EOS R, who is it for?

For me.

For last 10 years or so I have mainly used 5D series cameras. I love(ed) them. For travel I carried 2 cameras (usually 2 DSLRs) and few lenses. Lately I was looking for a much lighter set up for travel. I considered, P&S, superzoom and mirrorless. After much consideration I went for 800D and 18-135. I really liked this combo.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4320450

For any given ISO there was a bit more noise compared to 5DIV, but this was expected.

Why EOS R?

Similar IQ as 5DIV which I really like, but lighter. I can carry 1 or 2 light EF-S lenses for travel. I can combine these with 50/1.8 and RF 35/1.8 if I want. I can always use my L lenses. But for safari or action I will use 5D IV.

I am sure many has similar considerations.

6D was mainly targeted for those who wanted to upgrade from APSC to FF and for those who wanted to use it as a back up or travel camera. It was also targeted for vloggers. EOS R would be a better option for them, especially when price comes down.

It is targeted for those Canon users who want to take advantage of mirrorless EVF, but don't want to buy new lenses yet.

It is targeted for those who has extra money and want to use 50/1.2 or 28-70/2.

It is targeted for those who want Canon color in a FF mirrorless.

It is targeted for those who want mirrorless FF and is loyal to Canon for all sorts of reasons.

It will be interesting to see how well it sells. Camera market as a whole is not doing that great. FF cameras sell even less. Difficult time for camera makers.

For years I have been looking for the right, one body, solution for me. I was very happy with the 5D series. Always I bit of a disappointment when Canon did not release all what was expected. The 5D2 was a nasty beast. Light leak issue, moisture ingress and metering issues which only got fix a year after its appearance in March 2012 when i got my first of 3 bodies. Happily I can say it was always replaced without big issue. The biggest issue for me on the 5D3, was the times when I was travelling. I was travelling a lot in 2013 to 2017. About 200'000 to 500'000 miles in the plane.I know use the Oly EM1.2 which has a nice size for traveling. Unfortunately for an airshow, wedding and model shooting which I do too, it is way to slow and AF-C still leaves room for improvement. Some people commented my nude shoots "pixel pu..y". Because the ISO1600 had quite a bit of ISO noise.

Looking at the EOR r, here my thinking.

• It is a tiny bit larger than my EM1.2, but still smaller as a 5D3
  http://j.mp/2MJBpvI
• It has a fully articulated screen which i always missed on the 5D
• It has a very good ISO performance
• It has silent shooting. 5D3 is not completely silent
• It has an EVF, which I love for focus peaking and to see exposure
• It has the much better EVF than what I have had so far
• It has a way better Servo (AF-C) mode
• It does 4k for small clips from my kids
• It has weather sealing
• It has UHS-I and UHS II support and no 45Mb/sec limit
• It has better out of focus rendering than my EM1.2 at F2.8

I have been comfortable with EVF for years. I will not complain about having to take more batteries with me. I carried 6 with the A7 series and I carry 4 with the EM1.2.

I had good success on panning shots at airshows with the 5D2 already, no worries about the 5.5fps in servo mode with the EOS r

I was looking at the Z6 too. What kept me back?

• XQD. I was on a bird island in Norway last year during a downpour. I shot 6000 shots on this boat in full rain during 1.5 hrs. I was wet including underwear and by no means there was a way to change the cards. I have 256 GB SD card. Look at the price tag for XQD
• Flip screen. What I always hated about the A7, Nikon did
• The ugly adapter. Ouch. Looks like my old LA-E4 for the A7.

A word on IBIS. I got IBIS in my EM1.2. And of course the Olympus IBIS is probably by far the best on the market. No go out and shoot an airshow, where the F-18 flies at high speed and does high maneuvers. The IS constantly tries to fix the inconsistent movement when the plane pulls and and goes down again. Result. More unusable pictures than it would help. IS is OFF for the duration of the airshow unless doing panning shots at 1/80sec.

I will get my EOS r beginning next month and my 5D3 will be retired.

