EVF "lag" tests REQUIRED in (ML) REVIEWS ???

Not interested in that so much and Don makes a lot of sense,
Don never makes any sense. He just changes the subject.
EVF also goes with visual human reactions, it's what we see and react to which also goes into the shutter lag. All three are needed I would have thought.
But that's a change of the subject. The subject is viewfinder lag, not shutter lag. Viewfinder lag is a major problem EVEN IF YOU AREN'T SHOOTING!

Viewfinder lag is a delay in the closed-loop feedback system of the camera-eye-brain-hand system, and delays cause a reduction in phase margin which reduces closed-loop bandwidth.

The upshot of that is that tracking performance is reduced in the presence of lag in the system - any lag. That lag reduces the ability to track moving subjects.
The issue you face is that there are plenty of shooters out there taking fast paced action shots using an EVF.
They'd do better with an OVF.
So why, how do they make it work.
They suffer from the degradation caused by the lag. Their hit rate is lower than it would be without the lag.
Very simple, it works just fine or we wouldn't get to see what we do from mirrorless cameras.
It doesn't work just fine, its degradation is not sufficient to cause failure for some subjects. That doesn't mean the degradation isn't there.
You and the OP obviously don't have or have never used and that includes having the ability to set up the newer EVFs. Yes we now have EVF setup menus if we need them. Flicker rates, frame rates, adjust the size of the EVF view, etc. I have less blackouts now than I did with OVF's.
Doesn't matter - lag causes tracking degradation. Period. It's not something you can change.
I've never missed a shot because of EVF lag,
I have.
plenty with me not focusing properly, but never because of EVF lag. How many shots would you like to see in a sequence of birds flying past and to make things worse, using manual focus with the EVF.
Show me you can do just as well, on the same target from the same location with the same focal length with and without EVF lag. You see, I've actually tried that, and 25ms of lag caused tracking degradation that I could only compensate for by reducing focal length from 600mm to 200mm.
There is no way I would be using mirrorless if EVF lag was an issue. I would simply go to an OVF.
EVF lag is an issue, you just don't shoot hard enough subjects for it to be an issue for you or you don't mind the degradation in hit rate you get because of the lag.
If it's not for you, then don't worry about it, but at the moment you sound like you are grasping at straws.
No, I'm teaching you a bit of control theory.
The rest of the millions of mirrorless users don't really care if you have an issue ;-)
Well, if you shoot landscapes or slow-moving subjects, it won't be an issue.
 
A couple of people have tried real world testing to see if use of an EVF vs an optical makes a difference in using a camera:
I'm one of them, and lag made a HUGE difference.

I've tried this in two entirely different ways with two entirely different cameras, and both tests showed a HUGE difference in tracking performance from lag.
Those tests had exactly nothing to do with tracking.

Shutter lag is an entirely different subject, unrelated to the one I'm talking about.

--
Lee Jay
 
https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are :-)

Don
"Please note that this measures the shutter lag in the most general sense, including the viewfinder and (most importantly) you".....
no it doesnt just record your monitor and look at the rear lcd and the monitor at the same time. and you will see their is practically NOOOOOOO lag

Don
that quote is from the website you linked to lol
Lol... He has no clue what he's posting, or doing.

The thread is about lag while panning, and he's arguing his eyes notice no lag when tripod mounted and aimed at a timer.
 
It's not easy to measure EVF lag.
of coarse it is. just look at the camera recording the screen. this is so basic. LOOK at both screens at the same time.
Right...and you're capable of determining millisecond level timing by eye.
so you seem to think the subject is going to disappear from the evf in that split second ;-)
Yeah, because that's what happens in the real world.

Lag

Lag free

Everything else is the same (same camera, same lens, same focal length, same photographer, same day, same flight, same target, same speed, same direction).

Now, explain why the one with lag has dramatically worse tracking than the lag free one, despite the lag-free one having 10fps blackout.
 
https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are :-)

Don
"Please note that this measures the shutter lag in the most general sense, including the viewfinder and (most importantly) you".....
no it doesnt just record your monitor and look at the rear lcd and the monitor at the same time. and you will see their is practically NOOOOOOO lag
So you post a link, someone quotes from it, and you argue that your link is wrong. Lol..

