BREAKING: Z7 sensor performance is tested better than D850. Way better resolution & MTF50

[RaLuC]

https://www.pdnonline.com/gear/cameras/mirrorless/nikon-z7-camera-review/

 

[Laslo Varadi]

https://www.pdnonline.com/gear/cameras/mirrorless/nikon-z7-camera-review/

Really?

 

[RaLuC]

https://www.pdnonline.com/gear/cameras/mirrorless/nikon-z7-camera-review/

Really?

yep and also dynamic range is clearly better.

 

[RaLuC]

https://www.pdnonline.com/gear/cameras/mirrorless/nikon-z7-camera-review/

Really?

yep and also dynamic range is clearly better.

Quotes:

'

Resolution

• At ISO 64, the Z7 captures 2822 line pairs per picture height (LP/PH), 103 percent of the theoretical maximum.
• In comparISO n, the Nikon D850 captured 2591 LP/PH at ISO 64 – 94 percent of the theoretical maximum.
• Lower ISOs show consistently excellent resolution, with, for example 2681 LP/PH (97 percent of theoretical maximum) at ISO 800.
• Resolution is good at mid-range ISOs : 2511 LP/PH (91 percent) at ISO 1600 and nearly the same (2477 LP/PH) at ISO 3200.
• At the highest range of ISOs , resolution is less good: at the highest native ISO of 25600, the Z7 records 2163 LP/PH, representing 79 percent of the theoretical maximum.'

and

'

Texture loss

• Texture reproduction is very good: at ISO 64, the MTF50 is 1924 LP/PH, with 20.6 percent artifacts.
• Areas of high contrast are reproduced with an MTF50 of 1487 LP/PH (28.4 percent artifacts) at ISO 3200, together with 1308 LP/PH and 36.3 percent artifacts in low contrast portions of the scene.
• Texture reproduction by the Z7 is better than that produced by the D850: in areas of high contrast, MTF50 is better at ISO 3200, for example, and at the highest native ISO of ISO 25600.
• However, it is in areas of low contrast that the difference between the Z7 and the D850 is particularly noticeable: the Z7 performs quite a bit better than the D850, with better MTF50 at ISOs up to and including ISO 3200.
• At higher ISOs , the Z7 performs less well: at ISO 6400, 1075LP/PH are captured in area of high contrast, with 34.1 percent artifacts, and 590 LP/PH in low contrast (51.3 percent artifacts).
• At the highest native ISO of 25600, the Z7 records only 572 LP/PH with 48.1 percent artifacts (high contrast) and 295 LP/PH in low contrast areas with 75.2 percent artifacts.'

Thats a whooping near 10% better resolving power at base iso. Thats groundbreaking

 

[TOF guy]

”103 percent of the theoretical maximum”

 

[Sublimert70]

Hmmm, me thinks the authors must have minimal technical experience / training. I know my graduate advisor would have not signed my dissertation with a statement like this in it... .

 

[starfly]

https://www.pdnonline.com/gear/cameras/mirrorless/nikon-z7-camera-review/

Really?

yep and also dynamic range is clearly better.

Quotes:

'

Resolution

• At ISO 64, the Z7 captures 2822 line pairs per picture height (LP/PH), 103 percent of the theoretical maximum.
• In comparISO n, the Nikon D850 captured 2591 LP/PH at ISO 64 – 94 percent of the theoretical maximum.
• Lower ISOs show consistently excellent resolution, with, for example 2681 LP/PH (97 percent of theoretical maximum) at ISO 800.
• Resolution is good at mid-range ISOs : 2511 LP/PH (91 percent) at ISO 1600 and nearly the same (2477 LP/PH) at ISO 3200.
• At the highest range of ISOs , resolution is less good: at the highest native ISO of 25600, the Z7 records 2163 LP/PH, representing 79 percent of the theoretical maximum.'

and

'

Texture loss

• Texture reproduction is very good: at ISO 64, the MTF50 is 1924 LP/PH, with 20.6 percent artifacts.
• Areas of high contrast are reproduced with an MTF50 of 1487 LP/PH (28.4 percent artifacts) at ISO 3200, together with 1308 LP/PH and 36.3 percent artifacts in low contrast portions of the scene.
• Texture reproduction by the Z7 is better than that produced by the D850: in areas of high contrast, MTF50 is better at ISO 3200, for example, and at the highest native ISO of ISO 25600.
• However, it is in areas of low contrast that the difference between the Z7 and the D850 is particularly noticeable: the Z7 performs quite a bit better than the D850, with better MTF50 at ISOs up to and including ISO 3200.
• At higher ISOs , the Z7 performs less well: at ISO 6400, 1075LP/PH are captured in area of high contrast, with 34.1 percent artifacts, and 590 LP/PH in low contrast (51.3 percent artifacts).
• At the highest native ISO of 25600, the Z7 records only 572 LP/PH with 48.1 percent artifacts (high contrast) and 295 LP/PH in low contrast areas with 75.2 percent artifacts.'

