PSAM, but why??

There was a recent thread asking if you like the PSAM dial or not, but I didn't see many replies as to WHY. So I ask, what is your reason?
Often, out of convenience, I have the shutter in auto-mode. On my Leica and Fuji, it's easy to override, eg in challenging light or high contrast situations: I just turn the SS-dial.

On a PASM-based cam, I'd have to change the "mode" before I can change the SS-setting. Pretty clunky and really an unnecessary extra step. But hey, at least the photographer knows what "mode" he's in, great isn't it :-D
No, you would simply turn the EC dial on top.
I prefer the SS-dial. Besides, the EC-dial is limited (on most camera's 2-3 stops max) In fact, I would also like the SS-dial on the Fuji had the mechanical feedback (and intermediate stops) like the one on the M. Then again, every camera has its peculiarities and small annoyances (such as a PASM-dial ;-) :-D )
I'm guessing you haven't used Fuji's version of the PASM dial. It has a full 5 stops on the EC dial. The metal dial provides clear mechanical feedback across all intermediate stops. Very solid feeling.
I understand some people are used to PASM, and that's fine. But besides this familiarity for some, there's no actual practical advantage for it. On the contrary, it only adds unnecessary extra steps in order to change exposure settings. And yes I have a few PASM-dial based camera's, some of these I even like a lot, despite this dial ;-)
I'm still trying to understand what the extra steps are? ISO is a simple turn of the top dial. EC is a simple turn of the top dial. Aperture is on the lens ring as usual. Maybe other brands make the PASM dial more difficult to use? I don't know.

Sal
Can I be the one to point out that adjusting a shutter speed dial and adjusting an EC dial are two different things?
No, in Aperture priority (which is what I've been discussing here) the aperture is set manually and ISO is set manually. What changes when I adjust the EC dial?
That may be your strict definition of aperture priority but your own camera doesn’t agree with it.
That is the definition of Aperture priority.
As we already discovered in the other thread, on your XT100 you can use your ISO dial to select auto ISO (and hey, without the markings you might not even notice).
The ISO dial on your X-Pro 2 has no markings, have you noticed? How do you know what dial is for ISO, or what ISO you've chosen with no markings?
If you then turn your mode dial to A, what does the A stand for in that situation? What mode are you in? And what might change when you turn the EC dial?
As mentioned, I don't use that function, but it appears the camera stays in Aperture Priority with settable limits on ISO and min. Shutter speed.

What changes on your XPro 2 when you're in A mode and you change the EC dial?

Sal
 
On my XT3, I set the speed dial to A most of the time, EV dial to C always, the ISO to desired ISO ( I hardly use auto ISO)

The only time I use the speed dial is when I shoot long exposures (rarely these days)

So even though the dials look nice, only the ISO dial is of good and frequent use from my vantage point

Thus I 'm not a full blown user of the Fuji system and I don't care about the PASM system either

I'd rather have the custom banks at my disposition, at least 3 settings for different genres of photography set up, along with the ISO dial

The speed + EC dials can be optional for my needs and can be removed if cost saving is a priority ; their existence or lack of don't bother me a bit

(I'm mostly into birding so my needs may differ quite a bit from other shooters)
Why do you desire a photographer-set ISO value?

I speculate that your Raw conversion software works best at specific ISO settings?

Don't you need fast shutter speeds for birds in flight? Seems like the S dial would be needed.

The EV compensation C is a nice idea, which I just learned about.
 
I didn`t know Fuji has 2 Versions of the X-pro2 !

My X-pro2 has a marked ISO dial !



X-pro2 combined shutter and ISO
X-pro2 combined shutter and ISO
 
Fuji's control paradigm makes sense if you understand what the controls are doing. I don't think 'S' or 'A' - I just decide if the aperture ring can be left in auto, or the shutter speed dial can be left in auto. If I decide one or both needs controlled manually, I then move them manually.

However, if you don't understand what you're doing, the chances are you're going to use P mode. P mode is the one weakness of Fuji's system, as you need to turn two dials to get into it.

