1 year with Fujifilm XT20...

willowjane · Mar 19, 2019

YY101 said:
My settings:

AF-S/AF-C, single/3x3 zone, with/without Face (i never use eye as I find its performance really slow and bad), S/CL. 8 different combinations here though usually for moving subject it's AF-C, 3x3 zone, face on and CL with SS at around 1/60 to 1/200 depending on lighting conditions.

I would suggest going back to the bare basics of where your shutter speed, aperture and ISO are set.

As a previous poster stated if you are trying to shoot with a 1.4 aperture with a 50mm lens at 5 feet away your available "slice" of focus is only going to be around 1' from front to back. If you are a shaky camera holder reduce it to about 3/4th of a inch.

If your shutter speed is too slow you will have soft focus photos.

If you find you have to increase the aperture to get a deep enough slice of focus and increase your shutter speed for sharpness, this is where ISO comes in to compensate and provide more brightness.

If you don't want the grain a higher ISO introduces try putting the camera on shutter priority mode (assuming you are shooting a fast moving toddler) and set your shutter speed to 160 or 200. I personally shoot at 250 most of the time because I am a shaky shooter. You can then use exposure compensation to compensate for the lower than desired light.

It really is a balancing act with the exposure triangle. My suggestion is to work with getting sharp, properly exposed photos using those three elements first and then introduce some of the cameras more advanced features when shooting in manual.

YY101 · Mar 19, 2019

PF511 said:
YY101 said:

Holden75 said:

I have both an X-T20 and the 35 f1.4 and I also have a young daughter. While I do miss focus occasionally, and more than I did using a Sony a6000, I don't think I miss as much as you do. It took me a while to get it right but I haven't had mine as long as you. But my hit rate has definitely improved as I've worked out how to use the system. What af settings are you using?

Click to expand...

I have tried different combination:

AF-S/AF-C, single/3x3 zone, with/without Face (i never use eye as I find its performance really slow and bad), S/CL

So that's 8 different combination. For moving subject, I usually use AF-C, 3x3 with face detection and CL. Problem is, sometimes I will get 8 out of 10 good images, other times, the whole sequence of 6 to 10 images are all out of focus or soft. The hit rate is probably around 1 out of 2 to 1 out of 3 depending on lighting conditions on average. I try to keep SS at around 1/100.

Click to expand...

Congrats on your little one!

I think your problem is that combining a shutter speed of 1/100 with a f/1.4 aperture is too slow and/or too shallow to get sharp shots consistently, especially indoors.

With a f/1.4 aperture and being close up, if your daughter moves fractions of an inch, or if you're moving the camera, you're going to get an out of focus shot. With a shutter speed of 1/100, it doesn't take much movement to cause blur/softness. When you combine both, you're going to have a lot of blurry and out of focus shots. This isn't the fault of the camera. It's the nature of that aperture on close shots and that shutter speed with movement.

The reason you get sharp shots with your phone is that depth of field is pretty much infinite and it will up the ISO as needed, no matter how much noise is introduced.

This isn't really an autofocus issue. If you're close to your daughter and either of you are moving at all, you're probably going to need to stop your aperture down past f/1.4 so the depth of field isn't so narrow. Using f/1.4 is probably better for shots where she's a little further away or not moving. If she is moving, up your ISO significantly, especially for indoor shots, or set your minimum SS to 1/250 or even higher.

Hope that helps!

Dear PF511, Thanks so much for sharing your insights. I will give your recommendations a try. Also, I do stopped down sometimes to get more depth of field. That said, I was under the impression that fast lens autofocus faster because they have better light gathering abilities and by stopping down and denying the sensor the extra light, the AF will slow down because it has less information to make focusing decisions.

007peter · Mar 19, 2019

YY101 said:
I got my XT20 + XF18-55 in early 2018

too bad, you bought a year too early before the release of 2019 X-T30

YY101 said:
If there's any complain with the Fuji, it's the autofocus on the XT20. For some reasons, I will get rather soft images frequently even when my daughter is not moving much. The hit rate when my baby is moving is quite abysmal. I tried AF-S, AF-C, single, zone, face and even in good lightings, I find myself missing alot of shots. Why is the autofocusing system so frustrating.

