVF latency"-lag.

 

[mamallama]

https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are

Don

For the thousandth time, shutter lag is not related to EVF lag.

Geeze, I could have taught a brain-damaged rat this simple fact by now.

You are saying that you can talk to, or teach brain damaged rats about shutter lag and EVF lag.

Yes I can see why we should take notice of you for sure. Ah ha, oh yeah. Okay.

That is just the way he reflects everything back to what he can do.

Danny.

 

[PhotoTeach2]

https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are

Don

Don ... thanks for this link ...

I would like to ask you to REPEAT your (.17ms) test results in the following way.

1. Point your (pre-focused) camera at the (test) screen, but do NOT look through either the eye-EVF or rear-LCD ... LOOK ONLY AT THE (test) SCREEN ...

2. Now ONLY look at the test-screen THROUGH THE CAMERA (and you might try both w/ eye-EVF and a second series of tests look at the rear-LCD.

When I did that with my FZ I was averaging 200-250ms w/OUT using camera EVF/LCD.

BUT ... when I did (only) use the EVF/LCD, my times averaged 400ms @ 30fps and 350ms @ 60fps.

So I submit this does PROVE a 100-200ms "EVF latency"-lag.

And again ... were the problem is with "SECOND+" serial-sequence shots with a (properly) PANNED subject.

OOPS ... need to add a third "0" to make it MS.

 

[Lee Jay]

It's not easy to measure EVF lag.

of coarse it is. just look at the camera recording the screen. this is so basic. LOOK at both screens at the same time.

Right...and you're capable of determining millisecond level timing by eye.

Get a clue.

Here: https://codepen.io/jasonleewilson/pen/gPrxwX

Look at the last three digits on the clock, one with your eye, one with your other eye through the viewfinder, and do the subtraction between them frame-by-frame and average the result, all in your head.

 

[PhotoTeach2]

By anticipating the change and taking many shots, I finally got no delay at all!

Beat that !

I'm not going for a negative shutter lag.

Well, you COULD with "Pre-Burst" ...

https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are

Don

 

[Lee Jay]

https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are

Don

For the thousandth time, shutter lag is not related to EVF lag.

Geeze, I could have taught a brain-damaged rat this simple fact by now.

You are saying that you can talk to, or teach brain damaged rats about shutter lag and EVF lag.

I've explained this simple concept to Don about a hundred times, and he still equates the two.

Dumber than a sack of hammers, I'd say. That's the only conclusion possible if after so many explanations and he still can't tell the difference between shutter lag and viewfinder lag.

 

[nzmacro]

https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are

Don

For the thousandth time, shutter lag is not related to EVF lag.

Geeze, I could have taught a brain-damaged rat this simple fact by now.

You are saying that you can talk to, or teach brain damaged rats about shutter lag and EVF lag.

I've explained this simple concept to Don about a hundred times, and he still equates the two.

Dumber than a sack of hammers, I'd say. That's the only conclusion possible if after so many explanations and he still can't tell the difference between shutter lag and viewfinder lag.

Not interested in that so much and Don makes a lot of sense, EVF also goes with visual human reactions, it's what we see and react to which also goes into the shutter lag. All three are needed I would have thought.

What does interest me, is exactly how do you communicate with those brain dead rats of yours. Do you talk to them, use ESP, electronic waves or what. That's the interesting spooky part.

Do you have a laboratory where you train them, or a bit like Willis and just train them in your bedroom at home.

Have you taught the rats to type yet or got them to talk. So many questions

Danny.

--
------------
Birds and BIF's https://www.flickr.com/photos/124733969@N06/sets/
Need for speed https://www.flickr.com/photos/130646821@N03/albums

 

[Lee Jay]

https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are

Don

For the thousandth time, shutter lag is not related to EVF lag.

Geeze, I could have taught a brain-damaged rat this simple fact by now.

You are saying that you can talk to, or teach brain damaged rats about shutter lag and EVF lag.

I've explained this simple concept to Don about a hundred times, and he still equates the two.

