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Travel & DJI regional flight control restrictions

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Andy Blanchard

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So I'm in the market for a drone (probably the Mavic II, if DJI release it any time soon - and yes, I've seen news of DJI's July 18th event) and was wondering if anyone could clarify how the geo-location based flight controls work when travelling overseas.

In an ideal world, I'd like to think that the drone will automatically adopt any local flight altitude restrictions and do it's best to prevent me flying where I shouldn't like near airfields etc., based entirely on GPS. However, I've also seen several references to "logging in" upon arrival in a new country, so I'm looking for a more definitive answer on this as some of the locations I'll be taking it are not going to have readily available Internet access, so if I need to login beforehand I'd like to know about it!

Also, if there are any options for overriding flight restrictions in the field and flying on my own recognisance if all else fails, with or without Internet access, any pointers/info on that would be useful too. I've also no objections to applicable aviation authority registration etc., if that helps with anything.

Finally, a corner case, but what happens if you fly a drone over a cliff that exceeds the local altitude limit? I take it you can't end up in a scenario where you're looking down on the drone, but are not able to increase it's altitude to a point where you can get it back over the cliff again?

Andy
 
Solution
A
Andy Blanchard said:
So I'm in the market for a drone (probably the Mavic II, if DJI release it any time soon - and yes, I've seen news of DJI's July 18th event) and was wondering if anyone could clarify how the geo-location based flight controls work when travelling overseas.

In an ideal world, I'd like to think that the drone will automatically adopt any local flight altitude restrictions and do it's best to prevent me flying where I shouldn't like near airfields etc., based entirely on GPS. However, I've also seen several references to "logging in" upon arrival in a new country, so I'm looking for a more definitive answer on this as some of the locations I'll be taking it are not going to have readily available Internet access, so if I need to login...
Click to expand...
Andy Blanchard said:
Finally, a corner case, but what happens if you fly a drone over a cliff that exceeds the local altitude limit? I take it you can't end up in a scenario where you're looking down on the drone, but are not able to increase it's altitude to a point where you can get it back over the cliff again?
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Isn't altitude based on above sea level, and not above ground?
 
The question about flying down from a cliff is a bit of a trick question. However, I think that the word altitude means elevation change from the level of take off. Negative altitude in this definition would not be relevant. If this were not the definition, then it would be illegal to take off from points above 400 feet above sea level.
 
kayaker353 said:
The question about flying down from a cliff is a bit of a trick question. However, I think that the word altitude means elevation change from the level of take off. Negative altitude in this definition would not be relevant. If this were not the definition, then it would be illegal to take off from points above 400 feet above sea level.
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In the context of drones, flight altitude *restrictions* seem to be stated in terms of above ground level rather than above sea level, which is the figure usually quoted for the altitude of aircraft. However, it seems to be open to interpretation as to whether that means based on the location of the pilot and controller, or on the location of the drone.

The "trick" question is more to do with whether the drone measures the maximum permitted altitude based on the drone's altitude or the controller's and occurred to me while standing atop a near vertical 750m sea cliff last week and thinking what a cool shot it would be from out over the water. I can see reasons for both styles of implementation; you'd need it to be based on the controller to get a shot looking back at those sea cliffs, but the former would be required to prevent some idiot placing a drone in the path of a low-flying fighter jet somewhere like the UK's "Mach Loop". I'm assuming the implementation would be based on the location of the controller and relying on common sense for the rest, just to avoid lost drones, but it's always a good idea to check these things before you find out the hard way that you've assumed incorrectly.

Andy
 
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I have a Phantom 4. I have learned that DJI software definitely has its own personality. I think that the altitude sensor is on the aircraft, so It would measure altitude changes from the launch point. The question of flying below the launch altitude is interesting from the viewpoint of how much lower would the controller allow. I do not have a good place to test this. The controller limits positive altitude changes to 400 feet, so what would it do in the other direction? This is all product dependent regardless of the official rhetoric on the subject.
 
kayaker353 said:
I have a Phantom 4. I have learned that DJI software definitely has its own personality. I think that the altitude sensor is on the aircraft, so It would measure altitude changes from the launch point. The question of flying below the launch altitude is interesting from the viewpoint of how much lower would the controller allow. I do not have a good place to test this. The controller limits positive altitude changes to 400 feet, so what would it do in the other direction? This is all product dependent regardless of the official rhetoric on the subject.
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Thanks for the response. Definitely think that the large amount of variation in national restrictions and general lack of specifics has led drone vendors to interpret things in their own ways. Good point about this being model specific too; all models from a given vendor are probably similar - if not identical - but that definitely need not be guaranteed.

