EOS R + the future of the M-series, looks GREAT!

lumenite · Sep 1, 2018

Gesture said:
Thanks. When I first saw that name, I thought (Leica) M; (Leica) R!

Good observation! To me, your idea is the most persuasive reasoning for Canon's naming.

Now I am looking forward to seeing more EFM prime lenses, like those for Leica M. Not many, but some useful.

R2D2 · Sep 1, 2018

Dareshooter said:
R2D2 said:

This is a good comparison...

And only 5 oz. more than the M5.

Plus it's Magnesium!

Click to expand...

Are these comparison images to scale ? Not sure if my eyes are deceiving me but the hotshoe on the R looks small compared to the hotshoe on the camera to the right.

You're right. Can't be to scale. (This came from Nokishita's website)

A lot of folks will be happier that the camera is actually bigger than this. ;-)

Though it's still much smaller than any other current FF.

R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.

Galleries by Jekyll & Hyde

www.pbase.com

SystemAgnostic · Sep 1, 2018

If the Canon R lenses can't be seamlessly mounted on a Canon M camera, then the upgrade path which many consumers used for a long time with DSLR will not survive to mirrorless. Meaning: buy a crop camera, get more into photography, buy some full frame lenses with your crop camera, eventually get a full frame.

And once you have both full frame and crop - you can use the crop body essentially like a teleconverter - a 1.6 crop on the full frame lens. So your 50mm is almost like two different lenses on different bodies. Or a 70-200 is much different on a crop camera for field sports as compared to on a full frame.

Also - simply the idea of creating one lens which is useful for all consumers on both crop and full frame means you more quickly fill out the lineup.

If they can't share lenses at all, and I have Canon M but want to upgrade to full frame, then there is nothing to share, no reason to stick with Canon. I suppose for flashes, but obviously not for lenses. Granted, people happy with Canon may choose to stick with it, but the financial incentive is limited to flashes.

I think that would be a bad decision by Canon. BUT - my understanding is that the Canon M mount is just too small to accommodate great full frame glass with large apertures. So Canon might now have no alternative but to create a new mount. I think there is a reasonable chance that Canon would create a Canon R to Canon M adapter. But if there is only about 2mm of flange distance, that sounds almost impossible.

MutantLabs · Sep 1, 2018

R2D2 said:
Dareshooter said:

R2D2 said:

This is a good comparison...

And only 5 oz. more than the M5.

Plus it's Magnesium!

Click to expand...

Are these comparison images to scale ? Not sure if my eyes are deceiving me but the hotshoe on the R looks small compared to the hotshoe on the camera to the right.

Click to expand...

You're right. Can't be to scale. (This came from Nokishita's website)

A lot of folks will be happier that the camera is actually bigger than this. ;-)

Though it's still much smaller than any other current FF.

R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.
http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries

I did a quick photoshop-job to match the scale (the EOS-R needs to be increased in size to 124%).

EOS-R increased to 124% of (not in scale) size of original image

somerandomphotog · Sep 1, 2018

MoreorLess said:
jwilliams said:

New mount looks like no way to use M lenses. Oh well, not that many anyway. This is a sure sign that Canon thinks of M as lower end amateur and it will remain that way. The message is go FF if you want any serious lenses.

Click to expand...

I mean most users aren't going to be that interested in using crop lenses on a FF camera are they? the issue is more than you can't use the use FF lenses on the crop camera.

Honestly short term I don't think its that relevant as people using EF lenses on the new camera is obviously a far bigger deal and there aren't even any RF tele lenses people might want to buy to use on an EOS-M.

Long term though it doesn't really seem ideal does it? I spose what you might argue is that long term Canon and Nikon might move entirely to FF if costs carry on coming down and you'll just have a FF RF mount camera as an entry level body.

Maybe but it still SUCKS. Full frame telephotos tend to be quite large, and I was hoping that you could adapt EF-M 55-200mm or EF-S 55-250mm STM glass for situations where you want some telephoto but not too much size/weight like if you're in the mountains and every pound matters.

Although to be fair maybe the EF-to-R adapters will work with EF-S lenses as well. I'm not holding my breath though.

thunder storm · Sep 2, 2018

SystemAgnostic said:
If the Canon R lenses can't be seamlessly mounted on a Canon M camera, then the upgrade path which many consumers used for a long time with DSLR will not survive to mirrorless. Meaning: buy a crop camera, get more into photography, buy some full frame lenses with your crop camera, eventually get a full frame.