Dumber than a sack of hammers, I'd say. That's the only conclusion possible if after so many explanations and he still can't tell the difference between shutter lag and viewfinder lag.

Not interested in that so much and Don makes a lot of sense,

Don never makes any sense. He just changes the subject.

EVF also goes with visual human reactions, it's what we see and react to which also goes into the shutter lag. All three are needed I would have thought.

But that's a change of the subject. The subject is viewfinder lag, not shutter lag. Viewfinder lag is a major problem EVEN IF YOU AREN'T SHOOTING!

Viewfinder lag is a delay in the closed-loop feedback system of the camera-eye-brain-hand system, and delays cause a reduction in phase margin which reduces closed-loop bandwidth.

The upshot of that is that tracking performance is reduced in the presence of lag in the system - any lag. That lag reduces the ability to track moving subjects.

 

[Lee Jay]

The average human reaction time is between 200-250ms.

Which is irrelevant.
The viewfinder lag is added to any existing lags in the system, and those lags are not the same as human reaction to a new stimulus.

There's a reason gamers study the display lag in monitors, the input lag from a mouse, and the communication lag from network interface cards and switches. Tracking is that reason.

 

[nzmacro]

Not interested in that so much and Don makes a lot of sense,

Don never makes any sense. He just changes the subject.

EVF also goes with visual human reactions, it's what we see and react to which also goes into the shutter lag. All three are needed I would have thought.

But that's a change of the subject. The subject is viewfinder lag, not shutter lag. Viewfinder lag is a major problem EVEN IF YOU AREN'T SHOOTING!

Viewfinder lag is a delay in the closed-loop feedback system of the camera-eye-brain-hand system, and delays cause a reduction in phase margin which reduces closed-loop bandwidth.

The upshot of that is that tracking performance is reduced in the presence of lag in the system - any lag. That lag reduces the ability to track moving subjects.

The issue you face is that there are plenty of shooters out there taking fast paced action shots using an EVF.

So why, how do they make it work. Very simple, it works just fine or we wouldn't get to see what we do from mirrorless cameras.

You and the OP obviously don't have or have never used and that includes having the ability to set up the newer EVFs. Yes we now have EVF setup menus if we need them. Flicker rates, frame rates, adjust the size of the EVF view, etc. I have less blackouts now than I did with OVF's.

I've never missed a shot because of EVF lag, plenty with me not focusing properly, but never because of EVF lag. How many shots would you like to see in a sequence of birds flying past and to make things worse, using manual focus with the EVF.

There is no way I would be using mirrorless if EVF lag was an issue. I would simply go to an OVF.

If it's not for you, then don't worry about it, but at the moment you sound like you are grasping at straws. The rest of the millions of mirrorless users don't really care if you have an issue ;-)

All the best Lee.

Danny.

--
------------
Birds and BIF's https://www.flickr.com/photos/124733969@N06/sets/
Need for speed https://www.flickr.com/photos/130646821@N03/albums

 

[PhotoTeach2]

https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are

Don

For the thousandth time, shutter lag is not related to EVF lag.

Geeze, I could have taught a brain-damaged rat this simple fact by now.

You are saying that you can talk to, or teach brain damaged rats about shutter lag and EVF lag.

I've explained this simple concept to Don about a hundred times, and he still equates the two.

Dumber than a sack of hammers, I'd say. That's the only conclusion possible if after so many explanations and he still can't tell the difference between shutter lag and viewfinder lag.

Not interested in that so much and Don makes a lot of sense, EVF also goes with visual human reactions, it's what we see and react to which also goes into the shutter lag. All three are needed I would have thought.

What does interest me, is exactly how do you communicate with those brain dead rats of yours. Do you talk to them, use ESP, electronic waves or what. That's the interesting spooky part.

Do you have a laboratory where you train them, or a bit like Willis and just train them in your bedroom at home.

Have you taught the rats to type yet or got them to talk. So many questions

YES .. he has ... and they are HERE POSTING ...