My take is that the drone *must* have both GPS and altitude sensors on-board, or many of the intelligent flight functions simply wouldn't work, and it'll also know its take off location/altitude for return home functions. I guess it all hinges on whether the link to the controller's location/altitude is dynamic and/or relative. There are drone shots taken in scenarios like the sea cliffs example, but without knowing the model of drone, whether it was done with a commercial license and an "unlocked" drone, or how/where the drone was recovered, that doesn't really help with a definitive answer.

Given it seems like it could be model dependant I suppose I could ask DJI once I've bought it, assuming that's the way I go, but it does seem like the safest option is going to be to suck it and see, even if I do get an answer from DJI.

Andy
 
Andy Blanchard said:
So I'm in the market for a drone (probably the Mavic II, if DJI release it any time soon - and yes, I've seen news of DJI's July 18th event) and was wondering if anyone could clarify how the geo-location based flight controls work when travelling overseas.

In an ideal world, I'd like to think that the drone will automatically adopt any local flight altitude restrictions and do it's best to prevent me flying where I shouldn't like near airfields etc., based entirely on GPS. However, I've also seen several references to "logging in" upon arrival in a new country, so I'm looking for a more definitive answer on this as some of the locations I'll be taking it are not going to have readily available Internet access, so if I need to login beforehand I'd like to know about it!

Also, if there are any options for overriding flight restrictions in the field and flying on my own recognisance if all else fails, with or without Internet access, any pointers/info on that would be useful too. I've also no objections to applicable aviation authority registration etc., if that helps with anything.

Finally, a corner case, but what happens if you fly a drone over a cliff that exceeds the local altitude limit? I take it you can't end up in a scenario where you're looking down on the drone, but are not able to increase it's altitude to a point where you can get it back over the cliff again?

Andy
Click to expand...
When you start up the drone in a different country it checks the region and reboots the drone with the correct settings (signal strength and potentially disabling / enabling transmission frequencies as required) If required (this is currently optional).

The app has restrictions build in, these aren't updated to reflect local laws and it's down to you the pilot to know these.

Altitude is based of the take of point, so you can fly over a cliff and back, this is normally the case when filming skiing as the ski slope goes down from the take off point.
 
Solution
Alex Ridgway said:
Andy Blanchard said:
So I'm in the market for a drone (probably the Mavic II, if DJI release it any time soon - and yes, I've seen news of DJI's July 18th event) and was wondering if anyone could clarify how the geo-location based flight controls work when travelling overseas.

In an ideal world, I'd like to think that the drone will automatically adopt any local flight altitude restrictions and do it's best to prevent me flying where I shouldn't like near airfields etc., based entirely on GPS. However, I've also seen several references to "logging in" upon arrival in a new country, so I'm looking for a more definitive answer on this as some of the locations I'll be taking it are not going to have readily available Internet access, so if I need to login beforehand I'd like to know about it!

Also, if there are any options for overriding flight restrictions in the field and flying on my own recognisance if all else fails, with or without Internet access, any pointers/info on that would be useful too. I've also no objections to applicable aviation authority registration etc., if that helps with anything.

Finally, a corner case, but what happens if you fly a drone over a cliff that exceeds the local altitude limit? I take it you can't end up in a scenario where you're looking down on the drone, but are not able to increase it's altitude to a point where you can get it back over the cliff again?

Andy
Click to expand...
When you start up the drone in a different country it checks the region and reboots the drone with the correct settings (signal strength and potentially disabling / enabling transmission frequencies as required) If required (this is currently optional).

The app has restrictions build in, these aren't updated to reflect local laws and it's down to you the pilot to know these.

Altitude is based of the take of point, so you can fly over a cliff and back, this is normally the case when filming skiing as the ski slope goes down from the take off point.
Click to expand...
Excellent; I think that about covers it. Pretty much as I thought on the flight operation, although I was maybe expecting a little more from the software on local regs. than there appears to be towards enforcement of the local rules. Still, checking local regs. is a good idea for photographers anyway (esp. what you can/can't shoot) so adding drone regs. to the pre-trip checklist is just common sense.