Having said that, I've heard recent Fuji cameras have a full auto mode. In my mind, that's even better. If you know what you're doing, turn the controls. If you don't (or are handing your camera to someone who doesn't) switch on auto.
P mode? Never actually used the P mode on any of my cameras, ever (in 25 years of photography). That's probably why many of us like Fuji's dials.
The dials are used to put the Fuji in P mode. P mode is still there, but can easily be ignored.
My post was tongue-in-cheek. I know you can set p mode on fuji dials. My point is I've never used it with fuji or any other camera with pasm.
 
There was a recent thread asking if you like the PSAM dial or not, but I didn't see many replies as to WHY. So I ask, what is your reason?
Often, out of convenience, I have the shutter in auto-mode. On my Leica and Fuji, it's easy to override, eg in challenging light or high contrast situations: I just turn the SS-dial.

On a PASM-based cam, I'd have to change the "mode" before I can change the SS-setting. Pretty clunky and really an unnecessary extra step. But hey, at least the photographer knows what "mode" he's in, great isn't it :-D
No, you would simply turn the EC dial on top.
I prefer the SS-dial. Besides, the EC-dial is limited (on most camera's 2-3 stops max) In fact, I would also like the SS-dial on the Fuji had the mechanical feedback (and intermediate stops) like the one on the M. Then again, every camera has its peculiarities and small annoyances (such as a PASM-dial ;-) :-D )
I'm guessing you haven't used Fuji's version of the PASM dial. It has a full 5 stops on the EC dial. The metal dial provides clear mechanical feedback across all intermediate stops. Very solid feeling.
I understand some people are used to PASM, and that's fine. But besides this familiarity for some, there's no actual practical advantage for it. On the contrary, it only adds unnecessary extra steps in order to change exposure settings. And yes I have a few PASM-dial based camera's, some of these I even like a lot, despite this dial ;-)
I'm still trying to understand what the extra steps are? ISO is a simple turn of the top dial. EC is a simple turn of the top dial. Aperture is on the lens ring as usual. Maybe other brands make the PASM dial more difficult to use? I don't know.

Sal
Can I be the one to point out that adjusting a shutter speed dial and adjusting an EC dial are two different things?
No, in Aperture priority (which is what I've been discussing here) the aperture is set manually and ISO is set manually. What changes when I adjust the EC dial?
That may be your strict definition of aperture priority but your own camera doesn’t agree with it.
That is the definition of Aperture priority.
No, the definition of aperture priority is to give priority to the aperture, which is what all these cameras do in A mode whether they’re in auto ISO or not; the aperture you set is the aperture that is used and everything else adjusts automatically around that. Including ISO, if that’s also set to auto.
As we already discovered in the other thread, on your XT100 you can use your ISO dial to select auto ISO (and hey, without the markings you might not even notice).
The ISO dial on your X-Pro 2 has no markings, have you noticed? How do you know what dial is for ISO, or what ISO you've chosen with no markings?
The ISO dial on the X-Pro2 is marked.
If you then turn your mode dial to A, what does the A stand for in that situation? What mode are you in? And what might change when you turn the EC dial?
As mentioned, I don't use that function, but it appears the camera stays in Aperture Priority with settable limits on ISO and min. Shutter speed.
So, just to be clear, the EC dial cannot be relied on to set the desired shutter speed in that instance. For that you need to take manual control of the shutter, which on the XT100 means first changing mode, then setting the shutter speed.
What changes on your XPro 2 when you're in A mode and you change the EC dial?
The exposure.
 
There was a recent thread asking if you like the PSAM dial or not, but I didn't see many replies as to WHY. So I ask, what is your reason?
Often, out of convenience, I have the shutter in auto-mode. On my Leica and Fuji, it's easy to override, eg in challenging light or high contrast situations: I just turn the SS-dial.