Don't blame yourself. Shooting baby is tough: you need a Fast Camera (in an instant) that can focus (in an instant) without any apology. The hard truth is that Fuji camera before 2018 XT-3 simply isn't FAST / QUICK like today's XT3 and XT-30 is.

Good News and Bad News

Good news is that latest $899 XT-30 has Amazing Reliable focusing system that is near the top of the industry. I think only Sony A9 / A6400 is better.

Bad news is that you already bought XT-20 with slow CPU that can't be upgraded to this new AF algorithm.

Rmcp20 · Mar 20, 2019

Holden75 said:
Rmcp20 said:

I think there are a few small issues that lead to your frustation. None of them is a big issue, but all together makes it harder to get AF correct for your usage:

1 - 35mm 1.4 is not a lens to be used in AF-C

This is actually the reason i sold mine. While i loved the images and the size, in AF-S i cant complain, but in AF-C its not good at all, specially in low light/indoors.

This is also one of the reasons why i don't invest on the 23mm 1.4 and keep the f2 version instead. I have a 5 year old son...and the f2 is fine (8 out of 10 when he is moving). If you like 35mm, try the f2 lens. Get a used one, so that if you can't go with f2, you can seel witouth much loss or even profit.

2 - Turn face detection of (it slows down AF) and use the 3x3 zone where the face is. Remember 24mpix allows you to crop a bit withouth loosing much image quality, so use those pixels.

3 - In AF-C custom setting, select option 3, the one with the Go kart. I keep mine with that mode for everything, as i find it the best for generic usage.

4 - Do you have High performance mode turned on? Its a must in every Fuji camera.

This said, remember Sony AF is good but you wont have the lenses you love. Well, they have a Sigma 30mm 1.4, but its much bigger than the Fuji 35mm 1.4.

And the Zeiss 16-70 f4 (which could replace the 18-55) costs quite a bit, even used.

So its a compromise either way, each of us have to choose the "most adequate" system and get the most out of it.

Hope to have helped.

Click to expand...

I'm not disagreeing with you here but just wanted to give a different experience. I find AF-C great with the 35 f1.4 if shot with CL on high performance mode. Not much different to AF-S really. At least I don't notice much difference and I get a similar keeper rate. I do find the 3x3 grid not great for kids though and get a better keeper rate with single point af. I have also found option 6 on the continuous tracking to be the best for shooting kids. So I guess it gives lots of options for different ways of shooting!

Exactly what i was saying, we all have diferent styles and therefore diferent settings work best for us.

However, i don't see an AF-C custom setting 6 on the X-T20, only 5 options...

Do you remember which is the image on that option?

I believe the 6th would be the customizable one that exists on the X-T2/3 and X-T30.

miroshi · Mar 20, 2019

Few months ago I decided to go on Fuji camera.

I considered x-t20 and x-t2, then I heard about upcoming x-t3 and got it, just to be sure I will not have problems with the AF.

I mainly shoot my kids - bigger is 3 and 1/2 years and smaller is 1 year old. The big one know to stop when I shoot her, but not the little one.

Most of my photos are made inside under artificial light. To use lower ISO I stop my shutter speed to 1/125, using 23mm f2 lens. Even with this speed I do not have much missed photos - may be 5%, I did not count them.

At some places I read x-t2 has better low light IQ, but I do not know how the AF compare to x-t3.

With other words (keep in mind I never used x-t20) - I am sure the x-t2 or x-t3 will do the job.

Marek1977 · Mar 20, 2019

I bought X-T20 and 18-55 last year in September and took it to Thailand in December. I switched from Canon 5D II, I had 24-105L, 85mm, 70-300 lenses. It was collecting dust because I was fed up with only 9 AF points and the sheer weight of the system.

My hit rate for sharp images is about 7 out of 10, about the same rate I had on Canon 5d II. What I find most helpful is to set minimal shutter speed at 1/110 or 1/125 and 3 different ISO ranges. I never had camera with face detection before so I cannot compare it to some other camera.

It's a pitty Fuji won't update X-T20 firmware anymore but then I guess there are technical limitations. There will always be a better camera just round the corner with better AF, face detection etc.