You have to see how funny that is.

And whatever speed you claim to have achieved when photographing your timer, this is not EVF lag, no matter how many times you say it.

I think the problem is... you constantly argue against DSLRs (due to your misguided, insecure elitism) even when you have no clue what the topic is.
 
I am a very strong ML/EVF supporter, but have to admit EVF-"lag" is its single biggest problem, and much different (worse) than older SLR/dSLR "blackout".
My problem with mirrorless wasn't just EVF lag, it was more the combined EVF lag + picture taking lag which was so much greater.

When I take photos with DSLR, I know from tests and experience that it takes nearly 0.3s from me deciding to trip the shutter to it happening, but I see everything in real time and I quickly learn to account for it. If the lag is short enough, you can see through it and you can completely account for it, it's not so bad.

When I took photos with mirrorless, I found that I was getting a lag of at least 0.3s from what I was seeing in the viewfinder and the total lag felt doubled. What I was seeing in the viewfinder was slightly behind reality, then the image freezes briefly and the sensor was re-read to take the photo, with the end result that my photos had an awful lot of lag on and made me have to try to predict things much more in advance, getting me rather random results.

Mirrorless lag tests are a worthy idea, but review sites are typically profiting from buying links and since the lag makes the deficiency so clear in comparison to DSLR, I don't see it happening because it could stall mirrorless sales by a percentage.
 
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It's not easy to measure EVF lag.
of coarse it is. just look at the camera recording the screen. this is so basic. LOOK at both screens at the same time.
Right...and you're capable of determining millisecond level timing by eye.
so you seem to think the subject is going to disappear from the evf in that split second ;-)
Yeah, because that's what happens in the real world.
you know im going to post a video to end this whole debate once and for all dont you :-)
Lag

Lag free

Everything else is the same (same camera, same lens, same focal length, same photographer, same day, same flight, same target, same speed, same direction).

Now, explain why the one with lag has dramatically worse tracking than the lag free one, despite the lag-free one having 10fps blackout.
 
https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are :-)

Don
"Please note that this measures the shutter lag in the most general sense, including the viewfinder and (most importantly) you".....
no it doesnt just record your monitor and look at the rear lcd and the monitor at the same time. and you will see their is practically NOOOOOOO lag
So you post a link, someone quotes from it, and you argue that your link is wrong. Lol..

You have to see how funny that is.

And whatever speed you claim to have achieved when photographing your timer, this is not EVF lag, no matter how many times you say it.

I think the problem is... you constantly argue against DSLRs (due to your misguided, insecure elitism) even when you have no clue what the topic is.
i will post a video soon then we will all see what really happens :-)

Don
 
It's not easy to measure EVF lag.
of coarse it is. just look at the camera recording the screen. this is so basic. LOOK at both screens at the same time.
Right...and you're capable of determining millisecond level timing by eye.
so you seem to think the subject is going to disappear from the evf in that split second ;-)
Yeah, because that's what happens in the real world.
you know im going to post a video to end this whole debate once and for all dont you :-)
I already did...it's below.
Lag

Lag free

Everything else is the same (same camera, same lens, same focal length, same photographer, same day, same flight, same target, same speed, same direction).

Now, explain why the one with lag has dramatically worse tracking than the lag free one, despite the lag-free one having 10fps blackout.
 
https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are :-)

Don
"Please note that this measures the shutter lag in the most general sense, including the viewfinder and (most importantly) you".....
no it doesnt just record your monitor and look at the rear lcd and the monitor at the same time. and you will see their is practically NOOOOOOO lag
So you post a link, someone quotes from it, and you argue that your link is wrong. Lol..

You have to see how funny that is.

And whatever speed you claim to have achieved when photographing your timer, this is not EVF lag, no matter how many times you say it.

I think the problem is... you constantly argue against DSLRs (due to your misguided, insecure elitism) even when you have no clue what the topic is.
i will post a video soon then we will all see what really happens :-)

Don
Such a video won't be all that practically informative. Panning and watching tear and jelly effect would be more useful.

Try taking a video showing tripping the shutter on a mirrorless so we can see the time lag on the actual photo taken in different autofocus modes, in one of those high speed modes where you get a slideshow of the pictures taken instead of the EVF preview. It would be an easy demo to do.
 