On a PASM-based cam, I'd have to change the "mode" before I can change the SS-setting. Pretty clunky and really an unnecessary extra step. But hey, at least the photographer knows what "mode" he's in, great isn't it :-D
No, you would simply turn the EC dial on top.
The EC dial is meant for telling the camera you want to bias its metering. If you are not shooting manual exposure you do not know exactly what it will do. Apart from that, Sjak says he's mainly shooting manual. That mans he would have to change his handling based on whether he is in M or Av (I guess he'll never be in P).
And yes, knowing what mode you're in is pretty basic.
Personally I think Leica got it right on the M, X, Q, S and SL-series, with a very prominent dedicated SS-dial, with very positive mechanical feedback, and also no other dial below it that one can accidentally mess up (like on the X-T1)
 
On my XT3, I set the speed dial to A most of the time, EV dial to C always, the ISO to desired ISO ( I hardly use auto ISO)

The only time I use the speed dial is when I shoot long exposures (rarely these days)

So even though the dials look nice, only the ISO dial is of good and frequent use from my vantage point

Thus I 'm not a full blown user of the Fuji system and I don't care about the PASM system either

I'd rather have the custom banks at my disposition, at least 3 settings for different genres of photography set up, along with the ISO dial

The speed + EC dials can be optional for my needs and can be removed if cost saving is a priority ; their existence or lack of don't bother me a bit

(I'm mostly into birding so my needs may differ quite a bit from other shooters)
Why do you desire a photographer-set ISO value?
This is my way to control the noise level + speed; with auto I'd never know what ISO the camera would choose, too high may not be too good, too low may cause blur
I speculate that your Raw conversion software works best at specific ISO settings?
Don't shoot RAF often these days for birds , JPGs are good enough since I tend to shoot thousands per outing, most would be discarded in favor of the best shots; only shoot RAW with landscapes + challenging light
Don't you need fast shutter speeds for birds in flight? Seems like the S dial would be needed.
Yes, and I use ISO for that and to some degree aperture (less so since the 100-400 + TC have rather slow aperture)
The EV compensation C is a nice idea, which I just learned about.
Nice idea but waste of real estate AFAIC but better than XH1 whereby you have to press +/- while adjusting with the wheel
 
There was a recent thread asking if you like the PSAM dial or not, but I didn't see many replies as to WHY. So I ask, what is your reason?
Often, out of convenience, I have the shutter in auto-mode. On my Leica and Fuji, it's easy to override, eg in challenging light or high contrast situations: I just turn the SS-dial.

On a PASM-based cam, I'd have to change the "mode" before I can change the SS-setting. Pretty clunky and really an unnecessary extra step. But hey, at least the photographer knows what "mode" he's in, great isn't it :-D
No, you would simply turn the EC dial on top.
I prefer the SS-dial. Besides, the EC-dial is limited (on most camera's 2-3 stops max) In fact, I would also like the SS-dial on the Fuji had the mechanical feedback (and intermediate stops) like the one on the M. Then again, every camera has its peculiarities and small annoyances (such as a PASM-dial ;-) :-D )
I'm guessing you haven't used Fuji's version of the PASM dial. It has a full 5 stops on the EC dial. The metal dial provides clear mechanical feedback across all intermediate stops. Very solid feeling.
I understand some people are used to PASM, and that's fine. But besides this familiarity for some, there's no actual practical advantage for it. On the contrary, it only adds unnecessary extra steps in order to change exposure settings. And yes I have a few PASM-dial based camera's, some of these I even like a lot, despite this dial ;-)
I'm still trying to understand what the extra steps are? ISO is a simple turn of the top dial. EC is a simple turn of the top dial. Aperture is on the lens ring as usual. Maybe other brands make the PASM dial more difficult to use? I don't know.

Sal
Can I be the one to point out that adjusting a shutter speed dial and adjusting an EC dial are two different things?
No, in Aperture priority (which is what I've been discussing here) the aperture is set manually and ISO is set manually. What changes when I adjust the EC dial?
That may be your strict definition of aperture priority but your own camera doesn’t agree with it.
That is the definition of Aperture priority.
No, the definition of aperture priority is to give priority to the aperture, which is what all these cameras do in A mode whether they’re in auto ISO or not; the aperture you set is the aperture that is used and everything else adjusts automatically around that. Including ISO, if that’s also set to auto.
That's what I said above.
As we already discovered in the other thread, on your XT100 you can use your ISO dial to select auto ISO (and hey, without the markings you might not even notice).
The ISO dial on your X-Pro 2 has no markings, have you noticed? How do you know what dial is for ISO, or what ISO you've chosen with no markings?
The ISO dial on the X-Pro2 is marked.
If you then turn your mode dial to A, what does the A stand for in that situation? What mode are you in? And what might change when you turn the EC dial?
As mentioned, I don't use that function, but it appears the camera stays in Aperture Priority with settable limits on ISO and min. Shutter speed.
So, just to be clear, the EC dial cannot be relied on to set the desired shutter speed in that instance. For that you need to take manual control of the shutter, which on the XT100 means first changing mode, then setting the shutter speed.
In aperture priority I don't expect to be manually setting the shutter speed. That's why it's called "aperture" "priority." EC allows slight variations to the set exposure. You're quite excited about minutia it seems.
What changes on your XPro 2 when you're in A mode and you change the EC dial?
The exposure.
Exactly.

