m43 vs Canon EOS M

Loga

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Hi All,

Is here anyone who owns both system? I own m43 but with very old bodies, and I am thinking of upgrading. However, based on net samples I like the new EOS-M cams' rendering very much, while the samples from GX9 (the natural upgrade path for me) seemed not that convincing to me. So owners of both: could you please compare them from an image quality / rendering / OOC jpeg point of view?

Many thanks,

Loga


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kristwi wrote:🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Good support a dead system!

CONSUMERS will buy it but Canon will bring an APSC R Mount in the next 1-2 Years.
A conclusion based on absolutely no facts.

Canon financial document
Canon financial document
 

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OMG!! Just EIGHT lenses! How can one take a decent picture?
Well, one can't take a portrait at the classic portrait focal length if the lens doesn't exist. One can't use fast f2.8 zoom lenses to gather lots of light with zoom flexibility if these fast zoom lenses do not exist. One can't easily take close ups of bugs if longer macro lenses don't exist. Many can't afford to own a fast standard 50mm prime if a cheap version doesn't exist, etc etc.
That's right, if eight lenses not enough, one can use the vast collection of Canon lenses with an adapter. And even with an adapter, the size will be, in many cases, smaller than an equivalent MFT setup, so what's your point?
Please prove this to me by listing the "many cases" where old Canon lenses adapted to M format are smaller than the Micro 43 native options. Ideally, use camerasize.com top view to provide visual evidence. Thank you.

But this time, try not to cheat by putting a small Canon M camera against one of the biggest Micro 43 cameras. Try and keep it even handed and fair, OK?

And we are focusing the argument on small size here. Ignore equivalence of DOF because sometimes more DOF is an advantage, just as other times shallow DOF is preferable.

Also, I notice you had no answer to my listed evidence that Micro 43 offers at least FIVE TIMES more consumer choice at a given focal length (50mm equivalent) allowing users to select the attributes they need at several different price points, from beginner to professional vs Canon M's "Cough up £500 or you can't get a native nifty fifty" approach.

--
'Photography is not art. It's pressing buttons. People take it up because they can't draw.' Lord Snowdon
 
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You are right.

Canon EOS M is doing pretty well, especially in Asian markets and in Japan.

So Canon now has a marketing dilemma.

The EOS M mount and the EOS R mount are not compatible. Unlike the way Sony E/FE, Leica TL/SL, Canon EF/EF-S and Nikon FX/DX are fully interchangeable. At least in the way they can be used without adapters, going up from APSC to Full Frame.

So Canon now finds themselves in the same position as Panasonic, needing two separate mounts for two different sensor sizes. While Leica, Sony and Nikon can use the same mount for both. And there actually are rumors that Nikon will produce an APSC camera using their new Z mount.

So Canon must decide whether to scrap the pretty successful EOS M system and move their APSC MILC product to an EOS R mount. The would give their APSC MILC customers an easy upgrade path to full frame, and an incentive to buy full frame lenses for their APSC cameras. Which is exactly what they have been doing for years with EF and EF-S.

My guess is that EOS M is safe, and will stay exactly as it is today. While Canon might have preferred to have a single mount for both, it is too late for that now. The EOS M system is doing pretty well, and replacing it with yet another new system would cause too much ill will with their customers.

This is where Nikon has an advantage. Since they don't have an APSC MILC system, and never had one, they can start one any time they want to... using their newZ mount.
 
This is one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever read on dpreview.

Firstly, you say that the "Canon M series has a rather decent set of lenses" which is ludicrous because they only have eight lenses in total. This obviously leaves many holes in the Canon M line up, including the absence of even a single basic portrait lens.
OMG!! Just EIGHT lenses! How can one take a decent picture?
Frankly, the Canon M series only makes sense for someone who either A) will be content with very few lenses, or B) already has a lot of old Canon glass to adapt...and doesn't mind throwing away the mirrorless size advantage in the process.
That's right, if eight lenses not enough, one can use the vast collection of Canon lenses with an adapter. And even with an adapter, the size will be, in many cases, smaller than an equivalent MFT setup, so what's your point?
Look... if we want to include lenses that can be adapted, then M4/3 has "over three hundred lenses that can be used with an adapter."