Thats a whooping near 10% better resolving power at base iso. Thats groundbreaking

Will it take good pictures though?

 

[RaLuC]

The 100% seems to be a theoretical maximum. This is based on an algorithm and assumption based on empirical data. This kind of thing is very common in optical testing and also in scientific areas where I work.

Regarding expertise:

Quote

PDN is a member of theTechnical Image Press Association which has contracted with Image Engineering to perform detailed lab tests of digital cameras. Seehere for a full methodological rundown of how Image Engineering puts cameras through their paces. Full res files of every visual in this review are available to download for your pixel-peeping pleasure here.

...

 

[ncsakany]

Will it take good pictures though?

Not as good as my iphone, but I promise to work hard on improving my skills.

 

[peripheralfocus]

Regarding expertise:

Quote

PDN is a member of theTechnical Image Press Association which has contracted with Image Engineering to perform detailed lab tests of digital cameras. Seehere for a full methodological rundown of how Image Engineering puts cameras through their paces. Full res files of every visual in this review are available to download for your pixel-peeping pleasure here.

The lab that did the tests appears to be quite legit, so no worries from me about their expertise.

It appears, however, that all their tests are based on JPEGs, with mostly default settings. That can be defended as "how most consumers will use the camera" for lower end cameras, but it's not a sufficient test methodology for higher end cameras like the Z7, where most users will not just shoot JPEG at factory defaults.

Finally, they used the S-Line 35mm f/1.8 lens on the Z7, and I'm guessing that accounts for much of the improvement in resolution compared to the D850. That's good in one sense — it seems like an early data point to support the notion that the S-Line optics really are exceptional — but it's not so good for making comparisons to Nikon cameras tested with F-mount lenses (like the D850). If you mount whatever lens they used to test the D850 to the Z7, I'm guessing the MTF figures would be closer to the D850's.

 

[karlreed]

Hmmm, me thinks the authors must have minimal technical experience / training. I know my graduate advisor would have not signed my dissertation with a statement like this in it... .

Whether they were justified or not I can't tell without knowing the details. I don't have something measured being more than the theoretical maximum, which could simply be an estimate based on prior empirical data of examples of lower capability.. That would require me to adjust my theoretical maximum

Regards

--
karl reed "let's change the tone-civility is in!"

 

[rhlpetrus]

Regarding expertise:

Quote

PDN is a member of theTechnical Image Press Association which has contracted with Image Engineering to perform detailed lab tests of digital cameras. Seehere for a full methodological rundown of how Image Engineering puts cameras through their paces. Full res files of every visual in this review are available to download for your pixel-peeping pleasure here.

The lab that did the tests appears to be quite legit, so no worries from me about their expertise.

It appears, however, that all their tests are based on JPEGs, with mostly default settings. That can be defended as "how most consumers will use the camera" for lower end cameras, but it's not a sufficient test methodology for higher end cameras like the Z7, where most users will not just shoot JPEG at factory defaults.

Finally, they used the S-Line 35mm f/1.8 lens on the Z7, and I'm guessing that accounts for much of the improvement in resolution compared to the D850. That's good in one sense — it seems like an early data point to support the notion that the S-Line optics really are exceptional — but it's not so good for making comparisons to Nikon cameras tested with F-mount lenses (like the D850). If you mount whatever lens they used to test the D850 to the Z7, I'm guessing the MTF figures would be closer to the D850's.

Why would anyone expect better sensor performance in terms of resolution? This is basically same sensor with new AF sensors, as Bill Claff's noise test has already shown.

 

[Iliah Borg]

Different lenses, different JPEG engines.

This isn't a way to compare sensor performances.

Even different copies of the same lens may have 10+% MTF difference.

The acceptability criteria they used for deltaE is quite low.

 

[RaLuC]

Regarding expertise:

Quote

PDN is a member of theTechnical Image Press Association which has contracted with Image Engineering to perform detailed lab tests of digital cameras. Seehere for a full methodological rundown of how Image Engineering puts cameras through their paces. Full res files of every visual in this review are available to download for your pixel-peeping pleasure here.

The lab that did the tests appears to be quite legit, so no worries from me about their expertise.

It appears, however, that all their tests are based on JPEGs, with mostly default settings. That can be defended as "how most consumers will use the camera" for lower end cameras, but it's not a sufficient test methodology for higher end cameras like the Z7, where most users will not just shoot JPEG at factory defaults.

Finally, they used the S-Line 35mm f/1.8 lens on the Z7, and I'm guessing that accounts for much of the improvement in resolution compared to the D850. That's good in one sense — it seems like an early data point to support the notion that the S-Line optics really are exceptional — but it's not so good for making comparisons to Nikon cameras tested with F-mount lenses (like the D850). If you mount whatever lens they used to test the D850 to the Z7, I'm guessing the MTF figures would be closer to the D850's.

You have a good pont here. However, they claim in the attached article pdf, that they always do comparison with an identical lens. So I guess they also used the FTZ adapter for that.