 

[nzmacro]

https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are

Don

For the thousandth time, shutter lag is not related to EVF lag.

Geeze, I could have taught a brain-damaged rat this simple fact by now.

You are saying that you can talk to, or teach brain damaged rats about shutter lag and EVF lag.

I've explained this simple concept to Don about a hundred times, and he still equates the two.

Dumber than a sack of hammers, I'd say. That's the only conclusion possible if after so many explanations and he still can't tell the difference between shutter lag and viewfinder lag.

Not interested in that so much and Don makes a lot of sense, EVF also goes with visual human reactions, it's what we see and react to which also goes into the shutter lag. All three are needed I would have thought.

What does interest me, is exactly how do you communicate with those brain dead rats of yours. Do you talk to them, use ESP, electronic waves or what. That's the interesting spooky part.

Do you have a laboratory where you train them, or a bit like Willis and just train them in your bedroom at home.

Have you taught the rats to type yet or got them to talk. So many questions

YES .. he has ... and they are HERE POSTING ...

Does that make you the king

 

[robgendreau]

A couple of people have tried real world testing to see if use of an EVF vs an optical makes a difference in using a camera:

Loading…

www.thewanderinglensman.com

Loading…

www.thewanderinglensman.com

Whether something happening IRL takes x fraction of a second to show up on a display (my E-M5ii does a refresh rate of 120 FPS) doesn't matter a whole lot, if at all, according to these tests. I think Olympus claims that works out to 0.01 sec refresh. https://asia.olympus-imaging.com/product/dslr/em5mk2/feature5.html

So, as an owner of many EVF and OVF cameras, I can see why DPR and others don't bother with EVF testing in terms of "lag."

 

[nzmacro]

Lets make this very simple. get your camera point it at your computer monitor and look at BOTH the rear lcd AND the computer monitor and then tell me how much lag you see when the timer changes the picture. https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/

Don

Some won't get it Don, no matter what you say or do. They once tried an un-adjustable EVF 5-10 years ago or they use a point and shoot. They have no idea of what we use and have now.

Danny.

 

[PhotoTeach2]

A couple of people have tried real world testing to see if use of an EVF vs an optical makes a difference in using a camera:

https://www.thewanderinglensman.com/2017/01/timing-photograph-shutter-lag-evf-lag.html

https://www.thewanderinglensman.com/2017/01/timing-photograph-shutter-lag-evf-lag.html

Whether something happening IRL takes x fraction of a second to show up on a display (my E-M5ii does a refresh rate of 120 FPS) doesn't matter a whole lot, if at all, according to these tests. I think Olympus claims that works out to 0.01 sec refresh. https://asia.olympus-imaging.com/product/dslr/em5mk2/feature5.html

But that again is not the same thing.

There is still an inherent latency between the light impacting the sensor, (as opposed to "eye" w/ OVF), until it is displayed.

So, as an owner of many EVF and OVF cameras, I can see why DPR and others don't bother with EVF testing in terms of "lag."

I think they should ... (Just like they should w/ AF-lag + latency when using LV on dSLR).

 

[Bob A L]

Those types of lag have nothing to do with viewfinder lag. Anyone can see viewfinder lag by looking through the viewfinder and swiftly panning side to side. No idea how one would time it, but why worry about how much it is, just that it's there.

 

[Donald B]

It's not easy to measure EVF lag.

of coarse it is. just look at the camera recording the screen. this is so basic. LOOK at both screens at the same time.

Right...and you're capable of determining millisecond level timing by eye.

so you seem to think the subject is going to disappear from the evf in that split second ;-)

Get a clue.

Here: https://codepen.io/jasonleewilson/pen/gPrxwX

Look at the last three digits on the clock, one with your eye, one with your other eye through the viewfinder, and do the subtraction between them frame-by-frame and average the result, all in your head.

 

[PhotoFactor]

Depends upon which ML camera, there is a wide range of lag.

Also the lag is not critical for a substancial fraction of shooters not taking shots of fast motion.