Well thats kind of funny. I always thought, dynamic range is first and foremost delivered by the sensor.
Today I learned something else... NOT
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BREAKING: Z7 sensor performance is tested better than D850. Way better resolution & MTF50
- Thread starter RaLuC
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- nikon d850 nikon z7
Today I learned something else... NOT
Iliah Borg
Forum Pro
It well may be an exceptionally good lens, and I hope it is; but 10% difference in this test IMHO is not a data point.
Iliah Borg
Forum Pro
For JPEGs it may be not exactly so.
This numbers, "DR at ISO 64 is 9.3 f-stops; at ISO 1600 8.9", definitely have something to do with how raw was converted to JPEG.
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http://www.libraw.org/
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peripheralfocus
Veteran Member
Dude, you're being willfully obtuse here, which, honestly, is not a good thing to do in full public view. Best to indulge such habits in private.
It's a straightforward idea: the results that PDN showed were almost certainly all from default JPEGs, which are not useful for judging sensor performance. If they had shown results from raw files then there would be more to talk about regarding the sensor (although even then, there are a lot of variables to account for).
As someone else on this thread pointed out, the tests that Image Engineering used for the PDN article are designed to show overall system performance, including in-camera processing. There's a definite role for that kind of test in the world, but they need to be evaluated for what they are.
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peripheralfocus
Veteran Member
Fair enough; I'll incorporate your doubts into my calculations
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david vella
Senior Member
Absolutely not , that's entirely down to the user
I believe the theoretical maximum they are talking about assumes 100% effective fill factor. Slanted edge MTF testing measures pixel aperture. Reducing the pixel effective aperture below that giving 100% fill will give sharper results than an ideal AA-less sensor at 100% fill.”103 percent of the theoretical maximum”
An extreme example of this is the Fuji GFX, which has deliberately small micro lenses, and gives off the charts MTFs.
Comparing undemosaiced slanted edge MTF of a AA-less BSI sensors at base ISO with the same lens is essentially measuring the characteristics of the microlenses. Not clear to me that's what they did, but that's the high road.
Jim
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Posted as a regular forum member.
https://blog.kasson.com
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Sara Valentine
Leading Member
So many people want 15 minutes of internet forum fame for being the first to post some article about the latest gear regardless of the quality of the material.
Thanks Jim. The first and only serious reaction on my post. Lets see what other reviews will bring out...I believe the theoretical maximum they are talking about assumes 100% effective fill factor. Slanted edge MTF testing measures pixel aperture. Reducing the pixel effective aperture below that giving 100% fill will give sharper results than an ideal AA-less sensor at 100% fill.”103 percent of the theoretical maximum”
An extreme example of this is the Fuji GFX, which has deliberately small micro lenses, and gives off the charts MTFs.
Comparing undemosaiced slanted edge MTF of a AA-less BSI sensors at base ISO with the same lens is essentially measuring the characteristics of the microlenses. Not clear to me that's what they did, but that's the high road.
Jim
If you want to see some MTFs that are way outside of what you could get with a perfect lens and 100% effective fill factor, look here:Thanks Jim. The first and only serious reaction on my post. Lets see what other reviews will bring out...I believe the theoretical maximum they are talking about assumes 100% effective fill factor. Slanted edge MTF testing measures pixel aperture. Reducing the pixel effective aperture below that giving 100% fill will give sharper results than an ideal AA-less sensor at 100% fill.”103 percent of the theoretical maximum”
An extreme example of this is the Fuji GFX, which has deliberately small micro lenses, and gives off the charts MTFs.
Comparing undemosaiced slanted edge MTF of a AA-less BSI sensors at base ISO with the same lens is essentially measuring the characteristics of the microlenses. Not clear to me that's what they did, but that's the high road.
Jim
Loading…
blog.kasson.com
Jim
Of course, another way to get MTF's way over what you'd expect from a perfect lens on a 100% fill factor sensor is to sharpen the image. And that includes the stealth sharpening performed by some raw developers and most in-camera-JPEGs.I believe the theoretical maximum they are talking about assumes 100% effective fill factor. Slanted edge MTF testing measures pixel aperture. Reducing the pixel effective aperture below that giving 100% fill will give sharper results than an ideal AA-less sensor at 100% fill.”103 percent of the theoretical maximum”
An extreme example of this is the Fuji GFX, which has deliberately small micro lenses, and gives off the charts MTFs.