The funny thing is we didn't have this 20 years ago yet we were able to produce sharp images.

Banderras · Mar 20, 2019

Marek1977 said:
The funny thing is we didn't have this 20 years ago yet we were able to produce sharp images.

No we weren't. Not at this rate, not for this price point and certainly not in indoors conditions without flash.

20 years ago was 1999. We were still in film era, which means no indoors photography without a flash for any reasonable sharpness. The definition of sharpness was different for most stock apart from finest films. Canon digital rebel was 4 years out, and it still wasn't any good indoors without a flash.

Holden75 · Mar 20, 2019

Sorry, the last one, that must be number 5! The erratic moving one.

Marek1977 · Mar 20, 2019

Banderras said:
Marek1977 said:

The funny thing is we didn't have this 20 years ago yet we were able to produce sharp images.

Click to expand...

No we weren't. Not at this rate, not for this price point and certainly not in indoors conditions without flash.

20 years ago was 1999. We were still in film era, which means no indoors photography without a flash for any reasonable sharpness. The definition of sharpness was different for most stock apart from finest films. Canon digital rebel was 4 years out, and it still wasn't any good indoors without a flash.

Ok, I stand corrected. Still, I think X-T20 is a really great camera, especially its AF is better than what I had on 5d II.

Banderras · Mar 20, 2019

Marek1977 said:
Banderras said:

Marek1977 said:

The funny thing is we didn't have this 20 years ago yet we were able to produce sharp images.

Click to expand...

No we weren't. Not at this rate, not for this price point and certainly not in indoors conditions without flash.

20 years ago was 1999. We were still in film era, which means no indoors photography without a flash for any reasonable sharpness. The definition of sharpness was different for most stock apart from finest films. Canon digital rebel was 4 years out, and it still wasn't any good indoors without a flash.

Click to expand...

Ok, I stand corrected. Still, I think X-T20 is a really great camera, especially its AF is better than what I had on 5d II.

I had the 5D classic, which I believe had same 9 point autofocus as mkII. And AF indoors was not that great, especially AF-C. And that thas a $3 grand camera in 2005. I think the 1D series may be had that good AF-C, and maybe Nikons have had better AF modules also in enthusiast cameras like the D700. So yeah I think we just shoot in conditions that we have not dared to shoot in before, and feel disappointed, but that's just normal.

ediblestarfish · Mar 20, 2019

I have a non-stop 3 year old, so I know how this goes. Before the X-T3, getting shots with face or eye AF in continuous AF was pretty much impossible with my X-T2, X-H1, X-E3.

After getting an X-T3, it has become much easier since continuous AF is quite reliable down to fairly dark conditions, even with the aperture stopped down significantly.

An X-T20 may not have the speedy and reliable continuous AF, but in single AF, you should be able to at least use face detect, with f4+, ~1/80 ss, ISO capped at 6400.

I'm at f4 nearly all the time as default, and it works fine. Sometimes even f4 isn't enough DoF to get a full face in focus, so up close I will stop down to f8.

Shutter speed ranges from 1/60, which is the bare minimum (you will get a fair amount of motion blurred pictures), to 1/80 where things start to get an acceptably good hit rate, to 1/100 and higher where it gets better, but you start to see demising returns as ISO needs to go up.

ISO I use up to 6400, where beyond that, face detail tends to get noticeably blurred out under normal image viewing sizes.

You can view my results on my website.

https://sunflowerinthesky.smugmug.com

vivanchenko · Mar 20, 2019

I don't need continuous tracking to be able to focus when shooting kids. Prediction is the key. I just use the computer between my ears for prediction and pre-focusing (AF set to the Fn button) and this works better than any tracking system on the market today. It also makes photography much more fun. I would say that I can easily get 8 good shots out of 10 in poor to moderate lighting conditions.

Modern focus tracking is good, but far from perfect. There are focusing techniques that trump it. Especially so if you are using a modern camera. It is better to focus (no pun intended) on mastering those techniques rather than rushing headlong into every hyped upgrade. Remember how the E2 was advertised? "The fastest auto-focus system in the world".