Sal
 
I didn`t know Fuji has 2 Versions of the X-pro2 !

My X-pro2 has a marked ISO dial !

X-pro2 combined shutter and ISO
X-pro2 combined shutter and ISO
Sorry, I was thinking about the other non-PASM Fuji cameras (X-E2, X-T20, X-T30) that don't have marked ISO dials.

Sal
 
There was a recent thread asking if you like the PSAM dial or not, but I didn't see many replies as to WHY. So I ask, what is your reason?
Often, out of convenience, I have the shutter in auto-mode. On my Leica and Fuji, it's easy to override, eg in challenging light or high contrast situations: I just turn the SS-dial.

On a PASM-based cam, I'd have to change the "mode" before I can change the SS-setting. Pretty clunky and really an unnecessary extra step. But hey, at least the photographer knows what "mode" he's in, great isn't it :-D
No, you would simply turn the EC dial on top.
I prefer the SS-dial. Besides, the EC-dial is limited (on most camera's 2-3 stops max) In fact, I would also like the SS-dial on the Fuji had the mechanical feedback (and intermediate stops) like the one on the M. Then again, every camera has its peculiarities and small annoyances (such as a PASM-dial ;-) :-D )
I'm guessing you haven't used Fuji's version of the PASM dial. It has a full 5 stops on the EC dial. The metal dial provides clear mechanical feedback across all intermediate stops. Very solid feeling.
I understand some people are used to PASM, and that's fine. But besides this familiarity for some, there's no actual practical advantage for it. On the contrary, it only adds unnecessary extra steps in order to change exposure settings. And yes I have a few PASM-dial based camera's, some of these I even like a lot, despite this dial ;-)
I'm still trying to understand what the extra steps are? ISO is a simple turn of the top dial. EC is a simple turn of the top dial. Aperture is on the lens ring as usual. Maybe other brands make the PASM dial more difficult to use? I don't know.

Sal
Can I be the one to point out that adjusting a shutter speed dial and adjusting an EC dial are two different things?
No, in Aperture priority (which is what I've been discussing here) the aperture is set manually and ISO is set manually. What changes when I adjust the EC dial?
That may be your strict definition of aperture priority but your own camera doesn’t agree with it.
That is the definition of Aperture priority.
No, the definition of aperture priority is to give priority to the aperture, which is what all these cameras do in A mode whether they’re in auto ISO or not; the aperture you set is the aperture that is used and everything else adjusts automatically around that. Including ISO, if that’s also set to auto.
That's what I said above.
No, it isn’t. What you said is that “in aperture priority ... the ISO is set manually” and that doesn’t have to be the case at all. Which is why your EC answer to quickly setting a shutter speed without changing mode doesn’t work.
As we already discovered in the other thread, on your XT100 you can use your ISO dial to select auto ISO (and hey, without the markings you might not even notice).
The ISO dial on your X-Pro 2 has no markings, have you noticed? How do you know what dial is for ISO, or what ISO you've chosen with no markings?
The ISO dial on the X-Pro2 is marked.
If you then turn your mode dial to A, what does the A stand for in that situation? What mode are you in? And what might change when you turn the EC dial?
As mentioned, I don't use that function, but it appears the camera stays in Aperture Priority with settable limits on ISO and min. Shutter speed.
So, just to be clear, the EC dial cannot be relied on to set the desired shutter speed in that instance. For that you need to take manual control of the shutter, which on the XT100 means first changing mode, then setting the shutter speed.
In aperture priority I don't expect to be manually setting the shutter speed. That's why it's called "aperture" "priority." EC allows slight variations to the set exposure. You're quite excited about minutia it seems.
You replied to Sjak originally to say that, when he (not you) wanted to jump straight from aperture priority to a particular shutter speed on a PASM camera, he could just use the EC dial without changing mode. That isn’t always the case, and the truth is Sjak was right, and the Fuji system of shutter/aperture dials is better for him and quicker to work with in the situation he’s describing. Call clearing that up minutia if you will.
What changes on your XPro 2 when you're in A mode and you change the EC dial?
The exposure.
Exactly.
Which is different to shutter speed, thank you.
 
