Why are primes larger and heavier than Fs?

rhlpetrus

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015e934845d14a6ca612cd7e920349e9.jpg.png

The 50mm is Z 76x87mm (w/l), 415g

The classical 50mm f/1.8 AF-S is 53x72mm and 186g

This is a huge difference in all aspects, defeating, in my view, the prospect of a lighter alternative. Silent motor? Same design with internal adapter for smaller flange distance?

The difference for 35mm is there, but not as much:

The 35mm Z is 73x86mm, 370g

The 35mm f/1.8 AF-S is 72x72mm and 305g

I'd like comments, but, please, other brand trolls and anti-ML nikonians could stay away, this forum is for those interested in the Z system, not a place for haters.

--
Renato.
OnExposure member
Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 
Maybe it's an improved optical design. In Pentax land, they have just replaced their old 50/1.4 (225g) with a new 50/1.4 model that's 955g!
 
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There are so many questions on this new adventure that have no answer.

We will have to wait to see the way the new cameras behave and then, maybe, we will know Nikon’s objectives.

For the time being I cannot imagine what will happen as far as acceptance and success of the new line.
 
Maybe it's an improved optical design. In Pentax land, they have just replaced their old 50/1.4 (225g) with a new 50/1.4 model that's 955g!
Wow! Lead frame, X-ray proof?
 
015e934845d14a6ca612cd7e920349e9.jpg.png

The 50mm is Z 76x87mm (w/l), 415g

The classical 50mm f/1.8 AF-S is 53x72mm and 186g

This is a huge difference in all aspects, defeating, in my view, the prospect of a lighter alternative. Silent motor? Same design with internal adapter for smaller flange distance?

The difference for 35mm is there, but not as much:

The 35mm Z is 73x86mm, 370g

The 35mm f/1.8 AF-S is 72x72mm and 305g

I'd like comments, but, please, other brand trolls and anti-ML nikonians could stay away, this forum is for those interested in the Z system, not a place for haters.

--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/
Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
I've been scratching my head too, but in the spirit of your opening thread, I'd say it was that modern photography is more demanding.

If you have cameras that can easily focus at the edges of the frame and photographers who are therefore putting their subjects there, then you need edge to edge sharpness. And that usually means bulk.

it probably doesnt help that it is easy to pixel peep compared to years ago.

Then there is the future. As the cameras that almost everyone carries and pays through the nose for (i e their phones) get more sophisticated, the middle ground of the market will get squeezed. The market for people like me who want a small fast prime will get squeezed.

The nose heavy mirrorless will dominate. We will just have to find ways to cope.

We are also seeing the pricing effects of a shrinking interchangeable camera market. These new hulk lenses are not cheap

But then again the world isnt looking for cheap cameras anymore, people seem well prepared to pay an eye watering ammount for their phone, and replace it every couple of years.

It is impossible not to mention other brands, and I hope you don't think this is trolling. Fuji and the MFT systems do offer small fast primes. Ok not as fast as Nikon Sony or Canon fast primes (for the same angle of view and depth of field).

There is a point at which one must ask oneself - and I am asking myself this- If I'm the kind of photographer that wants a 50 f2 on a mirrorless body and wants it small- then I have to look at an x-pro2 and 35 1.4 - can be had used and in almost pristine condition for about £1200.

If price isn't a factor, then a leica cl and 35 1.4 could be had for £4000, but that lense sticks a little too.

Yes yes the Nikon is a far better camera. I use fuji and Nikon and can say with confidence that even my newest and beloved X100f is a complete and utter PITA to use. But they are small and they are sharp and they are reasonably capable.

Anyways, these are all tools, if the best tool is the big tool then it is the big tool.

So the question is, is the best tool the tool I want as my walkaround camera?
 
Because you might get it?

Just yesterday before the press event almost all that everyone wanted to talk about was how the wider opening of the mount would allow for better image quality, specifically calling out corner performance.

That directly implies that there will need to be wider glass elements. This 50mm f/1.8 also has 12 elements in 9 groups, far more than you've ever heard of in that FL and aperture class. More mass of glass and more area to polish drive up production costs, and its $600 price in this product class reinforces that point.

Nikon is making a bold claim for this lens:

"A 50mm f/1.8 like no other / Performance that totally defies expectations

Empowered by the Z system's larger mount, shorter flange distance, raw imaging power and video capabilities, the NIKKOR Z 50mm f/1.8 S will redefine your notion of what a 50mm f/1.8 lens can do"

Lenses with similar performance aspirations are available from Zeiss and Sigma, and they too are large and heavy.

--
Render unto Digital, that which is Digital's,
and unto Analog, that which is Analog's
 
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Check the MTF charts, they are in a different league, very very impressive...

These charts seem to indicate that these lenses are, in terms of image quality, a huge step above the F mount 1.8 lenses, which are good value for money but not stellar. Actually the MTF looks better than the most praised comparable lenses (Sony 55F1.8, various Leicas etc., probably as well than the Sigma Arts as they don't improve that drastically from F1.4 to F1.8), but that is very speculative of course.