Cheers

Martin

--
http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/1125341

Martin Muehlemann said:

For years I have been looking for the right, one body, solution for me. I was very happy with the 5D series. Always I bit of a disappointment when Canon did not release all what was expected. The 5D2 was a nasty beast. Light leak issue, moisture ingress and metering issues which only got fix a year after its appearance in March 2012 when i got my first of 3 bodies. Happily I can say it was always replaced without big issue. The biggest issue for me on the 5D3, was the times when I was travelling. I was travelling a lot in 2013 to 2017. About 200'000 to 500'000 miles in the plane.I know use the Oly EM1.2 which has a nice size for traveling. Unfortunately for an airshow, wedding and model shooting which I do too, it is way to slow and AF-C still leaves room for improvement. Some people commented my nude shoots "pixel pu..y". Because the ISO1600 had quite a bit of ISO noise.

Looking at the EOR r, here my thinking.

• It is a tiny bit larger than my EM1.2, but still smaller as a 5D3
  http://j.mp/2MJBpvI
• It has a fully articulated screen which i always missed on the 5D
• It has a very good ISO performance
• It has silent shooting. 5D3 is not completely silent
• It has an EVF, which I love for focus peaking and to see exposure
• It has the much better EVF than what I have had so far
• It has a way better Servo (AF-C) mode
• It does 4k for small clips from my kids
• It has weather sealing
• It has UHS-I and UHS II support and no 45Mb/sec limit
• It has better out of focus rendering than my EM1.2 at F2.8

I have been comfortable with EVF for years. I will not complain about having to take more batteries with me. I carried 6 with the A7 series and I carry 4 with the EM1.2.

I had good success on panning shots at airshows with the 5D2 already, no worries about the 5.5fps in servo mode with the EOS r

I was looking at the Z6 too. What kept me back?

• XQD. I was on a bird island in Norway last year during a downpour. I shot 6000 shots on this boat in full rain during 1.5 hrs. I was wet including underwear and by no means there was a way to change the cards. I have 256 GB SD card. Look at the price tag for XQD
• Flip screen. What I always hated about the A7, Nikon did
• The ugly adapter. Ouch. Looks like my old LA-E4 for the A7.

A word on IBIS. I got IBIS in my EM1.2. And of course the Olympus IBIS is probably by far the best on the market. No go out and shoot an airshow, where the F-18 flies at high speed and does high maneuvers. The IS constantly tries to fix the inconsistent movement when the plane pulls and and goes down again. Result. More unusable pictures than it would help. IS is OFF for the duration of the airshow unless doing panning shots at 1/80sec.

I will get my EOS r beginning next month and my 5D3 will be retired.

Cheers

Martin

Click to expand...

Checked out the 256GB XQD cards. You are right, $450+ for each one and $200+ for a 128GB. About like buying a tag for a new vehicle so need to budget it in.

STR54 said:

Checked out the 256GB XQD cards. You are right, $450+ for each one and $200+ for a 128GB. About like buying a tag for a new vehicle so need to budget it in.

Click to expand...

I have to buy it in my Swiss market price

It costs 575 CHF which translates into 598 USD ;-), for one of it!

The EOS R is part of a very clever statement from Canon. The EOS R gives a statement about slowly migration from the high-end and pro DSLR segment to MLs at a pace aligned with technology development, customers and Canon. Canon deliberately didn’t address the pro market with the first iteration of the EOS R family. Instead Canon addresses the 6D segment with an attractive R series body. The 6D segment has been screaming loudest for MLs for a while and Canon will cleverly use their experiences before Canon moves into the more sensitive pro and high-end enthusiast segments. Canon’s new lenses from the same announcement gave some other statement: Canon is committed to the M-series for small, lightweight and cheaper cameras. Canon is committed to EF at least for some years to come with no-loss adapters for the EOS R series. Canon will and can compete with the new kid in town at very high-end pro lenses as their new 400mm f/2.8L is lighter than the new competition and they offer an unmatched 600mm f/4 at the same time. Canon will utilize their new RF platforms capability to provide very specialized high-end RF lenses that reaches further into the future than this first EOS R.

