Why is Olympus one of the last brands to make a large-sensor mirrorless?

I think that some have forgotten or don't know that m43 is the same size as 110 film.

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Indeed, and it should have been called QF sensor size as in Quarter Frame to differentiate it from the HF Half Frame or FF Full Frame or PMF Peculiar Medium Format sensors.

Regards..... Guy
Some are proposing a format between FF and the MF used by Leica.

It could be called WBBIIATMW

(why bother because it isn't all that much wider)

The cute an very memorable initialisation could be the selling point.
 
It could be called WBBIIATMW

(why bother because it isn't all that much wider)

The cute an very memorable initialisation could be the selling point.
Still better than MILC.
 
We're not going back to the 35mm film days. Not everyone has to compete with a cookie-cutter FF mirrorless, or whatever the "standard" is.

Oh, and by the way, Pentax. There - I said it.
 
Full Frame is according to the popular 35mm standard, you'll have to get used to it. Smaller than that is Crop. Larger than that is the nebulous Medium Format, which can mean anything from 50% more sensor area to 6x7cm.
Don't forget 6x8, 6x9, 6x12 and 6x17.
 
[No message]
 
Why should Olympus make large sensor mirrorless?

It's not that big market. The Panasonic is probably going to make one because it's bit hard to get 8K out from small sensor.

Panasonic has to have 8K video capable cameras at 2020 when Tokyo Olympics are hold and broadcasted at 8K.
 
A house is called a house in English because that's an accepted standard however, if you want to call it a glypto go ahead. The problem is nobody will know what you are talking about. Like it or not Full Frame has become the accepted standard and it's understood by anyone versed in photography.
 
A house is called a house in English because that's an accepted standard however, if you want to call it a glypto go ahead. The problem is nobody will know what you are talking about. Like it or not Full Frame has become the accepted standard and it's understood by anyone versed in photography.

--
Tom
But I'm sure the term "house" was as hotly debated as "full frame" when it was new.
 
It is just a business decision.

They are currently losing money or barely breaking even in their imaging division, and jumping into a highly competitive market niche like FF MILC just doesn't make business sense for them.

Their accountants just don't see this as helping the division become profitable. And they are probably right. Even Panasonic is taking a huge risk by entering this product niche, but at least they have their expertise in video they can leverage. Olympus has no such advantage.

Currently, Olympus has withdrawn from many market sectors. They are only selling crop sensored MILC cameras, rugged cameras and an occasional superzoom camera now. They have never even had a large sensored compact camera while Panasonic has several.

I think we need to take Olympus at their word when they say "we only maintain an imaging division for the technology we need for our medical devices." And those are the products that make the corporation very profitable.

They are not looking to expand their market share, or to be "number one" in anything. They are smart enough to know that they are up against competitors with much more resources and much deeper pockets.

And I am glad they feel this way.
 
A house is called a house in English because that's an accepted standard however, if you want to call it a glypto go ahead. The problem is nobody will know what you are talking about. Like it or not Full Frame has become the accepted standard and it's understood by anyone versed in photography.
But I'm sure the term "house" was as hotly debated as "full frame" when it was new.
:-D
 
It is just a business decision.

They are currently losing money or barely breaking even in their imaging division, and jumping into a highly competitive market niche like FF MILC just doesn't make business sense for them.

Their accountants just don't see this as helping the division become profitable. And they are probably right. Even Panasonic is taking a huge risk by entering this product niche, but at least they have their expertise in video they can leverage. Olympus has no such advantage.

Currently, Olympus has withdrawn from many market sectors. They are only selling crop sensored MILC cameras, rugged cameras and an occasional superzoom camera now. They have never even had a large sensored compact camera while Panasonic has several.

I think we need to take Olympus at their word when they say "we only maintain an imaging division for the technology we need for our medical devices." And those are the products that make the corporation very profitable.

They are not looking to expand their market share, or to be "number one" in anything. They are smart enough to know that they are up against competitors with much more resources and much deeper pockets.

And I am glad they feel this way.
 
Their users would rather buy $1200 primes..............................
Their users would rather buy compact and lightweight primes. Let me know when I can find a Sony, Canon, or Nikon 90/1.8 that measures 40 cubic centimetres and weighs less than 120 grams. On that day, I'll switch to fullframe. But until then I'll keep shooting micro 4/3rds.
If it's a photo you are after, you can't have it both ways, double the focal length but not the aperture.

Often enough done by MFT aficionados, but the image characteristics are sadly closer to a 90/3.6.

