EVF "lag" tests REQUIRED in (ML) REVIEWS ???

It's not easy to measure EVF lag.
of coarse it is. just look at the camera recording the screen. this is so basic. LOOK at both screens at the same time.
Right...and you're capable of determining millisecond level timing by eye.
so you seem to think the subject is going to disappear from the evf in that split second ;-)
Yeah, because that's what happens in the real world.
you know im going to post a video to end this whole debate once and for all dont you :-)
I already did...it's below.
Lag

Lag free

Everything else is the same (same camera, same lens, same focal length, same photographer, same day, same flight, same target, same speed, same direction).

Now, explain why the one with lag has dramatically worse tracking than the lag free one, despite the lag-free one having 10fps blackout.
jets are dogs to fly , try something a bit more agile :-) try a fast runner or even a quick 3d plane and track that :-)

Don
 
It's not easy to measure EVF lag.
of coarse it is. just look at the camera recording the screen. this is so basic. LOOK at both screens at the same time.
Right...and you're capable of determining millisecond level timing by eye.
so you seem to think the subject is going to disappear from the evf in that split second ;-)
Yeah, because that's what happens in the real world.
you know im going to post a video to end this whole debate once and for all dont you :-)
I already did...it's below.
Lag

Lag free

Everything else is the same (same camera, same lens, same focal length, same photographer, same day, same flight, same target, same speed, same direction).

Now, explain why the one with lag has dramatically worse tracking than the lag free one, despite the lag-free one having 10fps blackout.
jets are dogs to fly , try something a bit more agile :-) try a fast runner or even a quick 3d plane and track that :-)

Don
better still a mod 3.5 turn 1/10 touring car that can hit 100k in 30 meters from a standing start :-) :-)

Don
 
panning test, this was taken with a Nikon 1 V2 a few years ago, nothing is cropped and is probably 10/15fps, i had no problem keeping up with a jet aircraft and filling the frame, i can do this with OVF and EVF but i don't shoot bursts anymore, i don't multiple shots of the same thing.

a gif i made of the images, if you can't do this with an EVF it's your technique

0538dec104814b2890cfa6949009dcf5.jpg.gif
have you flown a racing drone ?

Don
nope and i have no intention of doing so
 
https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are :-)

Don
"Please note that this measures the shutter lag in the most general sense, including the viewfinder and (most importantly) you".....
no it doesnt just record your monitor and look at the rear lcd and the monitor at the same time. and you will see their is practically NOOOOOOO lag
So you post a link, someone quotes from it, and you argue that your link is wrong. Lol..

You have to see how funny that is.

And whatever speed you claim to have achieved when photographing your timer, this is not EVF lag, no matter how many times you say it.

I think the problem is... you constantly argue against DSLRs (due to your misguided, insecure elitism) even when you have no clue what the topic is.
i will post a video soon then we will all see what really happens :-)
We don't need a video to see that you posted a link then argued against what it says when someone quoted from it, lol

And how is a video is going to disprove EVF lag ?!

I know how important the whole mirrorless vs DSLR thing is to you, since you invest your life arguing about it, but c'mon dude. Think!
 
https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are :-)

Don
"Please note that this measures the shutter lag in the most general sense, including the viewfinder and (most importantly) you".....
no it doesnt just record your monitor and look at the rear lcd and the monitor at the same time. and you will see their is practically NOOOOOOO lag
So you post a link, someone quotes from it, and you argue that your link is wrong. Lol..

You have to see how funny that is.

And whatever speed you claim to have achieved when photographing your timer, this is not EVF lag, no matter how many times you say it.

I think the problem is... you constantly argue against DSLRs (due to your misguided, insecure elitism) even when you have no clue what the topic is.
i will post a video soon then we will all see what really happens :-)
We don't need a video to see that you posted a link then argued against what it says when someone quoted from it, lol

And how is a video is going to disprove EVF lag ?!

I know how important the whole mirrorless vs DSLR thing is to you, since you invest your life arguing about it, but c'mon dude. Think!
a lot of people argue for either side, both are more than useable to get great results so i don't see what the problem is, i have preferences but i do use both types of viewfinder
 
Reading this thread I'm reminded of the Rowan Atkinson Barclaycard advert of some years ago where Rowan attempts to communicate with a Tuareg rug seller. His aide says "I didn't know you were fluent, Sir" Rowan replies "We're both fluent, but sadly in different languages"


That perhaps illustrates the difficulty of communicating certain concepts which may be complex because of:

a) some general misunderstanding of the differences and effects of EVF lag and shutter lag, not to mention human reaction time;

b) an understandable defence attitude of "I've got a mirrorless camera with an EVF and I've managed to take perfectly good action shots with it, therefore the EVF lag problem does not exist"

If we take shutter lag and human reaction out of the equation, because all cameras of all types are subject to those and because the human brain and experience is able to compensate for them, we are left with EVF lag (which on the latest EVF displays is small but still exists) versus an optical finder in which there is no delay at all (actually not quite true but we're talking about the speed of light over a very short distance so in practical terms there is no delay).