There was a recent thread asking if you like the PSAM dial or not, but I didn't see many replies as to WHY. So I ask, what is your reason?
Often, out of convenience, I have the shutter in auto-mode. On my Leica and Fuji, it's easy to override, eg in challenging light or high contrast situations: I just turn the SS-dial.

On a PASM-based cam, I'd have to change the "mode" before I can change the SS-setting. Pretty clunky and really an unnecessary extra step. But hey, at least the photographer knows what "mode" he's in, great isn't it :-D
No, you would simply turn the EC dial on top.
The EC dial is meant for telling the camera you want to bias its metering. If you are not shooting manual exposure you do not know exactly what it will do.
I mainly shoot in aperture priority. I know exactly what it does when I turn the EC dial. It changes the exposure up or down by x-amount by changing the shutter speed. Aperture and ISO stay where I set them. The EC amount and SS are displayed in the EVF and on the screen.

Cheers.

Sal
Apart from that, Sjak says he's mainly shooting manual. That mans he would have to change his handling based on whether he is in M or Av (I guess he'll never be in P).
And yes, knowing what mode you're in is pretty basic.
Personally I think Leica got it right on the M, X, Q, S and SL-series, with a very prominent dedicated SS-dial, with very positive mechanical feedback, and also no other dial below it that one can accidentally mess up (like on the X-T1)
 
There was a recent thread asking if you like the PSAM dial or not, but I didn't see many replies as to WHY. So I ask, what is your reason?
Often, out of convenience, I have the shutter in auto-mode. On my Leica and Fuji, it's easy to override, eg in challenging light or high contrast situations: I just turn the SS-dial.

On a PASM-based cam, I'd have to change the "mode" before I can change the SS-setting. Pretty clunky and really an unnecessary extra step. But hey, at least the photographer knows what "mode" he's in, great isn't it :-D
No, you would simply turn the EC dial on top.
I prefer the SS-dial. Besides, the EC-dial is limited (on most camera's 2-3 stops max) In fact, I would also like the SS-dial on the Fuji had the mechanical feedback (and intermediate stops) like the one on the M. Then again, every camera has its peculiarities and small annoyances (such as a PASM-dial ;-) :-D )
I'm guessing you haven't used Fuji's version of the PASM dial. It has a full 5 stops on the EC dial. The metal dial provides clear mechanical feedback across all intermediate stops. Very solid feeling.
I understand some people are used to PASM, and that's fine. But besides this familiarity for some, there's no actual practical advantage for it. On the contrary, it only adds unnecessary extra steps in order to change exposure settings. And yes I have a few PASM-dial based camera's, some of these I even like a lot, despite this dial ;-)
I'm still trying to understand what the extra steps are? ISO is a simple turn of the top dial. EC is a simple turn of the top dial. Aperture is on the lens ring as usual. Maybe other brands make the PASM dial more difficult to use? I don't know.