You knew that, didn't you? 😎

Deed
 
There is a great article about sensor tech and camera companies here:


Specially this comentary:

Roy P writes:
There's one important point that didn't quite get the recognition it needed, IMHO. And that is, sensor technology is the primary driver for both digital photography and videography. Until I retired at the end of 2009 from a major chip design automation software company, I was in the business of marketing lithography and DFM (design for manufacturing) software to chip companies, including the sensor guys (Sony, Samsung, Sharp). Even at that time, Sony was massively investing into image sensor technologies, far more than the others. In fact, Sony really went for broke, likely driven by Kazuo Hirai.

Today, Sony is 3+ years ahead of everyone else in the field with its backlit stacked CMOS sensors, and maybe even 5+ years when you consider some of the cutting edge work Sony is doing, like the Trichromatic and curved sensors. The field includes Canon, Panasonic and Samsung, the only other camera companies that makes their own image sensors, and a handful of independent sensor makers (CMOSIS, Jazz, a bunch of Chinese companies at the very low end). Sigma was a pioneer with the Foveon, but could not make it mainstream.

Canon makes a range of sensors from crop size to full frame, but only for their own use - they are not in the sensor business. If they were, they would not be competitive. A lot of their dynamic range and noise is fudged in firmware.

Samsung fell behind and got out of the photography business, but makes sensors for its phones and tablets (and likely sells sensors to other phone makers). APS-C was as big a size as Samsung ever got to, but AFAIK, they're now down to only phone / tablet-sized sensors.

Panasonic makes its own sensors, but is limited to the MFT size max. I don’t think they have any APS-C sensors, and they definitely don't have any full-frame. I don’t know what other companies orbit around Panasonic, other than Leica, which gets complete cameras designed by Panasonic (e.g., the D-LUX, V-LUX, etc.), not just the sensors.

Olympus got into a serious scandal a few years ago that resulted in many senior execs being fired, big time fines, legal expenses and other financial losses. They have never recovered from that, in spite of making some superb lenses for the MFT, and being a pioneer in mirrorless way back in 2010, along with Sony. They have stabilized themselves by building a close partnership with Sony that gets them a solid source for sensors, and also revenues from cross-licensing (e.g., the 5-axis image stabilization Sony uses came from Olympus).

Pretty much all other serious camera makers are Sony vassals - they get their sensors from Sony, and they are pretty deeply married to the Sony sensor technology roadmap, which pretty much puts them at the cutting edge of innovation (e.g., the new 150 MP and the 100 MP Trichromatic and Achromatic medium format sensors).

So there's a pretty impressive list of camera makers that have made deep, long-term commitments to being a part of the Sony eco-system. An image sensor is not like a commodity chip like a DRAM that you can easily switch vendors with; a camera maker has to make much deeper commitments in terms of capture firmware, noise processing, autofocusing, buffering, sensor read out to LCD display, and even lens design, which are all increasingly integrated with the sensor these days.

The Sony universe now includes everything from the ultra-high-end (Phase One, Hasselblad, Fujifilm, Pentax, all medium format), to 35mm full-frame (Nikon, Pentax, Sony), APS-C (Nikon, Sony, and probably, Fuji), 1" (Sony), 1/2.3" (Sony, possibly others), and phones (Apple). Sony doesn't have any MFT camera offerings, but it wouldn't surprise me if Sony were the supplier to Olympus.

I don't know who Ricoh got sensors from for its cameras.

Sorry for the long preamble, but with that long preamble, here's the way I look at the various camera makers:

- Sony: in the driver's seat, sets the pace. New cameras have been coming out at an amazing pace, and that is likely to continue. It's incredible that there are SEVEN versions of the RX100 all still shipping today: the original RX100, the Mark II, III, IV, V, VA and VI.

- Phase One, Hasselblad, FujiFilm, Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, and potentially now Zeiss, are all value-added resellers of Sony sensors. Their value added is their camera design, proprietary CPUs used inside, other hardware included in the camera (DRAM buffers, flash, other things like GPS, vibration sensors, flash transmitters, etc.), firmware, LCD, camera functions, features and controls, and of course, lenses, flashes and other accessories to build out a system, performance/price, range of offerings, and last but not least, service. There is an awful lot of scope to add proprietary value. Nikon is showing it now with its Z cameras, even if the very first efforts might be lacking a bit.

All these companies can march at their own pace, gated only by two items: Sony's sensor wavefront and Moore's Law. The rest of it is up to their own investments into R&D, marketing, distribution and service. Not to mention vision, management competence, and operational execution. (Pentax, did you hear that?)