Andy
 
Altitude restrictions are based on the ground level below the drone. In the USA, the ceiling for drone flights is 400 ft above ground level and allows for flying up to 400 ft above a building or other features within a 400 ft distance of the feature. So, if you fly over the drop off of a cliff, you can stay 400 ft above the level of the top of the cliff out for 400 ft away from the cliff. After that, you'd need to descend to within 400 ft of the ground. On the way back, once within 400 ft. of the cliff, you can ascend to 400 ft above the altitude of the top of the cliff. This allows for following terrain and flying over buildings, radio towers, etc. and lets you return to the take off point. The reason for the 400 ft altitude limit is for safety relative to other air traffic. If you could take off from the top of a 2000 ft mountain and then fly miles away at 2400 ft. just because you started at the top of the mountain, you'd be in air space that manned aircraft could be flying in and that would definitely be a problem.
 
I was recently reading the New Zealand drone regulations, which are pretty extensive and specific, and they address the topic of flying over descending terrain. They say as you fly over lower terrain the drone altitude must be decreased to maintain 400 feet (or the metric equivalent) over the ground. I don't know that they cover the case of a steep cliff, although they might, I didn't dig deep enough in the regulations.

DJI drones use GPS altitude to measure and display the difference between the take off point altitude and the current drone altitude. Over descending terrain you would need to estimate the altitude difference from the take off point, and subtract this from the indicated altitude.
 
According to the FAA rules the take off altitude represents your Baseline. So if you're taking off from a 750 ft mountain top you can fly up to 400 feet above that 750 feet above sea level because it's based on local ground position. With regard to Flying higher than 400 feet above ground level you can do so in the presence of tall objects like radio towers. You can fly up to 400 feet above a building or Tower and you have to fly that altitude within 400 feet of that obstacle. And other words there's an area around at all obstacle at which you can observe that additional altitude. Aircraft have to give a 400-foot birth around tall towers so that creates a cylinder of taller altitude that you can fly in around those tall objects.
 
Mark Weiss said:
According to the FAA rules the take off altitude represents your Baseline. So if you're taking off from a 750 ft mountain top you can fly up to 400 feet above that 750 feet above sea level because it's based on local ground position. With regard to Flying higher than 400 feet above ground level you can do so in the presence of tall objects like radio towers. You can fly up to 400 feet above a building or Tower and you have to fly that altitude within 400 feet of that obstacle. And other words there's an area around at all obstacle at which you can observe that additional altitude. Aircraft have to give a 400-foot birth around tall towers so that creates a cylinder of taller altitude that you can fly in around those tall objects.
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That's the only sensible implementation, otherwise the drone simply couldn't fly back to the launch point. 1 foot from the edge of the clip, your altitude related to the ground might be 1000 feet, and you have to descend 600' to collect your hovering bird... Haven't heard about such an accident from any countries (=firmware restricitons)
 
Charles Hull said:
I was recently reading the New Zealand drone regulations, which are pretty extensive and specific, and they address the topic of flying over descending terrain. They say as you fly over lower terrain the drone altitude must be decreased to maintain 400 feet (or the metric equivalent) over the ground. I don't know that they cover the case of a steep cliff, although they might, I didn't dig deep enough in the regulations.

DJI drones use GPS altitude to measure and display the difference between the take off point altitude and the current drone altitude. Over descending terrain you would need to estimate the altitude difference from the take off point, and subtract this from the indicated altitude.
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Question is, who's going to enforce this?

Are cops going to know how high your drone is flying or how much above the takeoff point it's flown?

Or are cops in "restricted zones" more on the lookout for drones than in areas without restrictions?

I would imagine in national parks, park rangers would know you're not allowed to fly period. But if they spot a drone, are they going to be able to chase down where the pilot is?

I'm not advocating breaking laws or anything. Just curious how they're going to enforce.

I was taking pictures at the Gap Bluff, which is near the entrance to Sydney Harbor. Scenic place with cliffs overlooking the Tasman Sea. There are signs saying no drone takeoffs or landings.