Now if you are panning smoothly with both systems and as long as the angular movement is not too quick, then both systems are probably fine. An OVF is better but an EVF is probably fine for many.

But if the subject is random or extremely fast (in angular terms rather than, say, observing from the ground a jet aircraft at 30,000 ft which may be moving at 600mph but which appears to be moving quite slowly), then an EVF can prove difficult.

Smooth panning will be fine for the jet aircraft example above but may not work well on a subject like a tennis player from court side at Wimbledon because their movements are jerky and erratic even if in real terms they are not moving that fast.

For an erratic subject you need to be able to see the subject in the viewfinder where it now is, not where it was. And if the subject movement is erratic, smooth panning in one direction to keep the image within the frame of an EVF will not work since the subject may actually change or even reverse direction quite rapidly.

Humans can compensate for various types of lag, as do clay pigeon shooters by 'leading' and sports photographers by anticipating the 'point of action'. But in both disciplines the shooter or photographer is able to see the subject in real time. However add viewfinder lag into the mix and absence of being able to "see in real time" can become a real issue.
 
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https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are :-)

Don
"Please note that this measures the shutter lag in the most general sense, including the viewfinder and (most importantly) you".....
sorry i forgot you own sloooow cameras.:-)

Don
23daa8ba43f24c7ab8927a7867d72807.jpg

:D
i have one at 1.90 😀 I was a bit trigger happy . Tomorrow I’m going to shoot a 60 frame video wth my em52 with my em12 shooting the screen and see what the actual evf lag is.

i expect it will be about how fast you are :-) wish I didn’t have to work so much I’m missing out on all the fun and experiments. A mate shoots birds with a v15 pf300 he loves it and his images are first class. He prefers it over his d500 with a 300 vr2 2.8.

Don



--
Olympus EM5mk2 ,EM1mk2
past toys. k100d, k10d,k7,fz5,fz150,500uz,canon G9, Olympus xz1 em5mk1
 
Tracking faster and more erratic subjects will not change the result I just gave.

I've tracked aerobatic UMX airplanes tightly framed and planes that accelerate faster than cars or trucks. I've tracked helicopters and planes making 15g+ maneuvers.
 
Tracking faster and more erratic subjects will not change the result I just gave.

I've tracked aerobatic UMX airplanes tightly framed and planes that accelerate faster than cars or trucks. I've tracked helicopters and planes making 15g+ maneuvers.
now your full of it, because i fly as well and the mod cars flog any plane from a standing start. if evf was that much of a problem how do they fly competition drones ?

Don

--
Olympus EM5mk2 ,EM1mk2
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9412035244
past toys. k100d, k10d,k7,fz5,fz150,500uz,canon G9, Olympus xz1 em5mk1
 
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It's not easy to measure EVF lag.
of coarse it is. just look at the camera recording the screen. this is so basic. LOOK at both screens at the same time.
Right...and you're capable of determining millisecond level timing by eye.
so you seem to think the subject is going to disappear from the evf in that split second ;-)
Yeah, because that's what happens in the real world.

Lag

Lag free

Everything else is the same (same camera, same lens, same focal length,
I'm confused ...

Isn't the point that the video with lag was shot through an EVF, while the lag-free sequence of photos was shot through an OVF?
same photographer, same day, same flight, same target, same speed, same direction).

Now, explain why the one with lag has dramatically worse tracking than the lag free one, despite the lag-free one having 10fps blackout.

--
Lee Jay
 
It's not easy to measure EVF lag.
of coarse it is. just look at the camera recording the screen. this is so basic. LOOK at both screens at the same time.
Right...and you're capable of determining millisecond level timing by eye.
so you seem to think the subject is going to disappear from the evf in that split second ;-)
Yeah, because that's what happens in the real world.

Lag

Lag free

Everything else is the same (same camera, same lens, same focal length,
I'm confused ...