- Canon: Ditto as above, but gated by its own sensor technology. At some point, Canon will have to bite the bullet, decide to invest hundreds of millions / billions of dollars into image sensor technology to at least somewhat catch up with Sony. My guess is, this is happening quietly in the background. There is too much at stake. It is unlikely Canon leapfrogs Sony in two years - Sony has a decade of learning curve under its belt. But if Canon can be somewhat competitive, that should at least buy them time.

- Panasonic: Probably continue to thrive in the MFT space, with a video-centric vision. They have a solid installed base, and they can continue to do well in it, while supplying Lumix designs to Leica. But I don't expect anything beyond that (APS-C, FF, etc.)

- Ricoh: No idea. Perhaps join the Sony ecosystem? It's probably too little, too late already.

- Sigma: Doomed to be a niche player, but even so, there are some creative things they could do, instead of endlessly limping along as they have been doing for nearly a decade now. For instance, I have no idea why Sigma can't put together a simple Foveon Landscape camera bundle which does only one thing: take fantastic landscape photos on a tripod. Make a camera with a full-frame Foveon processor, a superb fixed 16-35mm f/4 lens, high res EVF and touch-sensitive LCD with superb live view, sensor and lens stabilization, and ISO frozen to a 50-400 range. It does only one thing, take landscape photos, but it does it brilliantly.

- Notably missing "L" Word, Leica. Doomed to source lower resolution sensors from second-tier sources like CMOSIS. Their low volume assures high costs for sensor technology that is years behind the leader, continuing the trend of introducing cameras that are obsolete on day one in the eyes of anyone not an ardent Leicaphile. Panasonic could become a more formidable competitor in photography by acquiring Leica, but they would need to make serious investments into proprietary sensor technology, which I suspect is what has kept them from picking up Leica.

....

When I got into mirrorless back in early 2011, I bought an NEX-5 and sold my M9. Even the APS-C NEX-5 was already such a nicer camera to use than the M9, in spite of not being able to use the M lenses to their full capability. I had a choice between the Sony and the Olympus EM-1. The guy at the local camera store was heavily pushing the Olympus, because it was a more complete system at that time, but for me it was a no brainer: go with Sony! Just based on the sensor technology and roadmap. It turned out to be the right decision.
 
I didn't know they had to compete. I guess Olympus is realistic enough about the benefits of a smaller, lighter system that can virtually match FF print quality on general print sizes.

Technically, FF does offer more but most of it is beyond the human eye or for less common shooting conditions.
If by human eye you mean how they view images on mobile and tablet screens, then yes. Or in small prints. MFT produces fantastic images, but that technical difference offers more potential in FF.

That you don't need it or want it is fine. It is incorrect to say the difference is mostly beyond the human eye. Even in shots where I use HDR to extend beyond the capabilities of the human eye, the resultant image isn't. But it allows me to create both what I want and a more accurate representation of what humans experience when viewing a scene.

I've sold 16x24 prints from a 1" sensor. I've sold similar size prints made from an iPhone sensor. Size isn't always important, but that doesn't mean it is never or even rarely important.

APS-C and FF comprise the majority of what I sell, because the they give me what I want to make my images. I think I could do similar with MFT, but the latitude isn't there.
 
If they model their endoscopes on their consumer cameras I'm happy they are not going FF😯

To me the idea of consumer camera R&D supporting development of medical imaging always seemed a quaint argument. Suspect it's more a tradition/pride/image thing. OTOH the stockholders need to buy it. Hope they stick with it despite all the death sentences.
Every gastroenterologist I have worked with at a number of institutions prefers Olympus over Pentax scopes. I have no experience their consumer cameras.
 
It is just a business decision.

They are currently losing money or barely breaking even in their imaging division, and jumping into a highly competitive market niche like FF MILC just doesn't make business sense for them.

Their accountants just don't see this as helping the division become profitable. And they are probably right. Even Panasonic is taking a huge risk by entering this product niche, but at least they have their expertise in video they can leverage. Olympus has no such advantage.

Currently, Olympus has withdrawn from many market sectors. They are only selling crop sensored MILC cameras, rugged cameras and an occasional superzoom camera now. They have never even had a large sensored compact camera while Panasonic has several.

I think we need to take Olympus at their word when they say "we only maintain an imaging division for the technology we need for our medical devices." And those are the products that make the corporation very profitable.

They are not looking to expand their market share, or to be "number one" in anything. They are smart enough to know that they are up against competitors with much more resources and much deeper pockets.