And if you want to limit that to just lenses with full AF ability, then all 41 Four Thirds lenses fall into that category.
That's a bit of a stretch to compare the 43 lenses on m43 bodies to Canon EF lenses on EF-M bodies. Canon lenses adapt much better to EF-M than 43 lenses to m43, even if we're only talking about the E-M1/E-M1ii. I'd still have my 150 f/2 if this wasn't the case.
Look closely. That lens is a 35mm f/2.8 Canon EOS M lens, not the EF-S version. In BOTH cases native mount lenses were used without any adapters.

0c8ba0b877f84b3098986bbaffadc959.jpg

So... it really isn't a stretch at all.

It is just the way it is. Proof that I can cherry pick anything to make any point I want to make. Like Plagen did in his post above.

--
Marty
http://www.fluidr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132/show/
my blog: http://marty4650.blogspot.com/
 
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This is one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever read on dpreview.

Firstly, you say that the "Canon M series has a rather decent set of lenses" which is ludicrous because they only have eight lenses in total. This obviously leaves many holes in the Canon M line up, including the absence of even a single basic portrait lens.
OMG!! Just EIGHT lenses! How can one take a decent picture?
Frankly, the Canon M series only makes sense for someone who either A) will be content with very few lenses, or B) already has a lot of old Canon glass to adapt...and doesn't mind throwing away the mirrorless size advantage in the process.
That's right, if eight lenses not enough, one can use the vast collection of Canon lenses with an adapter. And even with an adapter, the size will be, in many cases, smaller than an equivalent MFT setup, so what's your point?
Look... if we want to include lenses that can be adapted, then M4/3 has "over three hundred lenses that can be used with an adapter."

And if you want to limit that to just lenses with full AF ability, then all 41 Four Thirds lenses fall into that category.
That's a bit of a stretch to compare the 43 lenses on m43 bodies to Canon EF lenses on EF-M bodies. Canon lenses adapt much better to EF-M than 43 lenses to m43, even if we're only talking about the E-M1/E-M1ii. I'd still have my 150 f/2 if this wasn't the case.
Look closely. That lens is a 35mm f/2.8 Canon EOS M lens, not the EF-S version. In BOTH cases native mount lenses were used without any adapters.
What point are you responding to here? I'm talking about your claim that adapted 43 lenses are similar to adapted EF lenses which is just not the case.
0c8ba0b877f84b3098986bbaffadc959.jpg

So... it really isn't a stretch at all.

It is just the way it is. Proof that I can cherry pick anything to make any point I want to make. Like Plagen did in his post above.
You comparing a zoom lens to a pancake prime is a far more ridiculous comparison than comparing the 25 1.2 to the 32 1.4. The 25 1.2 is the lens that produces the image closest to the Canon 32 1.4, isn't that what actually matters in the end or do you care more about what numbers are displayed in the EVF?
 
0c8ba0b877f84b3098986bbaffadc959.jpg

So... it really isn't a stretch at all.

It is just the way it is. Proof that I can cherry pick anything to make any point I want to make. Like Plagen did in his post above.
You comparing a zoom lens to a pancake prime is a far more ridiculous comparison than comparing the 25 1.2 to the 32 1.4. The 25 1.2 is the lens that produces the image closest to the Canon 32 1.4, isn't that what actually matters in the end or do you care more about what numbers are displayed in the EVF?
Huh? He's comparing a prime to a prime. The 28mm f/3.5 for EOS-M to the 20mm f/1.7 for MFT. It's very easy to pick examples where MFT wins in size because there's so much choice.

EOS-M only has a couple of choices in native lenses (part of the reason why I never seriously considered it). For example, there are 3 pancake zooms for MFT: the 12-32mm (I'm using), 14-42 EZ, 14-42 PZ. There are none for EOS-M, so it would lose a zoom size comparison too. EOS-M mainly makes sense if you are a Canon user and already have existing EF or EF-S lenses, but otherwise there's plenty of other better choices (even in APS-C).
 