The early sample pictures show a bokeh that seems vastly better than the F versions (which are pretty nervous).

So all that for an extra 75g, that sounds like a real treat.
 
015e934845d14a6ca612cd7e920349e9.jpg.png

The 50mm is Z 76x87mm (w/l), 415g

The classical 50mm f/1.8 AF-S is 53x72mm and 186g
FFD delta is 30.5 mm. That's way more than the length difference.
This is a huge difference in all aspects, defeating, in my view, the prospect of a lighter alternative. Silent motor? Same design with internal adapter for smaller flange distance?

The difference for 35mm is there, but not as much:

The 35mm Z is 73x86mm, 370g

The 35mm f/1.8 AF-S is 72x72mm and 305g
FFD delta is 30.5 mm. Also more than the length difference.

Jim
 
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Because you might get it?

Just yesterday before the press event almost all that everyone wanted to talk about was how the wider opening of the mount would allow for better image quality, specifically calling out corner performance.

That directly implies that there will need to be wider glass elements. This 50mm f/1.8 also has 12 elements in 9 groups, far more than you've ever heard of in that FL and aperture class. More mass of glass and more area to polish drive up production costs, and its $600 price in this product class reinforces that point.

Nikon is making a bold claim for this lens:

"A 50mm f/1.8 like no other / Performance that totally defies expectations

Empowered by the Z system's larger mount, shorter flange distance, raw imaging power and video capabilities, the NIKKOR Z 50mm f/1.8 S will redefine your notion of what a 50mm f/1.8 lens can do"

Lenses with similar performance aspirations are available from Zeiss and Sigma, and they too are large and heavy.
 
Check the MTF charts, they are in a different league, very very impressive...

These charts seem to indicate that these lenses are, in terms of image quality, a huge step above the F mount 1.8 lenses, which are good value for money but not stellar. Actually the MTF looks better than the most praised comparable lenses (Sony 55F1.8, various Leicas etc., probably as well than the Sigma Arts as they don't improve that drastically from F1.4 to F1.8), but that is very speculative of course.

The early sample pictures show a bokeh that seems vastly better than the F versions (which are pretty nervous).

So all that for an extra 75g, that sounds like a real treat.
Indeed! Totally in another class.

F 50 1.8

66cbee61313a44d1910a5dc31a2ca22a.jpg.png



Z 50 1.8

893bb4e308084ac0ba2e1f86b9e75f6f.jpg.png

F 58 f/1.4, best "normal" from Nikon.

076dc92324fd4b3793125e44ec3b8c9e.jpg.png



--
Renato.
OnExposure member
Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 
The 50mm is Z 76x87mm (w/l), 415g

The classical 50mm f/1.8 AF-S is 53x72mm and 186g

This is a huge difference in all aspects, defeating, in my view, the prospect of a lighter alternative. Silent motor? Same design with internal adapter for smaller flange distance?
Nikon is going to give you the choices of either the 50mm f1.8 G via the adaptor; or a lens with ED, aspherical, good weather sealing and significantly better image corner quality

https://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/lens/f-mount/singlefocal/normal/af_50mmf_18d/index.htm

https://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/lens/z-mount/z_50mmf18s/spec.htm
 
015e934845d14a6ca612cd7e920349e9.jpg.png

The 50mm is Z 76x87mm (w/l), 415g

The classical 50mm f/1.8 AF-S is 53x72mm and 186g
FFD delta is 30.5 mm. That's way more than the length difference.
This is a huge difference in all aspects, defeating, in my view, the prospect of a lighter alternative. Silent motor? Same design with internal adapter for smaller flange distance?

The difference for 35mm is there, but not as much:

The 35mm Z is 73x86mm, 370g

The 35mm f/1.8 AF-S is 72x72mm and 305g
FFD delta is 30.5 mm. Also more than the length difference.

Jim
From the MTF, the 50 f/1.8 is in a class by itself, as some commented above:

e176bff0d00442cfb9a331157160d387.jpg.png

Here is the Zeiss Otus 58, not sure if comparable.

c8470ad08b0b4c468edd3085b12dc76d.jpg.png
 
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If the claim is supported by great performance, no problem, maybe they will be actually better wrt bokeh and other characteristics, like CA. And, likely, we will see more compact lenses coming from both Nikon and 3rd party makers. Not worried, actually, just curious, here. Thanks for quote.
Without any doubt this product line is going to be interesting to watch for multiple reasons.

Pure speculation on my part but grounded in product development experience: future optical design efforts at Nikon will be loaded towards the Z side and possibly pulled away from F. Independent from the priority directives that come down from above (which must be obeyed), I can imagine that the engineers have been enjoying the somewhat increased freedom offered by Z. This has to be an exciting time for them. Good things can germinate in that kind of environment. It's up to them.
 
If the claim is supported by great performance, no problem, maybe they will be actually better wrt bokeh and other characteristics, like CA. And, likely, we will see more compact lenses coming from both Nikon and 3rd party makers. Not worried, actually, just curious, here. Thanks for quote.
Without any doubt this product line is going to be interesting to watch for multiple reasons.