And once you have both full frame and crop - you can use the crop body essentially like a teleconverter - a 1.6 crop on the full frame lens. So your 50mm is almost like two different lenses on different bodies. Or a 70-200 is much different on a crop camera for field sports as compared to on a full frame.

Also - simply the idea of creating one lens which is useful for all consumers on both crop and full frame means you more quickly fill out the lineup.

If they can't share lenses at all, and I have Canon M but want to upgrade to full frame, then there is nothing to share, no reason to stick with Canon. I suppose for flashes, but obviously not for lenses. Granted, people happy with Canon may choose to stick with it, but the financial incentive is limited to flashes.

I think that would be a bad decision by Canon. BUT - my understanding is that the Canon M mount is just too small to accommodate great full frame glass with large apertures. So Canon might now have no alternative but to create a new mount. I think there is a reasonable chance that Canon would create a Canon R to Canon M adapter. But if there is only about 2mm of flange distance, that sounds almost impossible.

Agree with this. If it is not possible to mount full frame mirrorless glass on an aps-c mirrorless camera, Canon made a very very very stupid decision. Was it so difficult to create 3mm extra to make an adapter possible?

With both an aps-c and a full frame body a lot of lenses have two functions.

Wildlife photographers use full frame glass on aps-c bodies, and they have good reasons to do so.

Dareshooter · Sep 2, 2018

thunder storm said:
SystemAgnostic said:

If the Canon R lenses can't be seamlessly mounted on a Canon M camera, then the upgrade path which many consumers used for a long time with DSLR will not survive to mirrorless. Meaning: buy a crop camera, get more into photography, buy some full frame lenses with your crop camera, eventually get a full frame.

And once you have both full frame and crop - you can use the crop body essentially like a teleconverter - a 1.6 crop on the full frame lens. So your 50mm is almost like two different lenses on different bodies. Or a 70-200 is much different on a crop camera for field sports as compared to on a full frame.

Also - simply the idea of creating one lens which is useful for all consumers on both crop and full frame means you more quickly fill out the lineup.

If they can't share lenses at all, and I have Canon M but want to upgrade to full frame, then there is nothing to share, no reason to stick with Canon. I suppose for flashes, but obviously not for lenses. Granted, people happy with Canon may choose to stick with it, but the financial incentive is limited to flashes.

I think that would be a bad decision by Canon. BUT - my understanding is that the Canon M mount is just too small to accommodate great full frame glass with large apertures. So Canon might now have no alternative but to create a new mount. I think there is a reasonable chance that Canon would create a Canon R to Canon M adapter. But if there is only about 2mm of flange distance, that sounds almost impossible.

Click to expand...

Agree with this. If it is not possible to mount full frame mirrorless glass on an aps-c mirrorless camera, Canon made a very very very stupid decision. Was it so difficult to create 3mm extra to make an adapter possible?

Is it that big a deal when there's a plethora of EF lenses that can be used with the M system with the adaptor ?

thunder storm said:
With both an aps-c and a full frame body a lot of lenses have two functions.

Wildlife photographers use full frame glass on aps-c bodies, and they have good reasons to do so.

Icestationkilo · Sep 2, 2018

This has to be more like it. The grips must be about the ssame size if they both use the same battery, as has been rumoured.

thunder storm · Sep 2, 2018

Dareshooter said:
thunder storm said:

SystemAgnostic said:

If the Canon R lenses can't be seamlessly mounted on a Canon M camera, then the upgrade path which many consumers used for a long time with DSLR will not survive to mirrorless. Meaning: buy a crop camera, get more into photography, buy some full frame lenses with your crop camera, eventually get a full frame.

And once you have both full frame and crop - you can use the crop body essentially like a teleconverter - a 1.6 crop on the full frame lens. So your 50mm is almost like two different lenses on different bodies. Or a 70-200 is much different on a crop camera for field sports as compared to on a full frame.

Also - simply the idea of creating one lens which is useful for all consumers on both crop and full frame means you more quickly fill out the lineup.

If they can't share lenses at all, and I have Canon M but want to upgrade to full frame, then there is nothing to share, no reason to stick with Canon. I suppose for flashes, but obviously not for lenses. Granted, people happy with Canon may choose to stick with it, but the financial incentive is limited to flashes.

I think that would be a bad decision by Canon. BUT - my understanding is that the Canon M mount is just too small to accommodate great full frame glass with large apertures. So Canon might now have no alternative but to create a new mount. I think there is a reasonable chance that Canon would create a Canon R to Canon M adapter. But if there is only about 2mm of flange distance, that sounds almost impossible.

Click to expand...

