Photography at University - Advice for someone starting out/What you would have done differently

Piper and Lamb · Apr 10, 2018

Hi all. I'm recently began a Bachelor of Photography in Brisbane, Australia.

I'd love to get feedback and thoughts from the members of this forum who have had a formal education in photography, how useful it was to them, or what advice they have for someone just starting out.

My first year is designed for fine arts students who aren't sure what they're majoring in (it's all a bit general), so it feels like I have a year before the photography side of the degree really kicks off (and choosing a major [Advertising, Journalism, Fine Art Photography]).

What do you wish you had learned in your first year(s) of university? Or rather, what do you wish you had learned earlier?

What knowledge became fundamental?

Did you start finding photo work during your degree, or immediately after?

Are the contacts you made in university important?

Lastly: do you feel that a formal education in photography equipped you for the real-world realities of being a photographer? If you don't mind sharing, what do you do now for a living?

As an aside, I'm looking to double major in advertising and journalism. They feels like polar opposites, but together they would cover a large chunk of the professional world.

I really want to make a living as a photographer. I'm 24. What are the next steps I should be taking?

Cheers.

tbcass · Apr 10, 2018

TBH I would think you would be better off getting a degree in something more practical and having photography as your minor. I can't fathom what use a Bachelors degree in photography would have when the vast majority of photographers learned on their own or while working for a photographer. Probably most of the classes would involve photographic history and the study of famous photographers.

Virtual Photon · Apr 10, 2018

Unless you want to work at an auction house, museum or gallery, working in photography is about portfolio - not degree credits. No art director, wedding planner or editor is going to ask what courses you took.

Michael Fryd · Apr 10, 2018

What is your goal? Why are you getting a degree in photography?

If you want to be an artist, then it may be a good thing.

If you want to work as a photographer for someone else, then it won't help. Those jobs will be gone in a few years. What few that are left will be based on your willingness to work dirt cheap, and your ability to deliver, not your certifications.

If you want to have your own photography business, then you should switch majors and get a business degree with a minor in marketing. A successful photography business has far more to do with your business skills than your photographic skills. The challenge is convincing people that they should pay you, when they think they can get the same thing for free from their new iPhone. You need to be able to up-sell customers to large wall prints, prints on metal/acrylic, etc.

I've seem great photographers go bankrupt because they didn't understand the business aspects. I've seen mediocre and poor photographers make a good living because they understand how to market and run a business.

hotdog321 · Apr 10, 2018

I've got a bachelors and masters in photojournalism from an accredited program at the University of Texas at Austin. I took every class available in photography: fine art, studio, layout and design, history, photojournalism, advertising, media law and ethics and did a masters thesis on ethics in photojournalism. Back when I started out (around 1980) a degree (preferably in photography or pj) was required to get a newspaper staff job.

That said, my first three years of actual field work was a huge eye-opener. Every single day I would pick up 2 or 3 new techniques and discover pitfalls and potential disasters. Education is great and provides a firm foundation for a serious professional career, but actual work in the field is key to building your knowledge base, portfolio and building confidence.

I spent the last 35+ years working as a staff photographer for small then huge newspapers, then freelancing for wire services and magazines and PR. I've absolutely loved my career.

My advice would be to not only gain an education, but take every chance you can get to do real assignments with real deadlines and expectations, hopefully with an occasional paycheck.

pgb · Apr 10, 2018

You should acquire some video skills as well. Three years is too long for photography.

It's all very competitive but one area where a friend is makng reasonable money after several years is corporate videos but he had a good contact in advertising when he
started out and really knows After Effects.

Krav Maga · Apr 10, 2018

Michael Fryd said:
What is your goal? Why are you getting a degree in photography?

If you want to be an artist, then it may be a good thing.

If you want to work as a photographer for someone else, then it won't help. Those jobs will be gone in a few years. What few that are left will be based on your willingness to work dirt cheap, and your ability to deliver, not your certifications.