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This is one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever read on dpreview.

Firstly, you say that the "Canon M series has a rather decent set of lenses" which is ludicrous because they only have eight lenses in total. This obviously leaves many holes in the Canon M line up, including the absence of even a single basic portrait lens.
OMG!! Just EIGHT lenses! How can one take a decent picture?
Frankly, the Canon M series only makes sense for someone who either A) will be content with very few lenses, or B) already has a lot of old Canon glass to adapt...and doesn't mind throwing away the mirrorless size advantage in the process.
That's right, if eight lenses not enough, one can use the vast collection of Canon lenses with an adapter. And even with an adapter, the size will be, in many cases, smaller than an equivalent MFT setup, so what's your point?
Look... if we want to include lenses that can be adapted, then M4/3 has "over three hundred lenses that can be used with an adapter."

And if you want to limit that to just lenses with full AF ability, then all 41 Four Thirds lenses fall into that category.
That's a bit of a stretch to compare the 43 lenses on m43 bodies to Canon EF lenses on EF-M bodies. Canon lenses adapt much better to EF-M than 43 lenses to m43, even if we're only talking about the E-M1/E-M1ii. I'd still have my 150 f/2 if this wasn't the case.
Look closely. That lens is a 35mm f/2.8 Canon EOS M lens, not the EF-S version. In BOTH cases native mount lenses were used without any adapters.
What point are you responding to here? I'm talking about your claim that adapted 43 lenses are similar to adapted EF lenses which is just not the case.
0c8ba0b877f84b3098986bbaffadc959.jpg

So... it really isn't a stretch at all.

It is just the way it is. Proof that I can cherry pick anything to make any point I want to make. Like Plagen did in his post above.
You comparing a zoom lens to a pancake prime is a far more ridiculous comparison than comparing the 25 1.2 to the 32 1.4.
I don't see any zoom lenses in the image above. I see two prime lenses. A Canon 35mm lens and a Panasonic 20mm lens. Due to their crop factors, BOTH lenses are equivalent to around 40mm in FF terms.

But there was one mistake I made. The Canon lens works out to 44.8mm and not 40mm.

It is tough finding COMPLETELY equivalent lenses when one system only has 8 different lenses and the other has 75 of them.
The 25 1.2 is the lens that produces the image closest to the Canon 32 1.4, isn't that what actually matters in the end or do you care more about what numbers are displayed in the EVF?
Are you saying the two lenses I picked for my own "cherry picking" won't produce very similar images? Because they will. And if you want to talk about effective aperture, then the Panasonic lens is faster.



--
Marty
my blog: http://marty4650.blogspot.com/
 
0c8ba0b877f84b3098986bbaffadc959.jpg

So... it really isn't a stretch at all.

It is just the way it is. Proof that I can cherry pick anything to make any point I want to make. Like Plagen did in his post above.
You comparing a zoom lens to a pancake prime is a far more ridiculous comparison than comparing the 25 1.2 to the 32 1.4. The 25 1.2 is the lens that produces the image closest to the Canon 32 1.4, isn't that what actually matters in the end or do you care more about what numbers are displayed in the EVF?
Huh? He's comparing a prime to a prime. The 28mm f/3.5 for EOS-M to the 20mm f/1.7 for MFT. It's very easy to pick examples where MFT wins in size because there's so much choice.
Ah, my bad, I thought that was the 15-45 he was using and just pulling out a single focal length. I hadn't seen any product shots of that lens before without the built in ring light extended.
EOS-M only has a couple of choices in native lenses (part of the reason why I never seriously considered it). For example, there are 3 pancake zooms for MFT: the 12-32mm (I'm using), 14-42 EZ, 14-42 PZ. There are none for EOS-M, so it would lose a zoom size comparison too. EOS-M mainly makes sense if you are a Canon user and already have existing EF or EF-S lenses, but otherwise there's plenty of other better choices (even in APS-C).
I mostly agree, although the 11-22 is a fantastic lens and I could definitely see people grabbing an EOS-M body just for that lens. The Olympus equivalent is much more expensive and a mediocre performer; I would love to see Olympus release an updated version with weather sealing, updated optics, and better build quality to go alongside the 7-14. That new 32 1.4 looks excellent though I won't be selling my 25 Pro for it anytime soon.
 