Agree with this. If it is not possible to mount full frame mirrorless glass on an aps-c mirrorless camera, Canon made a very very very stupid decision. Was it so difficult to create 3mm extra to make an adapter possible?

Click to expand...

Is it that big a deal when there's a plethora of EF lenses that can be used with the M system with the adaptor ?

No, not as long as up to date EF lenses are available. So it is not a big deal for now, except for those EF lenses which are needing an update 10 years ago, like the famous Canon 50mm gap. And we see exactly how Canon forces you to buy in to a new mount: the update the 50 in the new mount only.

For the other EF lenses it will be a problem in the future when they will be outdated too.

Dareshooter said:
Dareshooter said:

With both an aps-c and a full frame body a lot of lenses have two functions.

Wildlife photographers use full frame glass on aps-c bodies, and they have good reasons to do so.

Click to expand...

thunder storm · Sep 2, 2018

Marco Nero said:
To the Salt Mines?

Of course not my dear, not as long as there is no IBIS.

Dareshooter · Sep 2, 2018

thunder storm said:
Dareshooter said:

thunder storm said:

SystemAgnostic said:

If the Canon R lenses can't be seamlessly mounted on a Canon M camera, then the upgrade path which many consumers used for a long time with DSLR will not survive to mirrorless. Meaning: buy a crop camera, get more into photography, buy some full frame lenses with your crop camera, eventually get a full frame.

And once you have both full frame and crop - you can use the crop body essentially like a teleconverter - a 1.6 crop on the full frame lens. So your 50mm is almost like two different lenses on different bodies. Or a 70-200 is much different on a crop camera for field sports as compared to on a full frame.

Also - simply the idea of creating one lens which is useful for all consumers on both crop and full frame means you more quickly fill out the lineup.

If they can't share lenses at all, and I have Canon M but want to upgrade to full frame, then there is nothing to share, no reason to stick with Canon. I suppose for flashes, but obviously not for lenses. Granted, people happy with Canon may choose to stick with it, but the financial incentive is limited to flashes.

I think that would be a bad decision by Canon. BUT - my understanding is that the Canon M mount is just too small to accommodate great full frame glass with large apertures. So Canon might now have no alternative but to create a new mount. I think there is a reasonable chance that Canon would create a Canon R to Canon M adapter. But if there is only about 2mm of flange distance, that sounds almost impossible.

Click to expand...

Agree with this. If it is not possible to mount full frame mirrorless glass on an aps-c mirrorless camera, Canon made a very very very stupid decision. Was it so difficult to create 3mm extra to make an adapter possible?

Click to expand...

Is it that big a deal when there's a plethora of EF lenses that can be used with the M system with the adaptor ?

Click to expand...

No, not as long as up to date EF lenses are available. So it is not a big deal for now, except for those EF lenses which are needing an update 10 years ago, like the famous Canon 50mm gap. And we see exactly how Canon forces you to buy in to a new mount: the update the 50 in the new mount only.

For the other EF lenses it will be a problem in the future when they will be outdated too.

Canon are not forcing you into anything,just giving you choice. If you don't like the choices that are provided look elsewhere. EF will be around for at least ten years so enjoy what we have now instead of worrying about what the future may bring.

thunder storm · Sep 2, 2018

Dareshooter said:
thunder storm said:

Dareshooter said:

thunder storm said:

SystemAgnostic said:

If the Canon R lenses can't be seamlessly mounted on a Canon M camera, then the upgrade path which many consumers used for a long time with DSLR will not survive to mirrorless. Meaning: buy a crop camera, get more into photography, buy some full frame lenses with your crop camera, eventually get a full frame.

And once you have both full frame and crop - you can use the crop body essentially like a teleconverter - a 1.6 crop on the full frame lens. So your 50mm is almost like two different lenses on different bodies. Or a 70-200 is much different on a crop camera for field sports as compared to on a full frame.

Also - simply the idea of creating one lens which is useful for all consumers on both crop and full frame means you more quickly fill out the lineup.

If they can't share lenses at all, and I have Canon M but want to upgrade to full frame, then there is nothing to share, no reason to stick with Canon. I suppose for flashes, but obviously not for lenses. Granted, people happy with Canon may choose to stick with it, but the financial incentive is limited to flashes.

I think that would be a bad decision by Canon. BUT - my understanding is that the Canon M mount is just too small to accommodate great full frame glass with large apertures. So Canon might now have no alternative but to create a new mount. I think there is a reasonable chance that Canon would create a Canon R to Canon M adapter. But if there is only about 2mm of flange distance, that sounds almost impossible.

Click to expand...