If you want to have your own photography business, then you should switch majors and get a business degree with a minor in marketing. A successful photography business has far more to do with your business skills than your photographic skills. The challenge is convincing people that they should pay you, when they think they can get the same thing for free from their new iPhone. You need to be able to up-sell customers to large wall prints, prints on metal/acrylic, etc.

I've seem great photographers go bankrupt because they didn't understand the business aspects. I've seen mediocre and poor photographers make a good living because they understand how to market and run a business.

^^^ Pretty much this.

I know a few "professional" photographers; they own their own studios, do lots of paid gigs etc. Not a single one has a photography or art related degree. The only one that does have a degree, their degree is business. Yes, I've asked them and it has been a subject of conversation.

If you are planning to be a "pro" photographer I bet you'd be better served getting an assistant gig with a good working photographer.

In short: If I were 24 and wanted to take a stab at being a working pro photographer I would make my first priority getting an assistant job with a working photographer. A business degree would be more useful than a BS in photography by far.

riveredger · Apr 10, 2018

hotdog321 said:
I've got a bachelors and masters in photojournalism from an accredited program at the University of Texas at Austin. I took every class available in photography: fine art, studio, layout and design, history, photojournalism, advertising, media law and ethics and did a masters thesis on ethics in photojournalism. Back when I started out (around 1980) a degree (preferably in photography or pj) was required to get a newspaper staff job.

That said, my first three years of actual field work was a huge eye-opener. Every single day I would pick up 2 or 3 new techniques and discover pitfalls and potential disasters. Education is great and provides a firm foundation for a serious professional career, but actual work in the field is key to building your knowledge base, portfolio and building confidence.

I spent the last 35+ years working as a staff photographer for small then huge newspapers, then freelancing for wire services and magazines and PR. I've absolutely loved my career.

My advice would be to not only gain an education, but take every chance you can get to do real assignments with real deadlines and expectations, hopefully with an occasional paycheck.

fishy wishy · Apr 10, 2018

I know there are some nations that employ market-control measures like certificates before anyone can hawk themselves as a 'proper' photographer, but mainly it is decided by the market. If you can get anyone to like your photos and then to pay for your photos, that's all you need to get going. You could probably do that right now. Taking a 3 year degree course for it sounds a long and expensive way to try to pick up anyone else's ideas.

Sorry but that's how I feel (having known photography graduates working for minimum wage in camera shops).

Michael Fryd · Apr 10, 2018

riveredger said:
riveredger said:

...

Click to expand...

Do you think this would apply to a student in 2018, though? The job market for photo journalists is not what it was in the 80s!

My understanding is that the 2018 requirements for a "photo journalist" is a reporter who knows how to take photos with an iPhone.

If you want a photo journalist job in today's market, you need to learn how to be a reporter. Photographic skills are a plus, but not a requirement.

hotdog321 · Apr 10, 2018

riveredger said:
hotdog321 said:

I've got a bachelors and masters in photojournalism from an accredited program at the University of Texas at Austin. I took every class available in photography: fine art, studio, layout and design, history, photojournalism, advertising, media law and ethics and did a masters thesis on ethics in photojournalism. Back when I started out (around 1980) a degree (preferably in photography or pj) was required to get a newspaper staff job.

That said, my first three years of actual field work was a huge eye-opener. Every single day I would pick up 2 or 3 new techniques and discover pitfalls and potential disasters. Education is great and provides a firm foundation for a serious professional career, but actual work in the field is key to building your knowledge base, portfolio and building confidence.

I spent the last 35+ years working as a staff photographer for small then huge newspapers, then freelancing for wire services and magazines and PR. I've absolutely loved my career.

My advice would be to not only gain an education, but take every chance you can get to do real assignments with real deadlines and expectations, hopefully with an occasional paycheck.

--
photojournalist
http://craighartley.zenfolio.com/

Click to expand...