OK but I didn't see any officials and that area has kilometers of walking paths between there and towards Bondi, so not easily patrolled. But just about all of the Sydney area, including the harbor, is controlled airspace, with heliports and national parks.
 
Here is my advice:

follow all flight safety regulations at least in terms of no fly zones etc. Be wary of stretching any faa rules. Be careful and cautious.

Beyond that hat people seem to think that it is illegal to fly a drone everywhere. There has been so many times that random people have taken it upon themselves to tell me “you can’t fly that here” without any substantive reason. So my main recommendation is to just avoid places with people and staff.

In europe i would say you are mostly fine if you avoid controlled airspace and military installlations. In oppressive regimes I would avoid any place which could be deemed sensitive.

regardless you may want to avoid publishing photos online to avoid and post photography hassle.
 
SafariBob said:
Here is my advice:

follow all flight safety regulations at least in terms of no fly zones etc. Be wary of stretching any faa rules. Be careful and cautious.

Beyond that hat people seem to think that it is illegal to fly a drone everywhere. There has been so many times that random people have taken it upon themselves to tell me “you can’t fly that here” without any substantive reason. So my main recommendation is to just avoid places with people and staff.

In europe i would say you are mostly fine if you avoid controlled airspace and military installlations. In oppressive regimes I would avoid any place which could be deemed sensitive.

regardless you may want to avoid publishing photos online to avoid and post photography hassle.
Click to expand...
Pretty sensible. I'd generally start with seeing what restrictions a given country places on photography in general; if they don't want you photographing things with a regular camera, then the same will obviously apply to drones. After that, it should just be a case of seeing what specific no-fly zones are in place and legally you should be good.

Of course, you're still going to get the occassional situation where a local is mis-informed about whether or not you can legally fly in a given area (or just NIMBYism), in which case you'll need to use judgement in how you deal with that. I've always tended to find that a hard copy of the local legislation (ideally in any applicable languages) is a pretty good thing to have handy when photographing with a conventional camera, so adding a no-fly map to that for drone usage might be useful too.

Andy
 
I'm thinking of getting a Mavic Air drone, my first, before an upcoming trip. I've roughly determined that 2500 miles of this trip will be in a region that has no cell phone service of any kind, which means days and days of travel with no possibility of getting online. Will the DJI refuse to fly if it can't get online to download restriction information?
 
wb2trf said:
I'm thinking of getting a Mavic Air drone, my first, before an upcoming trip. I've roughly determined that 2500 miles of this trip will be in a region that has no cell phone service of any kind, which means days and days of travel with no possibility of getting online. Will the DJI refuse to fly if it can't get online to download restriction information?
Click to expand...
I ended up getting DJI's Mavic 2 Pro, so will work very similar to the DJI Air.

NFZ information is periodically downloaded as part of firmware updates or standalone updates and stored on the drone. If it can't get online, then it just won't be able to update the NFZ info - or even know it needs to - and use the existing data. You could check for updates when you can, ideally over WiFi as some of the updates can be quite large, but even that wouldn't be necessary for the few weeks of a trip.

All you need to fly is a good radio connection between the drone and the RC, cellular coverage is definitely not required although it does enable a few additional, mostly cosmetic, features. You gain more functionality with a GPS lock, and it's definitely wait until you acquire that before taking off for RTH functionality, but even that isn't required in a pinch. Because all the communication between the phone and RC happens over the USB cable, you can actually have the phone in flight mode and still have full flight control (which is generally a good idea anyway to save battery and avoid any expensive roaming charges).

Andy
 
Mark Weiss said:
Beware that the NFZ info is always expanding, so if your drone works now, and you update it, you might lose the ability to fly in your own yard.
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Yeah, we've just had a major expansion around airports here in the UK - won't be getting that land back to fly over unless the airport closes down. Mandatory pilot registration and serial numbers on the aircraft are all coming later in the year. Probably just a matter of time before transponders are required too.

Still, like the GGP's trip judging by the "no mobile coverage" comment, I prefer the open countryside. Despite the slippery slope of growing NFZs it's probably going to be quite a while before I run out of those, especially since I like to travel with my drone as well. My advice would be to fly as much as possible, enjoy it while you can and, if/when the red tape gets too much for you, at least you'll have had as much enjoyment out of it as you could.

Andy
 
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