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Lets make this very simple. get your camera point it at your computer monitor and look at BOTH the rear lcd AND the computer monitor and then tell me how much lag you see when the timer changes the picture. https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/

Don
Good test. I have tried it a number of times. One run, I used the EVF. The 2nd run, I watched the computer screen. In both cases, I was seeing around 0.40 to 0.45 sec. No difference between the two.

This tells me two things.

1. My reaction time was was about 0.40 to 0.45 sec.

2. Lag, whatever it was, had to be much faster than my reaction time.

I was using a Sony A6300 with the lens in manual focus mode so that I wasn't waiting for the lens to focus too.

Another thing to try: While looking at the LCD, rotate the camera to the left and then to the right a number of times. If there is a noticeable lag, than as you are panning right and suddenly switch to panning left, you would see the image in the LCD continue to the right and then start moving to the left. In doing this, I see no lag. As soon as I change panning direction, the LCD records the correct direction with ZERO determinable lag.

One question I could add to this is: What is the DSLR lag time to wait for the mirror to go up in order to make a shot?

Doing some Googling of shutter lag time on the Sony A6300, I see a figure of 0,020 sec for a pre-focused lens. This is way faster than my 0.4 sec reaction time I measured above. This tells me that mirrorless shutter lag being a problem is a myth.

Also found a time for the Canon EOS 50M and it was 0.053 sec. Slower than the A6300, but still much faster than human reaction time.
 
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https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are :-)

Don
Don ... thanks for this link ...

I would like to ask you to REPEAT your (.17ms) test results in the following way.

1. Point your (pre-focused) camera at the (test) screen, but do NOT look through either the eye-EVF or rear-LCD ... LOOK ONLY AT THE (test) SCREEN ...

2. Now ONLY look at the test-screen THROUGH THE CAMERA (and you might try both w/ eye-EVF and a second series of tests look at the rear-LCD.

When I did that with my FZ I was averaging 20-25ms w/OUT using camera EVF/LCD.

BUT ... when I did (only) use the EVF/LCD, my times averaged 40ms @ 30fps and 35ms @ 60fps.

So I submit this does PROVE a 15-20ms "EVF latency"-lag.

And again ... were the problem is with "SECOND+" serial-sequence shots with a (properly) PANNED subject.
did that and got near the same or same as you 15/20 millisecs which is basically non existent. considering the mirror on a dslr adds more than 15 milli seconds so you have no advantage of no lag in the vf. human reponse 200+15evf = 215 dslr 200+0+15mirror =215 same so no disadvantage at capturing the image.

Don
 
Lets make this very simple. get your camera point it at your computer monitor and look at BOTH the rear lcd AND the computer monitor and then tell me how much lag you see when the timer changes the picture. https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/

Don
Good test. I have tried it a number of times. One run, I used the EVF. The 2nd run, I watched the computer screen. In both cases, I was seeing around 0.40 to 0.45 sec. No difference between the two.

This tells me two things.

1. My reaction time was was about 0.40 to 0.45 sec.

2. Lag, whatever it was, had to be much faster than my reaction time.

I was using a Sony A6300 with the lens in manual focus mode so that I wasn't waiting for the lens to focus too.

Another thing to try: While looking at the LCD, rotate the camera to the left and then to the right a number of times. If there is a noticeable lag, than as you are panning right and suddenly switch to panning left, you would see the image in the LCD continue to the right and then start moving to the left. In doing this, I see no lag. As soon as I change panning direction, the LCD records the correct direction with ZERO determinable lag.

One question I could add to this is: What is the DSLR lag time to wait for the mirror to go up in order to make a shot?

Doing some Googling of shutter lag time on the Sony A6300, I see a figure of 0,020 sec for a pre-focused lens. This is way faster than my 0.4 sec reaction time I measured above. This tells me that mirrorless shutter lag being a problem is a myth.