I have no remorse that I went with the T20. It has its advantages over the T3/30 (such as electronic shutter performance and IQ which I prefer) and I am planning to upgrade only when Fuji comes up with a significantly better sensor. Current AF improvements are not worth it for me.

Banderras · Mar 20, 2019

vivanchenko said:
I don't need continuous tracking to be able to focus when shooting kids. Prediction is the key. I just use the computer between my ears for prediction and pre-focusing (AF set to the Fn button) and this works better than any tracking system on the market today. It also makes photography much more fun. I would say that I can easily get 8 good shots out of 10 in poor to moderate lighting conditions.

Pre-focusing success rate is so dependent on the environmental conditions, subject matter and desired output, I would not recommend it to anyone as a substitute for AF-C. The biggest problem that you are no longer in control of what moment you shoot, but rather shoot what you are presented with when the action reaches your plane of focus. Then there are other limitations, the success rate is directly proportional to DoF, try shooting a 85 f1.4 and get higher success rate than a nikon d500 in AF-C.

vivanchenko said:
Modern focus tracking is good, but far from perfect. There are focusing techniques that trump it. Especially so if you are using a modern camera. It is better to focus (no pun intended) on mastering those techniques rather then rushing headlong into every hyped upgrade. Remember how the E2 was advertised? "The fastest auto-focus system in the world".

There are plenty of cameras that can handle fast action sports. If it can handle basketball players, it sure can handle kids. Do we really need to bring up Trump here? (joking)

vivanchenko said:
I have no remorse that I went with the T20. It has its advantages over the T3/30 (such as electronic shutter performance and IQ which I prefer) and I am planning to upgrade only when Fuji comes up with a significantly better sensor. Current AF improvements are not worth it for me.

vivanchenko · Mar 20, 2019

Practice makes perfect. Everything depends on how often you do your predictions and how often you are pre-focusing. I am not saying that pre-focusing solves it all. There are different tricks for different situations. I can safely say that prediction/prefocusing works for me in most situations when I am dealing with a dynamic subject. I am sure that understanding and predicting how your dynamic scene is developing is very important for every photographer and is strongly recommended.

No Fuji engineer has more knowledge and understanding of the specific scene you are dealing with at a given moment, so make use of that knowledge! Its much more fun than simply expecting that camera automation will do everything for you and then getting frustrated if it didn't.

ediblestarfish · Mar 20, 2019

I don't agree.

It's not like I don't employ that technique (otherwise I'd never get any shots with a slower shutter speed), but with a more responsive camera, it's faster and easier. Not to mention the cameras get better with these focus tricks all the time, with no signs of stopping or slowing down. As an ordinary human, I have limits in personal skill, as well as time.

Personally the camera is not a fun toy for me to play with, it's just an image making device that I'd prefer to be as invisible as possible. Fun for me is post processing, where I can take the literal results and tune them to my intention.

In my view, I don't know why I wouldn't use the camera that's easier to get the results I want.

Also I don't know what you mean with the IQ and ES. The X-T3 and X-T30 have virtually identical IQ to the X-T20 except base ISO, which is lower for slightly better IQ, and high ISO, where there's a difference at the maximum 51,200 (per DPreview). Personally I don't know of anyone that shoots that high of an ISO that cares too much about IQ at that point. My limit is 6400, which is practically impossible to see any difference. There is however less noise reduction and images come out a bit sharper in details--mostly noticeable to me in the eyes of a face at a distance.

ES the X-T3 and X-T30 scan at a fairly quick pace, so there's drastically reduced rolling shutter and greater avoidance in banding under artificial lighting (along with flicker reduction as an option). Any camera has a IQ penalty for fully engaging the ES.

vivanchenko · Mar 20, 2019

This is what I mean:

Notice how T3's noise performance deteriorates with ES. The graph doesn't show what happens with T2' ES. With the XT20 it actually get's better. Here is a comparison which I made using my T20 at low iso with pulled shadows:

It looks like Fuji had to sacrifice some IQ processing in oder to gain more processing power for AF.