And I am glad they feel this way.
If they model their endoscopes on their consumer cameras I'm happy they are not going FF😯

To me the idea of consumer camera R&D supporting development of medical imaging always seemed a quaint argument. Suspect it's more a tradition/pride/image thing. OTOH the stockholders need to buy it. Hope they stick with it despite all the death sentences.
The advantage if having a high volume product to write off R&D investments on will make it more cost effective than only having low volume products.

For the same reason Pentax and Fuji can sell medium format cameras at much lower price than manufacturer that only produce medium format. Most of the R&D can be written off on high volume products at much less R&D cost per unit.
 
Only around 25% of cameras sold are full frame cameras. So this is a limited portion of a shrinking market.

There are currently five major companies (and soon to be six) producing full frame ILC products. Where would Olympus fit into this group as a competitor? What precisely could they do better or cheaper than someone else isn't already doing?
  • Leica SL - the obvious choice for affluent buyers who want well built high quality products that confer status and prestige.
  • Nikon Z - the obvious choice for Nikon FF users who want a MILC version that can use their adapted lenses.
  • Canon EOS R - the obvious choice for Canon FF users who want a MILC version that can use their adapted lenses.
  • Sony FE- the obvious choice for Sony E users moving up, or anyone who wants a very good FF MILC camera with a good native lens selection that is available right now.
  • Panasonic FF - the obvious choice for people who want the very best video capability in a FF MILC camera.
I just don't see how Olympus can compete for customers against those five, since Olympus lacks any unique or impressive thing to attract customers. Their only customers will be "very brand loyal Olympus users" and their numbers are relatively small compared to Nikon, Canon, and Sony's "very brand loyal users."

To grab customers Olympus might have to price their FF MILC cameras much lower than the other firms do, and that strategy would create the double edged sword of making profitability unlikely and diverting sales away from high end M4/3 products.

The idea makes absolutely no business sense.
 
Only around 25% of cameras sold are full frame cameras. So this is a limited portion of a shrinking market.

There are currently five major companies (and soon to be six) producing full frame ILC products. Where would Olympus fit into this group as a competitor? What precisely could they do better or cheaper than someone else isn't already doing?
  • Leica SL - the obvious choice for affluent buyers who want well built high quality products that confer status and prestige.
  • Nikon Z - the obvious choice for Nikon FF users who want a MILC version that can use their adapted lenses.
  • Canon EOS R - the obvious choice for Canon FF users who want a MILC version that can use their adapted lenses.
  • Sony FE- the obvious choice for Sony E users moving up, or anyone who wants a very good FF MILC camera with a good native lens selection that is available right now.
  • Panasonic FF - the obvious choice for people who want the very best video capability in a FF MILC camera.
I just don't see how Olympus can compete for customers against those five, since Olympus lacks any unique or impressive thing to attract customers. Their only customers will be "very brand loyal Olympus users" and their numbers are relatively small compared to Nikon, Canon, and Sony's "very brand loyal users."

To grab customers Olympus might have to price their FF MILC cameras much lower than the other firms do, and that strategy would create the double edged sword of making profitability unlikely and diverting sales away from high end M4/3 products.

The idea makes absolutely no business sense.
Your analysis here makes sense.

I think Olympus will be fine not making full-frame mirrorless cameras if they are realistic about pricing. Somehow, some way, they're going to have to figure out how to sell their next top-end micro 4/3 camera at much, much less than $1,999 and still make a decent profit. At $1,999, any future top-end Olympus camera will be a hard sell against Sony, Nikon, and Canon full-frame cameras priced similarly or only a few hundred dollars more. If Olympus can't price their cameras competitively against cameras with a much larger sensor, I don't see how their camera division stays in business much longer.

Note: I am an Olympus user.
 
Olympus does sell the best looking camera bodies although Fuji and Leica have tried. All the others seem to be clueless about visual design.

Olympus just needs to buy the internals from Sony's previous generation A7Rii and clothe it in something as gorgeous as a Pen-F, and they'll have a business case.

The grip of the E-M1 ii also fits my hand better than any camera out there. Put an FF sensor in there and they may have a market.
 
A house is called a house in English because that's an accepted standard however, if you want to call it a glypto go ahead. The problem is nobody will know what you are talking about. Like it or not Full Frame has become the accepted standard and it's understood by anyone versed in photography.
But I'm sure the term "house" was as hotly debated as "full frame" when it was new.
Yes, "cave with windows" was popular for a little while. I remember that well.
 

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