Sal
Can I be the one to point out that adjusting a shutter speed dial and adjusting an EC dial are two different things?
No, in Aperture priority (which is what I've been discussing here) the aperture is set manually and ISO is set manually. What changes when I adjust the EC dial?
That may be your strict definition of aperture priority but your own camera doesn’t agree with it.
That is the definition of Aperture priority.
No, the definition of aperture priority is to give priority to the aperture, which is what all these cameras do in A mode whether they’re in auto ISO or not; the aperture you set is the aperture that is used and everything else adjusts automatically around that. Including ISO, if that’s also set to auto.
That's what I said above.
No, it isn’t. What you said is that “in aperture priority ... the ISO is set manually” and that doesn’t have to be the case at all.
No, the camera is capable of all kinds of adjustments. But as I said dozens of times, I use aperture priority which means you set the aperture and ISO and the camera changes just one variable: the shutter speed. You can deviate from that basic mode all you want but it has nothing to do with mode changing.
Which is why your EC answer to quickly setting a shutter speed without changing mode doesn’t work.
It works fine, what are you talking about
As we already discovered in the other thread, on your XT100 you can use your ISO dial to select auto ISO (and hey, without the markings you might not even notice).
The ISO dial on your X-Pro 2 has no markings, have you noticed? How do you know what dial is for ISO, or what ISO you've chosen with no markings?
The ISO dial on the X-Pro2 is marked.
If you then turn your mode dial to A, what does the A stand for in that situation? What mode are you in? And what might change when you turn the EC dial?
As mentioned, I don't use that function, but it appears the camera stays in Aperture Priority with settable limits on ISO and min. Shutter speed.
So, just to be clear, the EC dial cannot be relied on to set the desired shutter speed in that instance. For that you need to take manual control of the shutter, which on the XT100 means first changing mode, then setting the shutter speed.
In aperture priority I don't expect to be manually setting the shutter speed. That's why it's called "aperture" "priority." EC allows slight variations to the set exposure. You're quite excited about minutia it seems.
You replied to Sjak originally to say that, when he (not you) wanted to jump straight from aperture priority to a particular shutter speed on a PASM camera, he could just use the EC dial without changing mode. That isn’t always the case, and the truth is Sjak was right, and the Fuji system of shutter/aperture dials is better for him and quicker to work with in the situation he’s describing. Call clearing that up minutia if you will.
It doesn't even rise to the level of minutia. You seem to think this is an argument that needs to be won when all we're talking talking about here is preferences. I have both non-PASM and PASM Fuji cameras. Using them almost daily has informed my opinion. How many Fuji PASM cameras have you used? Good luck with your quest.

Cheers.
What changes on your XPro 2 when you're in A mode and you change the EC dial?
The exposure.
Exactly.
Which is different to shutter speed, thank you.
Sal
 
Lack of PSAM is what attracted me to Fuji. I think of it as "me" priority. If I set an aperture, that's my priority - camera: you go do the rest, repeat for all permutations.

I actually wish Fuji or someone would implement auto-focus the same way; e.g., with no manual focus MODE. If I turn the ring, focus is where I put it, if I don't move it, the camera is in charge.
Canon has been doing exactly this with their focusing on EF lenses. Half press to autofocus, then manual override if needed. Doesn't Fuji have this option, I though it does.
 
Not all Fuji lenses have an aperture ring. Two of the kit lenses that came with my Fuji X cameras have not aperture ring. So without a PASM button it is very awkward to go from Aperture Priority to Program mode to Shutter priority.

That made me dislike my XT20 and sent me buying an XT100 even though I give up a bit of AF performance.
 
I just really appreciate that Fuji offers these physical dials for the exposure triangle, because I just like it. As others say I tend to think in terms of individual parameters and not modes. I think what I need to achieve a particular shot or to be best prepared for a possible opportunity: all auto?, certain DoF?, certain shutter speed to blur or prevent blur?, keep ISO low at any cost? This is how I tend to think, so for me PSAM or not PSAM is not faster or more efficient, but I like a dedicated dial for every parameter. As other people like dedicated buttons for something. I like that aperture went back to where it belongs on the lens and is not just on some no name faceless dial somewhere, I think it's well deserved, and I like that other manufacturers also put it there.

Come to think of it, I find this is purely an exercise in debate. I was shooting manual with dials, PASM with Canon then dials again. Makes no practical difference to me. One gets used to it after few days f shooting I would think, it's not rocket science. E.g., I want aperture, so I set to "A" and control aperture - two actions; or I set shutter dial to A and control aperture ring - two actions. Both can be done without taking eye off the viewfinder, let's be honest.

Now what I really disagree with is software override of the physical dials. Remember the sh!tstrom that Nikon got when they introduced just that on their Df? Yeah, I would not suggest that.
 

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