We can choose to get our feet wet now with the EOS R or we can wait for the next generation or next-next generation EOS R cameras before we move on. I don’t get the screamers, who announce they will move to the competition because one or two features of this first EOS R don’t match the competition. Most cameras are very good these days, but the lenses have much more impact on IQ than cameras in most cases. I guess a good lens will outlast 3 or 4 generations of bodies. The EOS R is the very first camera from a new platform – not the very last. One of my local gurus can’t afford my equipment so he uses cheap, second hand equipment. Yet, I can’t reach he’s knees at the artistic level though I am probably able to make sharper photos. The camera is a tool, the photographer is the artist or (in my case) just a photographer.

Ernest Hemingway to Irving Penn: “Your photos are really good. What camera do you use?”

Irving Penn to Ernest Hemingway: “Your novels are excellent. What typewriter do you use?”

aftab said:

It will be interesting to see how well it sells. Camera market as a whole is not doing that great. FF cameras sell even less. Difficult time for camera makers.

Click to expand...

Yes, in spite of the D850, Z6, and Z7, Nikon's last forecast for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2019 was for a decrease in ILC unit sales and no increase in ILC market share.

The "star" of Canon's last financial report was the affordable M50.

...professional camera. So they are targeting the enthusiast market. People at Canon have also said the R is meant for those who have been looking for a mirrorless FF from Canon. So it would seem it's meant to respond to the enthusiasts thinking about switching to Sony.

From my point of view, this camera is ideal for Canon APS-C users who are looking to go FF; people who have several EF-S lenses but few if any EF lenses. Those people can keep using their EF-S lenses (something they couldn't do with a FF DSLR) while they begin purchasing RF lenses.

My $0.02.

The EOS R is for those who want the next generation of superior optics.

Sounds ideal for you! I think you'll enjoy it!

Silvex said:

...professional camera. So they are targeting the enthusiast market. People at Canon have also said the R is meant for those who have been looking for a mirrorless FF from Canon. So it would seem it's meant to respond to the enthusiasts thinking about switching to Sony.

Click to expand...

This, I think, is the main reason they've decided to enter the FF MILC market. And honestly, I'm not sure it really matters what the reason is as long as the result is the same (customers benefiting).

Silvex said:

From my point of view, this camera is ideal for Canon APS-C users who are looking to go FF; people who have several EF-S lenses but few if any EF lenses. Those people can keep using their EF-S lenses (something they couldn't do with a FF DSLR) while they begin purchasing RF lenses.

Click to expand...

On the surface, it seems that's not a bad target market. But, 13-ish mp images out of low-to-medium end EF-S glass probably isn't the best way to make a customers jaw drop after they spent 2300 bucks on the camera. Also, these are people who, more than likely (but not necessarily) have avoided FF due to the cost of the lenses. And if not cost, then quite possibly the size/weight. Canon certainly did NOT provide these cost-conscious consumers who are likely used to using zooms primarily, an inexpensive path into native RF lenses.

Personally, I think this camera is targeted towards anyone who is interested in FF mirrorless and has more reasons to shoot with Canon than some other brand.

Ultimately, I think the INTENT (not the target market, the intent) of this camera is to signal to Canon users that they should stay with Canon (as you mentioned above). I honestly don't think Canon really cares if this camera sits on the shelves. It's job is already done. Canon has signaled to it's gargantuan user base that it intends to service the lower end of the FF MILC market (ie, the body, 35mm, and kit zoom) as well as the upper end (50/1.2 and 28-70/2). So, unless a Canon user was already at their breaking point and Canon didn't satisfy their needs/wants on the night of the announcement, Canon folks are staying put - even if it'll be 3-4 years before what they actually want is available.

The intent of this announcement was to be the biological equivalent of a scab. It stops the bleeding fairly quickly, only failing and letting out a little more blood occasionally. It's going to protect the body, as well. And, depending on the perspective of the viewer, it's either horrendously ugly or a badge of honor. But, both will acknowledge the necessity.

Silvex said:

...professional camera. So they are targeting the enthusiast market. People at Canon have also said the R is meant for those who have been looking for a mirrorless FF from Canon. So it would seem it's meant to respond to the enthusiasts thinking about switching to Sony.

From my point of view, this camera is ideal for Canon APS-C users who are looking to go FF; people who have several EF-S lenses but few if any EF lenses. Those people can keep using their EF-S lenses (something they couldn't do with a FF DSLR) while they begin purchasing RF lenses.