Agree with this. If it is not possible to mount full frame mirrorless glass on an aps-c mirrorless camera, Canon made a very very very stupid decision. Was it so difficult to create 3mm extra to make an adapter possible?

Click to expand...

Is it that big a deal when there's a plethora of EF lenses that can be used with the M system with the adaptor ?

Click to expand...

No, not as long as up to date EF lenses are available. So it is not a big deal for now, except for those EF lenses which are needing an update 10 years ago, like the famous Canon 50mm gap. And we see exactly how Canon forces you to buy in to a new mount: the update the 50 in the new mount only.

For the other EF lenses it will be a problem in the future when they will be outdated too.

Click to expand...

Canon are not forcing you into anything,just giving you choice.

By not giving obvious desireable and needed choices you can force people. I was not talking about the choices Canon gives you, i was talking about the choices Canon does not give you, like giving you not the choice to buy an up to date high quality EF mount 50mm lens.

Dareshooter said:
If you don't like the choices that are provided look elsewhere.

Thank your very wise advice. I needed this.

Dareshooter said:
EF will be around for at least ten years so enjoy what we have now instead of worrying about what the future may bring.

Being around…. yes, but EF lenses will not be updated anymore, at least likely not the ones that could people hold back from buying into the new mount.

Marco Nero · Sep 2, 2018

thunder storm said:
Of course not my dear, not as long as there is no IBIS.

I suspect it's going to be a cold day in Hell before we see IBIS on a Canon system. IBIS was originally created by the OTHER companies who were unable to get around Canon's IS and USM patents. Back in the early 2000s it was amusing to watch those things shake the sensor so hard that it fell off the mount. Someone noted the other day that IBIS isn't suited to larger FF sensors due to the weight+size vs vibration. I don't know.
.
Now Canon's newer lenses offer superior OIS compared to earlier lens releases... and those without this feature generally don't need it (f/1.2 for example). I'd LIKE to see IBIS on a Canon camera but I think it's just wishful thinking from the Sony folks who seem to thingk it's necessary. It might be just me but I don't think Canon will ever introduce it... although I should never-say-never.
.
So far, this is the only IBIS that I've seen that works well with Canon...
.

IBIS with Canon

IBIS with Canon

IBIS with Canon

IBIS with Canon

IBIS with Canon

--
Regards,
Marco Nero.

Plagen · Sep 2, 2018

One thing remaining to find out is the shutter sound.

For many, I guess, it doesn't matter. For me, the sound of M6 shutter is unbearable and it is one of the reasons I tend to use my Fuji x-H1 more nowadays, the sound of which is a music to my ears.

So, remains to be seen, I guess...

Dareshooter · Sep 2, 2018

thunder storm said:
Dareshooter said:

thunder storm said:

Dareshooter said:

thunder storm said:

SystemAgnostic said:

If the Canon R lenses can't be seamlessly mounted on a Canon M camera, then the upgrade path which many consumers used for a long time with DSLR will not survive to mirrorless. Meaning: buy a crop camera, get more into photography, buy some full frame lenses with your crop camera, eventually get a full frame.

And once you have both full frame and crop - you can use the crop body essentially like a teleconverter - a 1.6 crop on the full frame lens. So your 50mm is almost like two different lenses on different bodies. Or a 70-200 is much different on a crop camera for field sports as compared to on a full frame.

Also - simply the idea of creating one lens which is useful for all consumers on both crop and full frame means you more quickly fill out the lineup.

If they can't share lenses at all, and I have Canon M but want to upgrade to full frame, then there is nothing to share, no reason to stick with Canon. I suppose for flashes, but obviously not for lenses. Granted, people happy with Canon may choose to stick with it, but the financial incentive is limited to flashes.

I think that would be a bad decision by Canon. BUT - my understanding is that the Canon M mount is just too small to accommodate great full frame glass with large apertures. So Canon might now have no alternative but to create a new mount. I think there is a reasonable chance that Canon would create a Canon R to Canon M adapter. But if there is only about 2mm of flange distance, that sounds almost impossible.

Click to expand...

Agree with this. If it is not possible to mount full frame mirrorless glass on an aps-c mirrorless camera, Canon made a very very very stupid decision. Was it so difficult to create 3mm extra to make an adapter possible?

Click to expand...

Is it that big a deal when there's a plethora of EF lenses that can be used with the M system with the adaptor ?

Click to expand...

No, not as long as up to date EF lenses are available. So it is not a big deal for now, except for those EF lenses which are needing an update 10 years ago, like the famous Canon 50mm gap. And we see exactly how Canon forces you to buy in to a new mount: the update the 50 in the new mount only.