Also found a time for the Canon EOS 50M and it was 0.053 sec. Slower than the A6300, but still much faster than human reaction time.
exactly right 'being a problem is a myth" as you said the mirror has to flip up which cancels out the evf lag not to mention "black out" when it does. have you noticed no one hasnt mentioned black out from the mirror :-)

Don
 
The average human reaction time is between 200-250ms.
Which is irrelevant.
You not very good at reading comprehension, are you?
The viewfinder lag is added to any existing lags in the system, and those lags are not the same as human reaction to a new stimulus.
The test the post referred to could only measure human reaction time AND shutter lag. Reporting a shutter + reaction time number of 30 mS is nonsense. I guess you didn't get the joke.
There's a reason gamers study the display lag in monitors, the input lag from a mouse, and the communication lag from network interface cards and switches. Tracking is that reason.
Blah blah blah. A photographer isn't a gamer. If the typical person has a reaction time of 250-500 mS and the shutter delay is 25 mS, that's pretty fast.
 
Lets make this very simple. get your camera point it at your computer monitor and look at BOTH the rear lcd AND the computer monitor and then tell me how much lag you see when the timer changes the picture. https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/

Don
Good test. I have tried it a number of times. One run, I used the EVF. The 2nd run, I watched the computer screen. In both cases, I was seeing around 0.40 to 0.45 sec. No difference between the two.

This tells me two things.

1. My reaction time was was about 0.40 to 0.45 sec.

2. Lag, whatever it was, had to be much faster than my reaction time.

I was using a Sony A6300 with the lens in manual focus mode so that I wasn't waiting for the lens to focus too.

Another thing to try: While looking at the LCD, rotate the camera to the left and then to the right a number of times. If there is a noticeable lag, than as you are panning right and suddenly switch to panning left, you would see the image in the LCD continue to the right and then start moving to the left. In doing this, I see no lag. As soon as I change panning direction, the LCD records the correct direction with ZERO determinable lag.

One question I could add to this is: What is the DSLR lag time to wait for the mirror to go up in order to make a shot?

Doing some Googling of shutter lag time on the Sony A6300, I see a figure of 0,020 sec for a pre-focused lens. This is way faster than my 0.4 sec reaction time I measured above. This tells me that mirrorless shutter lag being a problem is a myth.

Also found a time for the Canon EOS 50M and it was 0.053 sec. Slower than the A6300, but still much faster than human reaction time.
exactly right 'being a problem is a myth" as you said the mirror has to flip up which cancels out the evf lag not to mention "black out" when it does. have you noticed no one hasnt mentioned black out from the mirror :-)
I have (several times) ...

And yes I HATED the blackout and used rangefinder type cameras as much as possible during film days, (and another reason I now prefer ML -- albeit there is still blackout).

BUT ... I have to admit there was no lag either before first-shot or after image returns ... so EASIER to "pan".

With EVF there is already lag before first shot, (not a major problem), but ANOTHER LAG after (ML) blackout requiring a person to "jump" forward even if very experienced w/ panning-technique.

It is harder to (smoothly) track when panning, (and impossible if "erratic").
 
The average human reaction time is between 200-250ms.
Which is irrelevant.
You not very good at reading comprehension, are you?
The viewfinder lag is added to any existing lags in the system, and those lags are not the same as human reaction to a new stimulus.
The test the post referred to could only measure human reaction time AND shutter lag. Reporting a shutter + reaction time number of 30 mS is nonsense. I guess you didn't get the joke.
There's a reason gamers study the display lag in monitors, the input lag from a mouse, and the communication lag from network interface cards and switches. Tracking is that reason.
Blah blah blah. A photographer isn't a gamer. If the typical person has a reaction time of 250-500 mS and the shutter delay is 25 mS, that's pretty fast.
I was between 250/300ms delay when only looking @ monitor.

But averging, (+100-150ms), 400ms looking @ EVF/LCD on camera.

And I could SEE a noticable delay when eyes were watching both.
 
https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/ my finger to image capture was .17 em12 by the way their is virtually no evf lag. lets see how good you dslr users are :-)

Don
Don ... thanks for this link ...

I would like to ask you to REPEAT your (.17ms) test results in the following way.

1. Point your (pre-focused) camera at the (test) screen, but do NOT look through either the eye-EVF or rear-LCD ... LOOK ONLY AT THE (test) SCREEN ...