Pure speculation on my part but grounded in product development experience: future optical design efforts at Nikon will be loaded towards the Z side and possibly pulled away from F. Independent from the priority directives that come down from above (which must be obeyed), I can imagine that the engineers have been enjoying the somewhat increased freedom offered by Z. This has to be an exciting time for them. Good things can germinate in that kind of environment. It's up to them.
I checked the MTF curves for the 50mm and, OMG, they are in the Zeiss Otus league (see below). For 600 USD, these are bargains! And it seems the weather sealing is also excellent.

So, indeed, we are talking here great optical opportunities for Nikon.
 
As already noted, it's probably due to image quality. 35mm and 50mm are key lenses for any lineup, and I'd guess they want something to brag about.

That said, I think they missed an opportunity to leverage mirrorless to result in a small package. They could have issued the same 50mm (to show off high quality), and a good quality pancake 35mm in the 200g range easy.
 
If the claim is supported by great performance, no problem, maybe they will be actually better wrt bokeh and other characteristics, like CA. And, likely, we will see more compact lenses coming from both Nikon and 3rd party makers. Not worried, actually, just curious, here. Thanks for quote.
Without any doubt this product line is going to be interesting to watch for multiple reasons.

Pure speculation on my part but grounded in product development experience: future optical design efforts at Nikon will be loaded towards the Z side and possibly pulled away from F.
F is dead.

At this point, what new F lenses does Nikon need to release anyway?
 
As already noted, it's probably due to image quality. 35mm and 50mm are key lenses for any lineup, and I'd guess they want something to brag about.

That said, I think they missed an opportunity to leverage mirrorless to result in a small package. They could have issued the same 50mm (to show off high quality), and a good quality pancake 35mm in the 200g range easy.
I don't think so, see above MTF charts, they are built at another level, I had missed that. They may eventually launch a pancake, but these are not run-of-the-mill basic lenses, they are in the Otus class.
 
Check the MTF charts, they are in a different league, very very impressive...

These charts seem to indicate that these lenses are, in terms of image quality, a huge step above the F mount 1.8 lenses, which are good value for money but not stellar. Actually the MTF looks better than the most praised comparable lenses (Sony 55F1.8, various Leicas etc., probably as well than the Sigma Arts as they don't improve that drastically from F1.4 to F1.8), but that is very speculative of course.

The early sample pictures show a bokeh that seems vastly better than the F versions (which are pretty nervous).

So all that for an extra 75g, that sounds like a real treat.
Indeed! Totally in another class.

F 50 1.8

66cbee61313a44d1910a5dc31a2ca22a.jpg.png

Z 50 1.8

893bb4e308084ac0ba2e1f86b9e75f6f.jpg.png

F 58 f/1.4, best "normal" from Nikon.

076dc92324fd4b3793125e44ec3b8c9e.jpg.png
These are wide open. So, not a level playing field. The 58/1.4 was not designed to have good-looking MTF charts, and it doesn't. Are these simulated or measured?

Jim

--
 
Check the MTF charts, they are in a different league, very very impressive...

These charts seem to indicate that these lenses are, in terms of image quality, a huge step above the F mount 1.8 lenses, which are good value for money but not stellar. Actually the MTF looks better than the most praised comparable lenses (Sony 55F1.8, various Leicas etc., probably as well than the Sigma Arts as they don't improve that drastically from F1.4 to F1.8), but that is very speculative of course.

The early sample pictures show a bokeh that seems vastly better than the F versions (which are pretty nervous).

So all that for an extra 75g, that sounds like a real treat.
Indeed! Totally in another class.

F 50 1.8

66cbee61313a44d1910a5dc31a2ca22a.jpg.png

Z 50 1.8

893bb4e308084ac0ba2e1f86b9e75f6f.jpg.png

F 58 f/1.4, best "normal" from Nikon.

076dc92324fd4b3793125e44ec3b8c9e.jpg.png
These are wide open. So, not a level playing field. The 58/1.4 was not designed to have good-looking MTF charts, and it doesn't. Are these simulated or measured?

Jim
Likely simulated, from Nikon site itself.

--
Renato.
OnExposure member
Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 
If the claim is supported by great performance, no problem, maybe they will be actually better wrt bokeh and other characteristics, like CA. And, likely, we will see more compact lenses coming from both Nikon and 3rd party makers. Not worried, actually, just curious, here. Thanks for quote.
Without any doubt this product line is going to be interesting to watch for multiple reasons.

Pure speculation on my part but grounded in product development experience: future optical design efforts at Nikon will be loaded towards the Z side and possibly pulled away from F. Independent from the priority directives that come down from above (which must be obeyed), I can imagine that the engineers have been enjoying the somewhat increased freedom offered by Z. This has to be an exciting time for them. Good things can germinate in that kind of environment. It's up to them.
I checked the MTF curves for the 50mm and, OMG, they are in the Zeiss Otus league (see below).
I think those charts may be apples and oranges. Frequencies, Sim vs measured? Anybody know the truth?

Jim
 

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