Isn't the point that the video with lag was shot through an EVF, while the lag-free sequence of photos was shot through an OVF?
lost me to, and look how crap the auto focus was. i think he needs to use a pro mirror-less. a blind man could have focused better.

Don

same photographer, same day, same flight, same target, same speed, same direction).

Now, explain why the one with lag has dramatically worse tracking than the lag free one, despite the lag-free one having 10fps blackout.
 
Tracking faster and more erratic subjects will not change the result I just gave.

I've tracked aerobatic UMX airplanes tightly framed and planes that accelerate faster than cars or trucks. I've tracked helicopters and planes making 15g+ maneuvers.
now your full of it, because i fly as well and the mod cars flog any plane from a standing start.
I have three planes that can reach 60mph in between 1 and 2 seconds from a standing start. One of them is even a float plane.
if evf was that much of a problem how do they fly competition drones ?
Notably, they crash a lot and also notably they pay a ton of attention to lag in the system.
 
It's not easy to measure EVF lag.
of coarse it is. just look at the camera recording the screen. this is so basic. LOOK at both screens at the same time.
Right...and you're capable of determining millisecond level timing by eye.
so you seem to think the subject is going to disappear from the evf in that split second ;-)
Yeah, because that's what happens in the real world.

Lag

Lag free

Everything else is the same (same camera, same lens, same focal length,
I'm confused ...

Isn't the point that the video with lag was shot through an EVF, while the lag-free sequence of photos was shot through an OVF?
Yeah, and the lag-free sequence has far superior tracking with the plane virtually dead center the entire time, while the video has the planes all over the frame.
 
The average human reaction time is between 200-250ms.
Which is irrelevant.
You not very good at reading comprehension, are you?
The viewfinder lag is added to any existing lags in the system, and those lags are not the same as human reaction to a new stimulus.
The test the post referred to could only measure human reaction time AND shutter lag.
Neither of which is relevant to the topic of the thread - EVF lag.
Reporting a shutter + reaction time number of 30 mS is nonsense. I guess you didn't get the joke.
There's a reason gamers study the display lag in monitors, the input lag from a mouse, and the communication lag from network interface cards and switches. Tracking is that reason.
Blah blah blah. A photographer isn't a gamer. If the typical person has a reaction time of 250-500 mS and the shutter delay is 25 mS, that's pretty fast.
And shutter lag is still not EVF lag, and shutter lag has no impact on tracking performance.
 
https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are :-)

Don
For the thousandth time, shutter lag is not related to EVF lag.

Geeze, I could have taught a brain-damaged rat this simple fact by now.
For the second time in a week I've found myself referring to the famous statement attributed to Thomas Cardinal Wolsey, "Be very, very careful what you put in that head, because you will never, ever get it out."

A whole group of mirrorless fans have "learned" something they read somewhere about "shutter lag." Whenever the word "lag" shows up in comments about mirrorless their reflex response swings into support the level of "shutter lag" present or not in mirrorless cameras. Someone put "shutter lag" into their head and it reflexively comes out as an argument on the totally different subject of EVF lag.

It is a common form of something akin to brain damage which could be called "information damage." Once the idea takes root, rooting it out takes acquisition of new knowledge, flexibility and thinking. Unfortunately the reflex usually overpowers those.
 
Tracking faster and more erratic subjects will not change the result I just gave.

I've tracked aerobatic UMX airplanes tightly framed and planes that accelerate faster than cars or trucks. I've tracked helicopters and planes making 15g+ maneuvers.
now your full of it, because i fly as well and the mod cars flog any plane from a standing start.
I have three planes that can reach 60mph in between 1 and 2 seconds from a standing start. One of them is even a float plane.
total garbage.
if evf was that much of a problem how do they fly competition drones ?
Notably, they crash a lot and also notably they pay a ton of attention to lag in the system.
 
It's not easy to measure EVF lag.
of coarse it is. just look at the camera recording the screen. this is so basic. LOOK at both screens at the same time.
Right...and you're capable of determining millisecond level timing by eye.
so you seem to think the subject is going to disappear from the evf in that split second ;-)
Yeah, because that's what happens in the real world.

Lag

Lag free

Everything else is the same (same camera, same lens, same focal length,
I'm confused ...

Isn't the point that the video with lag was shot through an EVF, while the lag-free sequence of photos was shot through an OVF?
Yeah, and the lag-free sequence has far superior tracking with the plane virtually dead center the entire time, while the video has the planes all over the frame.
that looked like user error to me.

Don
 

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