My $0.02.

Click to expand...

It's not only that

The R introduce 2 of the best Canon lenses ever : the 50 1,2 RL and the 28-70 2 RL. They are very expansive and are perhaps the best 50 mm ultraluminous prime and the best trans standart zoom of the market.

Jonathan Brady said:

Silvex said:

...professional camera. So they are targeting the enthusiast market. People at Canon have also said the R is meant for those who have been looking for a mirrorless FF from Canon. So it would seem it's meant to respond to the enthusiasts thinking about switching to Sony.

Click to expand...

This, I think, is the main reason they've decided to enter the FF MILC market. And honestly, I'm not sure it really matters what the reason is as long as the result is the same (customers benefiting).

Jonathan Brady said:

From my point of view, this camera is ideal for Canon APS-C users who are looking to go FF; people who have several EF-S lenses but few if any EF lenses. Those people can keep using their EF-S lenses (something they couldn't do with a FF DSLR) while they begin purchasing RF lenses.

Click to expand...

On the surface, it seems that's not a bad target market. But, 13-ish mp images out of low-to-medium end EF-S glass probably isn't the best way to make a customers jaw drop after they spent 2300 bucks on the camera. Also, these are people who, more than likely (but not necessarily) have avoided FF due to the cost of the lenses. And if not cost, then quite possibly the size/weight. Canon certainly did NOT provide these cost-conscious consumers who are likely used to using zooms primarily, an inexpensive path into native RF lenses.

Personally, I think this camera is targeted towards anyone who is interested in FF mirrorless and has more reasons to shoot with Canon than some other brand.

Click to expand...

That first paragraph was who I thought Canon was targeting. The second paragraph was my own point of view as to who would be the most natural fit for this camera. From my own perspective, I realized that this camera would not be a great fit for someone with a few DSLRs already and a bunch of Canon's best EF lenses.

Clearly the future of EOS R is with RF lenses. So it's not practical to own both EF and RF side by side. But I couldn't switch entirely to EOS R, because there is no RF 100-400. RF 70-200, RF 16-35, etc. So people for people in my situation it's best to wait few years and watch how this plays out. It also give Canon time to work through some of the issues.

But for people who are going FF for the first time this makes sense. Normally those people would just have to unload their EF lenses with their APS-C camera. But now if they have a wide angle zoom, it would come in handy for 4K video, same with the EF-S 18-135 (STM or Nano motor). The don't have to worry about selling expensive and depreciated luxury EF lenses to replace them with even more expensive luxury RF lenses.

Just my $0.02.

Silvex said:

Clearly the future of EOS R is with RF lenses. So it's not practical to own both EF and RF side by side. But I couldn't switch entirely to EOS R, because there is no RF 100-400. RF 70-200, RF 16-35, etc. So people for people in my situation it's best to wait few years and watch how this plays out. It also give Canon time to work through some of the issues.

Click to expand...

I read that the RF mount has optical benefits primarily for short lenses and to an extent fast normal lenses. Hence, a long EF lens of the same optical quality will be just as good and just as small as an RF version. If you like the R, adapters are cheap. Get a dedicated one for each. When the wide zoom comes out, we will all have to have it.

That said, until it's fully tested and the wide lenses exist, I'm not sure it's worth it.

As a wide angle fanatic, I am the target for the camera, although Nikon has a theoretical advantage with a 20% shorter flange distance and slightly wider mount. They could whip Canon on the wide mirror less lenses, as Canon has whipped them on the wide DSLR lenses, for the same reason.

If Nikon is aggressive on the wide angle lenses, I will switch to the Z without hesitation. That 14-30 won't cut it, though. They would have to give me a 15mm PC or a better 11-24 than Canon's DSLR version.

Nikon's long lenses are also black, like photo equipment is supposed to be.

My thoughts are similar. With 2 exotic lenses it shows the commitment. With adaptors, EF user should be more than happy. I think Canon understand system better than any other company out there.