Do you think this would apply to a student in 2018, though? The job market for photo journalists is not what it was in the 80s!

No, unfortunately I agree. Still, I'm a firm believer in getting an educational foundation while learning business, Photoshop, video, maybe drone photography and writing.

Just about anyone with enough moxie and hustle can earn a living with a camera; plenty of people do. But if someone wants to create a firm foundation for a serious professional career, I can't help but feel that a structured education provides the best pathway.

Shrug. Not arguing. It's just I've seen a photographers get trapped into shooting a single specialty and spend years doing a job they really aren't very happy with before finally quitting altogether. A broad education provides more outlets. I've done everything from hang out of helicopters to photograph rocket launches to wade chest deep though flood waters to work in studios or shoot mugshots and fashion and press conferences; I absolutely love the variety!

--
photojournalist
http://craighartley.zenfolio.com/

Joe Pineapples II · Apr 10, 2018

tbcass said:
TBH I would think you would be better off getting a degree in something more practical and having photography as your minor. I can't fathom what use a Bachelors degree in photography would have when the vast majority of photographers learned on their own or while working for a photographer. Probably most of the classes would involve photographic history and the study of famous photographers.

So you’re saying that you have no idea what’s involved in a Bachelor of Photography degree, but you’re happy to offer career advice about it? That’s like the definition of bad advice!

J.

Wheatfield7 · Apr 10, 2018

If you want to be a pro photographer, the photography is almost secondary. What you really need to know is human relations, marketing, selling, fundamentals of running a successful business, etc.

Ellis Vener · Apr 10, 2018

Piper and Lamb said:
HPiper and Lamb wrote:

Hi all. I'm recently began a Bachelor of Photography in Brisbane, Australia.

I'd love to get feedback and thoughts from the members of this forum who have had a formal education in photography, how useful it was to them, or what advice they have for someone just starting out.

My first year is designed for fine arts students who aren't sure what they're majoring in (it's all a bit general), so it feels like I have a year before the photography side of the degree really kicks off (and choosing a major [Advertising, Journalism, Fine Art Photography]).
What do you wish you had learned in your first year(s) of university? Or rather, what do you wish you had learned earlier?

What knowledge became fundamental?

vWhat I learned about photography from college courses is somewhat different from what I taught the last time I taught. Here is what I think you have to know, and not in this order.

tbe fundamentals:

what is meant by good exposure

how to see, control, and create light and color to create the emotional, aesthetic, and intellectual you or your client desire.

Using meta-data to encode in a digital.image file the information about you and the subject.

What makes an image unique and what makes your photography unique.

the value of always meeting your deadlines.

the over-riding importance of just simply doing the work.

Business skills: some people are more talented at doing business than others, but even so, the skills involvexd in taking care of business, no matter what fields of photography you plow, can be learned.

Timing. I have a pretty good sense of timing and reflexes. Timing is about anticipation and the ability to see a potential composition that will be completed by the right gesture. I honed these skills by studying the work of painters, other photographers work, photographing sports, listening intently to music, and (I kid you not) playing pinball.

How to severely edit. By editing I mean the art of culling out the photos which are almost but not quite there. For every great photo you make their will be 1000 or 10000 discards. It’s not about hammering the shutter release or “spray and pray” it’s about learning how to make an image that does a better job than another at visually communicating an idea.

the formal technical bits:

-the interplay of lens focal length, aperture, shutter-speed, and sensitivity (ISO).

the fundamentals of raw image processing and the basics of post-processing especially learning how to use layers.

Color management.

Piper and Lamb said:
Did you start finding photo work during your degree, or immediately after?

i started finding work as a photographer before I studied photography.

Piper and Lamb said:
Are the contacts you made in university important?

Yes.

Piper and Lamb said:
Lastly: do you feel that a formal education in photography equipped you for the real-world realities of being a photographer?

What I didn’t do -and I think it was a big mistake -was not study business.