I don't even understand what we are talking about. I have no issues focusing like 98% of the time. I am not upgrading to cover the remaining 2%. The T20 is absolutely adequate for photography and I don't care much about video.

ediblestarfish · Mar 20, 2019

I can honestly only see a color noise difference, which is pretty simple to correct unlike luminance noise.

Really though, without any data on the images, I have no idea what I'm looking at.

The X-T20 ES scan rate is pretty average though, so I wouldn't use it for subjects with significant motion. It's also quite noticeable in slow video pans or slider shots from my experience, where MS isn't even an option.

YY101 · Mar 22, 2019

ediblestarfish said:
I have a non-stop 3 year old, so I know how this goes. Before the X-T3, getting shots with face or eye AF in continuous AF was pretty much impossible with my X-T2, X-H1, X-E3.

After getting an X-T3, it has become much easier since continuous AF is quite reliable down to fairly dark conditions, even with the aperture stopped down significantly.

An X-T20 may not have the speedy and reliable continuous AF, but in single AF, you should be able to at least use face detect, with f4+, ~1/80 ss, ISO capped at 6400.

I'm at f4 nearly all the time as default, and it works fine. Sometimes even f4 isn't enough DoF to get a full face in focus, so up close I will stop down to f8.

Shutter speed ranges from 1/60, which is the bare minimum (you will get a fair amount of motion blurred pictures), to 1/80 where things start to get an acceptably good hit rate, to 1/100 and higher where it gets better, but you start to see demising returns as ISO needs to go up.

ISO I use up to 6400, where beyond that, face detail tends to get noticeably blurred out under normal image viewing sizes.

You can view my results on my website.

https://sunflowerinthesky.smugmug.com

Thanks for your insight. Your photo album looks really nice. I guess my aperture and shutter speed are set properly. I will try to shoot with these settings and see if I can see any improvements.

YY101 · Mar 22, 2019

ediblestarfish said:
I don't agree.

It's not like I don't employ that technique (otherwise I'd never get any shots with a slower shutter speed), but with a more responsive camera, it's faster and easier. Not to mention the cameras get better with these focus tricks all the time, with no signs of stopping or slowing down. As an ordinary human, I have limits in personal skill, as well as time.

Personally the camera is not a fun toy for me to play with, it's just an image making device that I'd prefer to be as invisible as possible. Fun for me is post processing, where I can take the literal results and tune them to my intention.

In my view, I don't know why I wouldn't use the camera that's easier to get the results I want.

Also I don't know what you mean with the IQ and ES. The X-T3 and X-T30 have virtually identical IQ to the X-T20 except base ISO, which is lower for slightly better IQ, and high ISO, where there's a difference at the maximum 51,200 (per DPreview). Personally I don't know of anyone that shoots that high of an ISO that cares too much about IQ at that point. My limit is 6400, which is practically impossible to see any difference. There is however less noise reduction and images come out a bit sharper in details--mostly noticeable to me in the eyes of a face at a distance.

ES the X-T3 and X-T30 scan at a fairly quick pace, so there's drastically reduced rolling shutter and greater avoidance in banding under artificial lighting (along with flicker reduction as an option). Any camera has a IQ penalty for fully engaging the ES.

I think I agree with your assessment. Camera is a tool to capture images and if the easier it is to use (to achieve the desired result), the better.

If I have to improve my photography skill to pro level in order to succeed with a consumer camera, then I think it is an unrealistic scenario.

YY101 · Mar 22, 2019

vivanchenko said:
This is what I mean:

Notice how T3's noise performance deteriorates with ES. The graph doesn't show what happens with T2' ES. With the XT20 it actually get's better. Here is a comparison which I made using my T20 at low iso with pulled shadows:

It looks like Fuji had to sacrifice some IQ processing in oder to gain more processing power for AF.

I don't even understand what we are talking about. I have no issues focusing like 98% of the time. I am not upgrading to cover the remaining 2%. The T20 is absolutely adequate for photography and I don't care much about video.

Ya, this has been reported but I think this is not a big issue because sensor quality is already at a very impressive level. It's just like the sony flagship A9 has worse IQ than say A7Riii and A7iii but you gain significant AF speed and 20 mechanical FPS. Not that anybody is really complaining about the IQ of the A9.

1 year with Fujifilm XT20...

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