2. Now ONLY look at the test-screen THROUGH THE CAMERA (and you might try both w/ eye-EVF and a second series of tests look at the rear-LCD.

When I did that with my FZ I was averaging 20-25ms w/OUT using camera EVF/LCD.

BUT ... when I did (only) use the EVF/LCD, my times averaged 40ms @ 30fps and 35ms @ 60fps.

So I submit this does PROVE a 15-20ms "EVF latency"-lag.

And again ... were the problem is with "SECOND+" serial-sequence shots with a (properly) PANNED subject.
did that and got near the same or same as you 15/20 millisecs which is basically non existent. considering the mirror on a dslr adds more than 15 milli seconds so you have no advantage of no lag in the vf. human reponse 200+15evf = 215 dslr 200+0+15mirror =215 same so no disadvantage at capturing the image.

Don
I have CORRECTED those numbers.

Note that a .15 is actually 150ms .... so you have to add a "0" to all.
 
panning test, this was taken with a Nikon 1 V2 a few years ago, nothing is cropped and is probably 10/15fps, i had no problem keeping up with a jet aircraft and filling the frame, i can do this with OVF and EVF but i don't shoot bursts anymore, i don't multiple shots of the same thing.

a gif i made of the images, if you can't do this with an EVF it's your technique



0538dec104814b2890cfa6949009dcf5.jpg.gif
 
Lets make this very simple. get your camera point it at your computer monitor and look at BOTH the rear lcd AND the computer monitor and then tell me how much lag you see when the timer changes the picture. https://www.zoul.cz/shutter-lag/

Don
Good test. I have tried it a number of times. One run, I used the EVF. The 2nd run, I watched the computer screen. In both cases, I was seeing around 0.40 to 0.45 sec. No difference between the two.

This tells me two things.

1. My reaction time was was about 0.40 to 0.45 sec.

2. Lag, whatever it was, had to be much faster than my reaction time.

I was using a Sony A6300 with the lens in manual focus mode so that I wasn't waiting for the lens to focus too.

Another thing to try: While looking at the LCD, rotate the camera to the left and then to the right a number of times. If there is a noticeable lag, than as you are panning right and suddenly switch to panning left, you would see the image in the LCD continue to the right and then start moving to the left. In doing this, I see no lag. As soon as I change panning direction, the LCD records the correct direction with ZERO determinable lag.

One question I could add to this is: What is the DSLR lag time to wait for the mirror to go up in order to make a shot?

Doing some Googling of shutter lag time on the Sony A6300, I see a figure of 0,020 sec for a pre-focused lens. This is way faster than my 0.4 sec reaction time I measured above. This tells me that mirrorless shutter lag being a problem is a myth.

Also found a time for the Canon EOS 50M and it was 0.053 sec. Slower than the A6300, but still much faster than human reaction time.
exactly right 'being a problem is a myth" as you said the mirror has to flip up which cancels out the evf lag not to mention "black out" when it does. have you noticed no one hasnt mentioned black out from the mirror :-)
I have (several times) ...

And yes I HATED the blackout and used rangefinder type cameras as much as possible during film days, (and another reason I now prefer ML -- albeit there is still blackout).

BUT ... I have to admit there was no lag either before first-shot or after image returns ... so EASIER to "pan".

With EVF there is already lag before first shot, (not a major problem), but ANOTHER LAG after (ML) blackout requiring a person to "jump" forward even if very experienced w/ panning-technique.

It is harder to (smoothly) track when panning, (and impossible if "erratic").
Have you ever flown a racing drone using the lcd head gear ? and tell me about panning :-)

Don
 
panning test, this was taken with a Nikon 1 V2 a few years ago, nothing is cropped and is probably 10/15fps, i had no problem keeping up with a jet aircraft and filling the frame, i can do this with OVF and EVF but i don't shoot bursts anymore, i don't multiple shots of the same thing.

a gif i made of the images, if you can't do this with an EVF it's your technique

0538dec104814b2890cfa6949009dcf5.jpg.gif
have you flown a racing drone ?

Don

--
Olympus EM5mk2 ,EM1mk2
past toys. k100d, k10d,k7,fz5,fz150,500uz,canon G9, Olympus xz1 em5mk1
 

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