Equivalence is sooooo easy!

Lee Jay

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These equivalence debates are stupid - equivalence is trivial.

There are two primary defining characteristics of a lens-camera system - the angle of view the sensor sees and the size of the hole through which the sensor is looking, called the "aperture", not to be confused with the f-stop.

Most people don't easily think in terms of angle-of-view, instead preferring to combine two measurements - sensor size and lens focal length - to describe angle-of-view. That's fine, as it fully describes the angle-of-view (AOV = 2*arctan(sensor size/(focal length*2))).

Equivalence is just about comparing the results from two or more different lens-camera systems on an equal basis by holding these two parameters - angle-of-view and aperture - constant or comparing how different they are between the two systems.

Simple.

To keep these two parameters (angle-of-view and aperture) constant, you do exactly what you do when you add a teleconverter to an existing lens-camera system - multiply both the lens' focal length and f-stop by the teleconverter multiplication ratio. You do the same with cropping, either by reducing sensor size ("crop factor") or by cropping in post processing.

If you are multiplying one or the other but not both, you are doing it wrong. You have to do both or neither. If you only do one, you are changing either angle-of-view or aperture, which is not a fair comparison.

Note that we are not talking about exposure here, just about comparing the imaging results from two or more different lens-camera systems shooting in the same conditions with the same shutter period. Exposure (the multiplication of illuminance and time) can change between the systems, as long as aperture and shutter speed are held the same.
 
It is just geometry: how do some basic camera properties necessarily vary with size?

However, there are properties which do not necessarily vary with size.
 
Couldn't you make it even simpler? Just say that sensor A has double the area of sensor B, therefore gathers 2x the light. Everything else can be derived from that?
 
If you don't own both a FF and APS-C camera or you have no interest in proving why your FF camera is better, JUST IGNORE IT. How in the heck did people survive when FF digital didn't exist?
 
How in the heck did people survive when FF digital didn't exist?
They survived by using f/64 on their large format cameras.
 
Couldn't you make it even simpler? Just say that sensor A has double the area of sensor B, therefore gathers 2x the light. Everything else can be derived from that?
Exactly.
 
They survived by using f/64 on their large format cameras.
The original full frame!
8x10 inches large format? Pffft.

The_giant_camera.jpg


[source]

This camera had a negative 8x4-1/2 feet. It had a 5-1/2 foot focal length wide angle lens, and a 10 foot tele lens.

--
http://therefractedlight.blogspot.com
 
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Couldn't you make it even simpler? Just say that sensor A has double the area of sensor B, therefore gathers 2x the light. Everything else can be derived from that?
2x the total light, but not 2x the light on each pixel. Total light means nothing for the image that is captured. In other words, for a pixel in the middle, it does not matter how much light is captured out at the edges. It's no different than cropping in post, the total number of pixels might change, but it doesn't change the exposure of the pixels that are left.
 
Couldn't you make it even simpler? Just say that sensor A has double the area of sensor B, therefore gathers 2x the light. Everything else can be derived from that?
And as the light is spread over 2x the area, the illuminance remains the same.
 
Couldn't you make it even simpler? Just say that sensor A has double the area of sensor B, therefore gathers 2x the light. Everything else can be derived from that?
2x the total light, but not 2x the light on each pixel. Total light means nothing for the image that is captured. In other words, for a pixel in the middle, it does not matter how much light is captured out at the edges. It's no different than cropping in post, the total number of pixels might change, but it doesn't change the exposure of the pixels that are left.
But you can't crop in post and not expect a reduction in image quality.

Say you want to get a big print done for your lounge wall. Using one of your photos where you have heavily cropped will result in less quality of that print. Less resolution and more likely to see noise or artefacts. Ideally you have framed the photo carefully while taking it and no cropping is needed. This maximises sensor area and pixels that will go into the print.

Total light still matters for image quality.
 
Couldn't you make it even simpler? Just say that sensor A has double the area of sensor B, therefore gathers 2x the light. Everything else can be derived from that?
And as the light is spread over 2x the area, the illuminance remains the same.
Yes but the area still matters. It's why a FF camera can produce lower noise photos in low light than a smartphone. It has 50 times more sensor area.
 
Couldn't you make it even simpler? Just say that sensor A has double the area of sensor B, therefore gathers 2x the light. Everything else can be derived from that?
2x the total light, but not 2x the light on each pixel. Total light means nothing for the image that is captured.
Total light means everything for the image that's captured as far as signal-to-noise ratio goes. How you divide up that light is just a matter of resolution, not signal to noise ratio.
 
Couldn't you make it even simpler? Just say that sensor A has double the area of sensor B, therefore gathers 2x the light.
But it doesn't, unless the illuminance is the same, which means the f-stop is the same, which means the aperture is larger for the same angle of view.

Sensors don't gather light, optics do.
Everything else can be derived from that?
Everything can be derived from aperture and angle of view. Sensor size doesn't matter except in certain edge cases limited by sensor technology.
 
If you don't own both a FF and APS-C camera or you have no interest in proving why your FF camera is better, JUST IGNORE IT. How in the heck did people survive when FF digital didn't exist?
Yes, ignorance is always the easy way out. Not the most useful, but easiest.
 
Note that we are not talking about exposure here, just about comparing the imaging results from two or more different lens-camera systems shooting in the same conditions with the same shutter period. Exposure (the multiplication of illuminance and time) can change between the systems, as long as aperture and shutter speed are held the same.
Can you give an example or two of what you are talking about here..?

If you hold the physical aperture size constant across different focal lengths, then you will have different f/ratios.
 
Couldn't you make it even simpler? Just say that sensor A has double the area of sensor B, therefore gathers 2x the light.
But it doesn't, unless the illuminance is the same, which means the f-stop is the same, which means the aperture is larger for the same angle of view.

Sensors don't gather light, optics do.
Everything else can be derived from that?
Everything can be derived from aperture and angle of view. Sensor size doesn't matter except in certain edge cases limited by sensor technology.
When at the equivalent field of view/focal length and at the same f/ratio, sensor area and aperture light gathering area go hand in hand.

You only need to look at the differences in sensor area to know what the differences in aperture area will be.

Here's an example.

Take a FF Canon with a 85mm f/1.2 lens vs a APS-C Fuji and 56mm f/1.2 lens.

85 f/1.2 = 70.83mm aperture which has a light gathering area of 3940.61 square millimetres.

56 f/1.2 = 46.66mm aperture which has a light gathering area of 1710.37 square millimetres

So the FF 85mm lens has 2.3 times the light gathering area.

And 2.3 times is also exactly the difference in sensor area between FF and a Fuji APS-C camera.

See the table near the top of this page .
 
If you don't own both a FF and APS-C camera or you have no interest in proving why your FF camera is better, JUST IGNORE IT. How in the heck did people survive when FF digital didn't exist?
Yes, ignorance is always the easy way out. Not the most useful, but easiest.
I don’t need to know the science behind a sensor or lens to properly use a camera and quite honestly, neither do the great majority of photographers. There are a lot of things in this world that do not require you to know the science behind them to use them effectively.
 

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