You comparing a zoom lens to a pancake prime is a far more ridiculous comparison than comparing the 25 1.2 to the 32 1.4.
I don't see any zoom lenses in the image above. I see two prime lenses. A Canon 35mm lens and a Panasonic 20mm lens. Due to their crop factors, BOTH lenses are equivalent to around 40mm in FF terms.

But there was one mistake I made. The Canon lens works out to 44.8mm and not 40mm.

It is tough finding COMPLETELY equivalent lenses when one system only has 8 different lenses and the other has 75 of them.
You're correct, I mistook it for the 15-45 which looks pretty much identical and I'd only ever seen the macro with the built in ring light extended.
The 25 1.2 is the lens that produces the image closest to the Canon 32 1.4, isn't that what actually matters in the end or do you care more about what numbers are displayed in the EVF?
Are you saying the two lenses I picked for my own "cherry picking" won't produce very similar images? Because they will. And if you want to talk about effective aperture, then the Panasonic lens is faster.
Those lenses will indeed produce more or less equivalent images (although the 20mm is effectively 1.3 stops faster) and aside from the 20 1.7 being a poor macro lens, =), is a valid comparison.
 
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0c8ba0b877f84b3098986bbaffadc959.jpg

So... it really isn't a stretch at all.

It is just the way it is. Proof that I can cherry pick anything to make any point I want to make. Like Plagen did in his post above.
You comparing a zoom lens to a pancake prime is a far more ridiculous comparison than comparing the 25 1.2 to the 32 1.4. The 25 1.2 is the lens that produces the image closest to the Canon 32 1.4, isn't that what actually matters in the end or do you care more about what numbers are displayed in the EVF?
Huh? He's comparing a prime to a prime. The 28mm f/3.5 for EOS-M to the 20mm f/1.7 for MFT. It's very easy to pick examples where MFT wins in size because there's so much choice.

EOS-M only has a couple of choices in native lenses (part of the reason why I never seriously considered it). For example, there are 3 pancake zooms for MFT: the 12-32mm (I'm using), 14-42 EZ, 14-42 PZ. There are none for EOS-M, so it would lose a zoom size comparison too. EOS-M mainly makes sense if you are a Canon user and already have existing EF or EF-S lenses, but otherwise there's plenty of other better choices (even in APS-C).
Jake... in addition to the three pancake zoom lenses you mentioned,
  • Panasonic 12-32mm f/3.5-5.6
  • Panasonic 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6 PZ
  • Olympus 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6 EZ
...there are also three more pancake prime lenses,
  • Panasonic 14mm f/2.5
  • Panasonic 20mm f/1.7
  • Olympus 17mm f/2.8
making it a total of six pancake lenses! But you are right about there only being three pancake zoom lenses. I don't believe there is any other system with this many pancake lenses.

--
Marty
my blog: http://marty4650.blogspot.com/
 
making it a total of six pancake lenses! But you are right about there only being three pancake zoom lenses. I don't believe there is any other system with this many pancake lenses.
You're correct, I believe Pentax would be the closest as they have 5 pancake prime lenses. Nikon has 5 as well but spread across the Nikon 1 and FX.
 
Ignore equivalence of DOF because sometimes more DOF is an advantage, just as other times shallow DOF is preferable.
It tells me everything I need to know. I should've known better...
You are aware that a given aperture on either Micro 43 or on APS-C acts in the same way for light gathering power, aren't you?

That, say, an f1.8 or f2.8 lens on both Micro 43 and APS-C will allow the photograph to be taken at exactly the same aperture, shutter speed and ISO combination?

Please Plagen, do not refuse to back up your bold claim that comparing adapted lenses on Canon M "the size will be, in many cases, smaller than an equivalent MFT setup their native lenses"...