Comparing undemosaiced slanted edge MTF of a AA-less BSI sensors at base ISO with the same lens is essentially measuring the characteristics of the microlenses. Not clear to me that's what they did, but that's the high road.
Jim
Any tester worth her salt will set things up so there is no sharpening, or that at least it is the same when comparing two sensors. Using default raw developer settings for two different cameras, won't necessarily accomplish the latter.
Jim
They detail here what they do for testing:Of course, another way to get MTF's way over what you'd expect from a perfect lens on a 100% fill factor sensor is to sharpen the image. And that includes the stealth sharpening performed by some raw developers and most in-camera-JPEGs.I believe the theoretical maximum they are talking about assumes 100% effective fill factor. Slanted edge MTF testing measures pixel aperture. Reducing the pixel effective aperture below that giving 100% fill will give sharper results than an ideal AA-less sensor at 100% fill.”103 percent of the theoretical maximum”
An extreme example of this is the Fuji GFX, which has deliberately small micro lenses, and gives off the charts MTFs.
Comparing undemosaiced slanted edge MTF of a AA-less BSI sensors at base ISO with the same lens is essentially measuring the characteristics of the microlenses. Not clear to me that's what they did, but that's the high road.
Jim
Any tester worth her salt will set things up so there is no sharpening, or that at least it is the same when comparing two sensors. Using default raw developer settings for two different cameras, won't necessarily accomplish the latter.
Jim
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www.tipa.com
peripheralfocus
Veteran Member
Jim, they tested JPEGs at default sharpening settings. They even include a set of tests of the sharpening overshoot/undershoot. You can follow the link and check it out for yourself.
The testing outfit that PDN uses, a German lab called Image Engineering, looks perfectly legitimate to me. Been around quite a long time, and they claim one of their tests is on its way to becoming an ISO standard. But the testing suite they used for the Z7 is not intended to reveal the things that most of us here are looking for.
It appears that Image Engineering makes most of their money testing devices where there is no need, or even ability, to isolate the sensor. Their tests are designed to reveal total imaging system performance—in cell phones, security cameras, video inspection machine vision systems etc. For that purpose, their tests are probably perfectly fine. (I haven't dug deep enough to really know.)
What they have revealed about the Z7 is total system performance, with a specific S-Line lens, at default JPEG settings. Nothing wrong with that, but not what many folks on these forums are particularly interested in. (It's certainly not how I would use a Z7.)
As an aside, I've done basically similar tests on 75+ point-and-shoot cameras over the past 20 years, in the course of reviewing them. It makes perfect sense with a camera that will be used at default JPEG settings by 98% of its owners. Doesn't make as much sense with a Z7 class camera.
Thanks. Not slanted edge, but Siemens star. But I didn't see how the image was processed. Is this done before demosaicing?They detail here what they do for testing:Of course, another way to get MTF's way over what you'd expect from a perfect lens on a 100% fill factor sensor is to sharpen the image. And that includes the stealth sharpening performed by some raw developers and most in-camera-JPEGs.I believe the theoretical maximum they are talking about assumes 100% effective fill factor. Slanted edge MTF testing measures pixel aperture. Reducing the pixel effective aperture below that giving 100% fill will give sharper results than an ideal AA-less sensor at 100% fill.”103 percent of the theoretical maximum”
An extreme example of this is the Fuji GFX, which has deliberately small micro lenses, and gives off the charts MTFs.
Comparing undemosaiced slanted edge MTF of a AA-less BSI sensors at base ISO with the same lens is essentially measuring the characteristics of the microlenses. Not clear to me that's what they did, but that's the high road.
Jim
Any tester worth her salt will set things up so there is no sharpening, or that at least it is the same when comparing two sensors. Using default raw developer settings for two different cameras, won't necessarily accomplish the latter.
Jim
http://www.tipa.com/_assets/pdf/TIPA_Camera_Test_Image_Engineering.pdf
Jim
Then the numbers are pretty useless for judging how sharp raw files would be.
Check.
rhlpetrus
Forum Pro
P
Patco
Guest
"Official" review site? "Official" under whose authorization?
Found a Nikon Rumors post about a IR interview done in Japan, with three Nikon engineers, and were asked about the two sensors, basically the same for raw and visibly better for jpgs because of Expeed 6. Question how much better, i guess that’s what the Pdnonline test is trying to say?
In deed, a valid point here!
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