For the other EF lenses it will be a problem in the future when they will be outdated too.

Click to expand...

Canon are not forcing you into anything,just giving you choice.

Click to expand...

By not giving obvious desireable and needed choices you can force people. I was not talking about the choices Canon gives you, i was talking about the choices Canon does not give you, like giving you not the choice to buy an up to date high quality EF mount 50mm lens.

thunder storm said:

If you don't like the choices that are provided look elsewhere.

Click to expand...

Thank your very wise advice. I needed this.

thunder storm said:

EF will be around for at least ten years so enjoy what we have now instead of worrying about what the future may bring.

Click to expand...

Being around…. yes, but EF lenses will not be updated anymore, at least likely not the ones that could people hold back from buying into the new mount.

Yeah sure.

thunder storm · Sep 2, 2018

Marco Nero said:
thunder storm said:

Of course not my dear, not as long as there is no IBIS.

Click to expand...

I suspect it's going to be a cold day in Hell before we see IBIS on a Canon system. IBIS was originally created by the OTHER companies who were unable to get around Canon's IS and USM patents. Back in the early 2000s it was amusing to watch those things shake the sensor so hard that it fell off the mount. Someone noted the other day that IBIS isn't suited to larger FF sensors due to the weight+size vs vibration. I don't know.
.
Now Canon's newer lenses offer superior OIS compared to earlier lens releases... and those without this feature generally don't need it (f/1.2 for example).

f/1.2 is only usefull if a narrow depth of field is desired. This is not always the case. Furthermore, f/1.2 in stead of f/1.4 does not make up for 3 or more stops like IBIS does.

Marco Nero said:
I'd LIKE to see IBIS on a Canon camera but I think it's just wishful thinking from the Sony folks who seem to thingk it's necessary.

It actually is necessary if you want to do things you can't do without IBIS. Like using 24mm stabilized in your 24-70mm f/2.8 zoom.

Marco Nero said:
It might be just me but I don't think Canon will ever introduce it... although I should never-say-never.

Canon will come up with it, but hold it back for an easy to create upgrade path in the future.

Marco Nero said:
.
So far, this is the only IBIS that I've seen that works well with Canon...

:-D

Marco Nero said:
.

IBIS with Canon

IBIS with Canon

IBIS with Canon

IBIS with Canon

IBIS with Canon

--
Regards,
Marco Nero.

JRET · Sep 2, 2018

Marco Nero said:
thunder storm said:

Of course not my dear, not as long as there is no IBIS.

Click to expand...

I suspect it's going to be a cold day in Hell before we see IBIS on a Canon system. IBIS was originally created by the OTHER companies who were unable to get around Canon's IS and USM patents. Back in the early 2000s it was amusing to watch those things shake the sensor so hard that it fell off the mount. Someone noted the other day that IBIS isn't suited to larger FF sensors due to the weight+size vs vibration. I don't know.
.
Now Canon's newer lenses offer superior OIS compared to earlier lens releases... and those without this feature generally don't need it (f/1.2 for example). I'd LIKE to see IBIS on a Canon camera but I think it's just wishful thinking from the Sony folks who seem to thingk it's necessary. It might be just me but I don't think Canon will ever introduce it... although I should never-say-never.
.
So far, this is the only IBIS that I've seen that works well with Canon...
.

IBIS with Canon

IBIS with Canon

IBIS with Canon

IBIS with Canon

IBIS with Canon

--
Regards,
Marco Nero.

BEST IBIS SOLUTION I'VE SEEN

Ulfric M Douglas · Sep 2, 2018

Marco Nero said:
Marco Nero said:

...

Click to expand...

So far, this is the only IBIS that I've seen that works well with Canon...
.

IBIS with Canon

--
Regards,
Marco Nero.

Very good, here ... have an uptick.

--
Cheksa wrote:
You're evil Ulfric.

Ed P · Sep 3, 2018

Unfortunately the leaked pics were not to scale, so the R is actually bigger than pictured. This can be confirmed by matching the hot shoe size on both.

Still, I agree the form-factor looks very Goldie Locks.

lumenite · Sep 3, 2018

Plagen said:
One thing remaining to find out is the shutter sound.

For many, I guess, it doesn't matter. For me, the sound of M6 shutter is unbearable and it is one of the reasons I tend to use my Fuji x-H1 more nowadays, the sound of which is a music to my ears.

So, remains to be seen, I guess...

I do not like the shutter sound of M5 either.

EOS R + the future of the M-series, looks GREAT!

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