Martin Muehlemann said:

For years I have been looking for the right, one body, solution for me. I was very happy with the 5D series. Always I bit of a disappointment when Canon did not release all what was expected. The 5D2 was a nasty beast. Light leak issue, moisture ingress and metering issues which only got fix a year after its appearance in March 2012 when i got my first of 3 bodies. Happily I can say it was always replaced without big issue. The biggest issue for me on the 5D3, was the times when I was travelling. I was travelling a lot in 2013 to 2017. About 200'000 to 500'000 miles in the plane.I know use the Oly EM1.2 which has a nice size for traveling. Unfortunately for an airshow, wedding and model shooting which I do too, it is way to slow and AF-C still leaves room for improvement. Some people commented my nude shoots "pixel pu..y". Because the ISO1600 had quite a bit of ISO noise.

Looking at the EOR r, here my thinking.

• It is a tiny bit larger than my EM1.2, but still smaller as a 5D3
  http://j.mp/2MJBpvI
• It has a fully articulated screen which i always missed on the 5D
• It has a very good ISO performance
• It has silent shooting. 5D3 is not completely silent
• It has an EVF, which I love for focus peaking and to see exposure
• It has the much better EVF than what I have had so far
• It has a way better Servo (AF-C) mode

Click to expand...

I think you should make sure that it is better. I want to see more tests on servo mode.

Martin Muehlemann said:

• It does 4k for small clips from my kids
• It has weather sealing
• It has UHS-I and UHS II support and no 45Mb/sec limit
• It has better out of focus rendering than my EM1.2 at F2.8

I have been comfortable with EVF for years. I will not complain about having to take more batteries with me. I carried 6 with the A7 series and I carry 4 with the EM1.2.

I had good success on panning shots at airshows with the 5D2 already, no worries about the 5.5fps in servo mode with the EOS r

I was looking at the Z6 too. What kept me back?

• XQD. I was on a bird island in Norway last year during a downpour. I shot 6000 shots on this boat in full rain during 1.5 hrs. I was wet including underwear and by no means there was a way to change the cards. I have 256 GB SD card. Look at the price tag for XQD
• Flip screen. What I always hated about the A7, Nikon did

Click to expand...

I think flip screen is just awesome.

Martin Muehlemann said:

• The ugly adapter. Ouch. Looks like my old LA-E4 for the A7.

A word on IBIS. I got IBIS in my EM1.2. And of course the Olympus IBIS is probably by far the best on the market. No go out and shoot an airshow, where the F-18 flies at high speed and does high maneuvers. The IS constantly tries to fix the inconsistent movement when the plane pulls and and goes down again. Result. More unusable pictures than it would help. IS is OFF for the duration of the airshow unless doing panning shots at 1/80sec.

Click to expand...

Martin Muehlemann said:

I will get my EOS r beginning next month and my 5D3 will be retired.

Cheers

Martin

Click to expand...

Thanks for your perspective Martin. If you get it before me ( am in New Zealand) I will love to hear your experience.

Myrgjorf said:

The EOS R is part of a very clever statement from Canon. The EOS R gives a statement about slowly migration from the high-end and pro DSLR segment to MLs at a pace aligned with technology development, customers and Canon. Canon deliberately didn’t address the pro market with the first iteration of the EOS R family. Instead Canon addresses the 6D segment with an attractive R series body. The 6D segment has been screaming loudest for MLs for a while and Canon will cleverly use their experiences before Canon moves into the more sensitive pro and high-end enthusiast segments.

Click to expand...

I am sure Canon will release 5D V and 5DVI. There won't be a direct mirrorless competitor to 5D from Canon for few more years. Same goes for 1DX series. I think with EOS R Canon mainly aimed at 6D series and APSC users and to a lesser extent to 5D series users who wanted a mirrorless. EOS R is between 6D and 5D with mirrorless goodies.

Myrgjorf said:

Canon’s new lenses from the same announcement gave some other statement: Canon is committed to the M-series for small, lightweight and cheaper cameras. Canon is committed to EF at least for some years to come with no-loss adapters for the EOS R series. Canon will and can compete with the new kid in town at very high-end pro lenses as their new 400mm f/2.8L is lighter than the new competition and they offer an unmatched 600mm f/4 at the same time. Canon will utilize their new RF platforms capability to provide very specialized high-end RF lenses that reaches further into the future than this first EOS R.