...because I am genuinely interested to see if this can be possible. We know you are experienced in using camerasize.com to post comparative images.

So please, use it prove what you are claiming, if you can.

We would all like to see the evidence of these "many cases" of adapted Canon M being smaller than native Micro 43.

Thank you.

--
'Photography is not art. It's pressing buttons. People take it up because they can't draw.' Lord Snowdon
 
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The 25 1.2 is the lens that produces the image closest to the Canon 32 1.4, isn't that what actually matters in the end or do you care more about what numbers are displayed in the EVF?
Are you saying the two lenses I picked for my own "cherry picking" won't produce very similar images? Because they will. And if you want to talk about effective aperture, then the Panasonic lens is faster.
Also, if we want to make a more meaningful comparison it would be the one below.

860bd05582f74d1e85bd7b864bcf3edb.jpg.png
 
OMG!! Just EIGHT lenses! How can one take a decent picture?
Well, one can't take a portrait at the classic portrait focal length if the lens doesn't exist. One can't use fast f2.8 zoom lenses to gather lots of light with zoom flexibility if these fast zoom lenses do not exist. One can't easily take close ups of bugs if longer macro lenses don't exist. Many can't afford to own a fast standard 50mm prime if a cheap version doesn't exist, etc etc.
That's right, if eight lenses not enough, one can use the vast collection of Canon lenses with an adapter. And even with an adapter, the size will be, in many cases, smaller than an equivalent MFT setup, so what's your point?
Please prove this to me by listing the "many cases" where old Canon lenses adapted to M format are smaller than the Micro 43 native options. Ideally, use camerasize.com top view to provide visual evidence. Thank you.

But this time, try not to cheat by putting a small Canon M camera against one of the biggest Micro 43 cameras. Try and keep it even handed and fair, OK?

And we are focusing the argument on small size here. Ignore equivalence of DOF because sometimes more DOF is an advantage, just as other times shallow DOF is preferable.

Also, I notice you had no answer to my listed evidence that Micro 43 offers at least FIVE TIMES more consumer choice at a given focal length (50mm equivalent) allowing users to select the attributes they need at several different price points, from beginner to professional vs Canon M's "Cough up £500 or you can't get a native nifty fifty" approach.
There is no doubt at all, that M43 has an excellent set of lenses, with many many choices. If you want to have a lot of freedom, don't know what you'll need etc., then M43 is hard to beat. Same is true for body features.

I am an M43 fan, shoot it myself.



But, if you DO know which lenses you need, and they have them, the EOS M50 is a nice camera. And don't forget, a lot of people have only a couple of lenses. I bought into the Canon system, because I wanted a relatively small body (smaller than G85), wanted a mic-input and an increase IQ if I would buy a new body. Panasonic didn't have it. Gx9: no mic-input. G9 excellent camera, but too big and too expensive.

- M has several nice lenses, like the 11-22 UWA Zoom, 22mm F2 prime (35 mm eq), 32mm F1.4 (51mm eq), and enough consumer zooms (15-45. 18-55, 18-150, 55-200).

- The VERY cheap EF 50/1.8 is a good portrait lens, costs about 129$. Even with adapter, it is not big. So the cheap portrait option is there, and with shallower DOF than M43 too.

- I can add e.g. the 85/1.8 for even shallower DOF, or buy the 50/1.4. All of which are very reasonably priced.

A set of 11-22, 22mm, 32mm and 18-150 comes at a very, very good price. Try that in Fuji or Sony. And, provides a pretty good travel setup, which I think most people will agree with.

- IQ, even from the cheap M50 body, is better than M43. No, it is not very significant, but it is higher resolution (compared to shooting in 3:2 on my GX80 quite a big difference) and high iso's are slightly better too.

- video tracking is outstanding.

If they have the lenses you want, it is a fine system, although in many ways my M43 camera is better. But cameras are always, always a compromise.

If you want fast zooms, 2.8 or faster, then it gets large quickly. EF-S 17-55/F2.8, or the Sigma 18-35/1.8 or 50-100/1.8 are all excellent, but heavy. There, I think M43 wins, although DOF will not be as shallow for those who like that.
 