That being said, we dont know for sure.

But as you said, the whole system seems to easily outperform the D850 with F-mount lenses. And that again just would prove Nikons statement, the Sensor as well as the whole system has more resolving power and DR than the D850.

 

[jfriend00]

https://www.pdnonline.com/gear/cameras/mirrorless/nikon-z7-camera-review/

Nothing about that article is a sensor performance test. It's a system test of a Z7 system vs. a d850 system. That means it's one system of sensor + readout + lens + JPEG engine + any other things in the camera that affect IQ vs. a completely different system.

So, calling this a sensor performance test is grossly misleading. We don't actually know which elements in the system have caused which differences. It is likely that the lens and JPEG engines are both meaningful contributors to the differences. It's unclear how many differences there would be if you show RAW and optimized the processing and used the same F-mount lens on both (which would be more like an actual comparison of sensors).

I don't mean to take away from the results. They are what they are and it speaks to advances in the Z7. But, the OP characterizing this as a sensor performance test is misleading. That's not exactly what it is. If one wanted to do a sensor performance test, there are better/different ways to isolate just sensor differences.

--
John

 

[peripheralfocus]

You have a good pont here. However, they claim in the attached article pdf, that they always do comparison with an identical lens. So I guess they also used the FTZ adapter for that.

The resolution chart for the Z7 is labeled with the 35/1.8 S-Line, so we know that's what they used. That lens cannot be used with a D850, so there's no way they could have done both tests (the Z7 and the D850) with that lens.

If they did test the Z7 with the same F-mount lens that they used for the D850, they did not present those results. Would be cool if they did someday.

But as you said, the whole system seems to easily outperform the D850 with F-mount lenses. And that again just would prove Nikons statement, the Sensor as well as the whole system has more resolving power and DR than the D850.

Nikon did not say that the sensor has either more resolving power or DR than the D850. (I was at the launch and have received all the media materials for the Z system, so I'm quite sure of this.)

They definitely did claim that the S-Line lenses will set new standards for FF format optics, so, again, I think that's the main takeaway here: the 35/1.8 may be a pretty great lens. (More tests are obviously needed.)

It's also good to keep the JPEG thing in mind. There's no guarantee that the default JPEG processing on the Z7 is the same as on the D850. In fact, it's almost guaranteed that they are different, at least in some ways.

 

[RaLuC]

I see, a lot of experts here, knowing everything better than an official review site. :-D

I am open to see your reviews with legit tests and 100% reliable resources and sources.

Unless you have these, this is the best we have right now.

Regarding JPEG vs RAW; they test both, as it is clearly mentioned in the attached TIPA camera testing conditions paper.

Lets see what will come out the next couple of weeks.

There is somebody here on the forum, who has already claimed to know that superiority of the Z7 to the D850. And as it seems, this guy is not a troll.

Lets wait and see! ;-)

 

[RaLuC]

You have a good pont here. However, they claim in the attached article pdf, that they always do comparison with an identical lens. So I guess they also used the FTZ adapter for that.

The resolution chart for the Z7 is labeled with the 35/1.8 S-Line, so we know that's what they used. That lens cannot be used with a D850, so there's no way they could have done both tests (the Z7 and the D850) with that lens.

If they did test the Z7 with the same F-mount lens that they used for the D850, they did not present those results. Would be cool if they did someday.

But as you said, the whole system seems to easily outperform the D850 with F-mount lenses. And that again just would prove Nikons statement, the Sensor as well as the whole system has more resolving power and DR than the D850.

Nikon did not say that the sensor has either more resolving power or DR than the D850. (I was at the launch and have received all the media materials for the Z system, so I'm quite sure of this.)

They definitely did claim that the S-Line lenses will set new standards for FF format optics, so, again, I think that's the main takeaway here: the 35/1.8 may be a pretty great lens. (More tests are obviously needed.)

It's also good to keep the JPEG thing in mind. There's no guarantee that the default JPEG processing on the Z7 is the same as on the D850. In fact, it's almost guaranteed that they are different, at least in some ways.

I remember that at the presentation, one guy mentioned that the sensor was slightly improved over the D850.

Hoever, also the processing enginge is different if I am right. So many factors influence such results, of course.

I am very eager to see further test results.

 

[Iliah Borg]

https://www.pdnonline.com/gear/cameras/mirrorless/nikon-z7-camera-review/

I don't mean to take away from the results. They are what they are and it speaks to advances in the Z7.

Technical tests where the margin of error is not stated are not useful.

 

[peripheralfocus]

Different lenses, different JPEG engines.

This isn't a way to compare sensor performances.

I agree there's no lessons here about the sensor.

But I do think the results give a meaningful hint — not proof, by any means, but a suggestive first data point — that the 35/1.8 S-Line may be an exceptionally good lens. I'm filing it away in my "preliminary indications" folder. (Alas, it's a mental folder, and its contents disappear after a week or two, in most cases.)