Click to expand...

I think all manufacturers' are worried about camera market's future. Cellphone has largely replaced point and shoot and to some extent APSC for many users. With advancements of technology it is likely that superzooms will replace APSC cameras (including mirrorless) in not too distant future. I think camera manufacturers feel that FF market will be safe for many years to come. No wonder Panasonic also has decided to go FF.

Myrgjorf said:

We can choose to get our feet wet now with the EOS R or we can wait for the next generation or next-next generation EOS R cameras before we move on. I don’t get the screamers, who announce they will move to the competition because one or two features of this first EOS R don’t match the competition. Most cameras are very good these days, but the lenses have much more impact on IQ than cameras in most cases. I guess a good lens will outlast 3 or 4 generations of bodies. The EOS R is the very first camera from a new platform – not the very last. One of my local gurus can’t afford my equipment so he uses cheap, second hand equipment. Yet, I can’t reach he’s knees at the artistic level though I am probably able to make sharper photos. The camera is a tool, the photographer is the artist or (in my case) just a photographer.

Click to expand...

There is an argument that whatever you do with a lesser gear you can do better with a better gear. What is better of course is subjective, but for many it is synonymous with sharper pictures. So, most (or many) are not trying to create art with their gears, they are trying to create sharp pictures. It is all about perspectives.

Myrgjorf said:

Ernest Hemingway to Irving Penn: “Your photos are really good. What camera do you use?”

Irving Penn to Ernest Hemingway: “Your novels are excellent. What typewriter do you use?”

Click to expand...

Ed Rizk said:

The EOS R is for those who want the next generation of superior optics.

Click to expand...

That's is long term. Short term they want people with EF and EF-S lenses to use EOS R.

I think canon made two major missteps.

Price point is not competitive. Also it inticates that future "pro" bodies will be similarly overpriced. They are already loosing the smaller but influential pro market not a good sign for them. For me that means that I m slowly drifting away from them by adding a second Sony system. Tired of the breadcrumb marketing game. Canon has made a business decision by releasing a single card camera , I as a professional made mine.

Canon keep an eye on my gear list below to see how it changes in the next few months.

Ed Rizk said:

Nikon has a theoretical advantage with a 20% shorter flange distance and slightly wider mount.

Click to expand...

Only 1 mm wider is not significant. Canon could have gone for 55 or even 56 mm and used it as a selling point (even with no genuine design benefit), but with the next 30 years at stake they determined that 54 mm was wide enough.

The flange back distance (i.e. mount to sensor) isn't what limits the optical design, it's the back focus (i.e. back of rear element to sensor). It would have been easy for Canon to choose a flange distance of 18 mm (E-mount, also EF-M) or 16 mm (Z-mount) but they chose not to. They have said it allows them to make the mount more rigid, which is credible.

Ed Rizk said:

They could whip Canon on the wide mirror less lenses, as Canon has whipped them on the wide DSLR lenses, for the same reason.

Click to expand...

For the reason given above, Nikon should have no advantage, but we'll see when actual lenses appear.

five5pho said:

I think canon made two major missteps.

Price point is not competitive.

Click to expand...

The EOS R is in many respects a 6D2 successor, but with some important 5D4 features not least of which is the sensor. Autofocus is hard to compare but I think we can safely say it's well above 6D2 level. Given that, what price would you expect to pay?

Lens prices are just about where I would expect them to be.

The RF35/1.8 Macro IS is about the same as the EF35/2 IS USM and appears to improve on it.

The RF24-105/4L IS is exactly the same price as the EF24-105/4L IS II was at launch.

The RF 50/1.2L is admittedly expensive but it seems to be a big step up from the EF50/1.2L.

The RF28-70/2L is less than double the cost of the EF24-70/2.8L III which is much less than you might expect for a one stop faster lens, which can often cost three or four times as much. Some examples of current UK street prices:

EF300/4L IS £1268 - EF300/2.8L IS II £5589 = 4.4x

EF35/2 IS USM £499 - EF35/1.4L £1648 = 3.3x

EF24-70/4L IS £699 - EF24-70/2.8L II £1738 = 2.5x