Also, if we want to make a more meaningful comparison it would be the one below.

860bd05582f74d1e85bd7b864bcf3edb.jpg.png
True, and a key point overlooked by Plagen is that with Canon M, you have no choice but to pay £500 to get that one existing 50mm equivalent lens.

Whereas with Micro 43 you have at least FIVE choices to suit all needs and all budgets:

You can pay as little as £117 to get a good, fast 50mm equivalent (the f1.7).

Or if you want to go smaller (and still £200 cheaper than the Canon) you can choose the f1.8

Or if you are feeling flush and want fully professional level and weatherproofed you can choose the f1.2

Or if you want super fast you can choose the f0.95...there are just so many good choices in M43.

ALL of these lenses are excellent for their purposes within their respective classes.

I really don't want to come across as anti-Canon because I'm honestly not. My first digital camera was a Canon and I loved it!

I know that if Canon really went for it, they could make the M system into a world beater. But so far, they have been very half-hearted about developing the M system. And who knows if this half-heartedness will continue into the future?

At least with Micro 43 we know that just about every native lenses we could ever want is available right now for purchase.

--
'Photography is not art. It's pressing buttons. People take it up because they can't draw.' Lord Snowdon
 
EOS-M only has a couple of choices in native lenses (part of the reason why I never seriously considered it). For example, there are 3 pancake zooms for MFT: the 12-32mm (I'm using), 14-42 EZ, 14-42 PZ. There are none for EOS-M, so it would lose a zoom size comparison too. EOS-M mainly makes sense if you are a Canon user and already have existing EF or EF-S lenses, but otherwise there's plenty of other better choices (even in APS-C).
I mostly agree, although the 11-22 is a fantastic lens and I could definitely see people grabbing an EOS-M body just for that lens. The Olympus equivalent is much more expensive and a mediocre performer; I would love to see Olympus release an updated version with weather sealing, updated optics, and better build quality to go alongside the 7-14. That new 32 1.4 looks excellent though I won't be selling my 25 Pro for it anytime soon.
I think UWA will probably always remain a weak point for MFT (esp. in terms of value, although there is a decent selection if price is no object). My impression is that well corrected UWA lenses get harder/more expensive to make based on focal length and the smaller image circle probably doesn't help much.
 
I think UWA will probably always remain a weak point for MFT (esp. in terms of value, although there is a decent selection if price is no object). My impression is that well corrected UWA lenses get harder/more expensive to make based on focal length and the smaller image circle probably doesn't help much.
Just in case certain parties think I cannot be objective and give credit where it is due...I fully agree that currently, Canon M (and Canon and Nikon APS-C generally) offers much better prices for an entry level ultra wide zoom lens.

This is something of an exception go the rule; a rare Micro 43 weak point. Normally, Micro 43 offers the cheaper deal at most any other focal length. (Hell, normally M43 offers prime focal length options that Canon and Nikon APS-C do not offer at all!)

I still hold out hope that maybe Panasonic or someone will deliver a small, more affordable ultra wide M43 lens...but so far it does not exist.

The Olympus 9-18mm ultra wide is tiny and light, and a good little lens (my copy is sharp enough, even wide open in the corners) but it is expensive new, compared to Canon.

I solved the problem by buying a used, mint, and guaranteed copy of the Olympus 9-18mm for £225.

--
'Photography is not art. It's pressing buttons. People take it up because they can't draw.' Lord Snowdon
 
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I think it's fair to say that an an ultra wide is something of a specialist lens.

It is worse to be restricted to an expensive standard 'nifty fifty' prime lens, as with Canon M. The only native Canon M 50mm equivalent will cost you £500. That's quite a chunk of change for a beginner.

Not everyone will need an ultra wide lens...but every photographer should be able to afford access to a fast 50mm equivalent prime lens.

Micro 43 has the Panasonic f1.7 for £150, sometimes it is on sale for just £117.

--
'Photography is not art. It's pressing buttons. People take it up because they can't draw.' Lord Snowdon
 
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