Piper and Lamb said:
If you don't mind sharing, what do you do now for a living?

i do the same thing I have done since 1984: work as an advertising/commercial/industrial/editorial photographer

Piper and Lamb said:
As an aside, I'm looking to double major in advertising and journalism. They feels like polar opposites, but together they would cover a large chunk of the professional world.

they are philosophical opposites. You certainly can do both editorial and advertising photography but your skills as an editorial photographer will be more valuable as an advertising photographer than vice-versa.

Piper and Lamb said:
I really want to make a living as a photographer. I'm 24. What are the next steps I should be taking?

Reading “The War Of Art” and “Turning Pro” by Stephen Pressfield,

Piper and Lamb said:
Cheers.

Same to you.

--
Ellis Vener
To see my work please visit http://www.ellisvener.com
And follow me on instagram @therealellisv

Ellis Vener · Apr 10, 2018

Virtual Photon said:
YVirtual Photon wrote:

Unless you want to work at an auction house, museum or gallery, working in photography is about portfolio - not degree credits. No art director, wedding planner or editor is going to ask what courses you took.

This is true, but at a good school you are going to meet the editors and art directors who will soon be in a position to hire you and you learn how to communicate and to collaborate with them

Ellis Vener · Apr 10, 2018

riveredger said:
hotdog321 said:

I've got a bachelors and masters in photojournalism from an accredited program at the University of Texas at Austin. I took every class available in photography: fine art, studio, layout and design, history, photojournalism, advertising, media law and ethics and did a masters thesis on ethics in photojournalism. Back when I started out (around 1980) a degree (preferably in photography or pj) was required to get a newspaper staff job.

That said, my first three years of actual field work was a huge eye-opener. Every single day I would pick up 2 or 3 new techniques and discover pitfalls and potential disasters. Education is great and provides a firm foundation for a serious professional career, but actual work in the field is key to building your knowledge base, portfolio and building confidence.

I spent the last 35+ years working as a staff photographer for small then huge newspapers, then freelancing for wire services and magazines and PR. I've absolutely loved my career.

My advice would be to not only gain an education, but take every chance you can get to do real assignments with real deadlines and expectations, hopefully with an occasional paycheck.

Click to expand...

Piper and Lamb · Apr 10, 2018

Thank you to everyone that's responded so far.

I expected a few "drop your degree" replies, but this is not the course of action I will be taking.

I'm not fussed about having the bachelor piece of paper. I have one in music composition from a semi-prestigious conservatorium, and have done nothing with it, because I quickly realized it's not what I want out of life (I should have left early on, but stupidly stuck it out. A different can of worms.) You have to like the process. I didn't enjoy the tediousness of writing music, but I don't find conceptualizing, planning, executing, and editing photos tedious at all. Actually it's really effing enjoyable.

What I mean to say with this is that I'm approaching this degree with the maturity of someone who is having 'a second go', who has the financial opportunity to turn around and do an IT degree and live a fairly financially stress-free life, but is choosing not to. I'd like the piece of paper for the knowledge attached to it. I know some of you are shaking your heads. Stupid boy.

Three years is a long time, and the first year is a slog, and I'm impatient because I haven't learned anything new yet, but from a lot of the comments here, running a business + marketing skills are essential. I will be work on this starting from now. I won't do another bachelor in business, but I imagine there are enough resources, paid or free, on the internet that will allow me to learn from home.

I will have studio-access and equipment loans of Profoto lighting and medium-format cameras during my degree (sadly not in first year) which would otherwise be impossible to obtain/rent on my student income. They will give me the opportunity to learn practical techniques in a professional setting (and then turn around and buy a Godox strobe for a 1/3 price for personal use), in a controlled environment.

I am happy behind a camera. My long-term goals are likely to narrow as I discover what I want to do really do, but right now I'd just be happy making a dollar out of my photography, be it via portraits, or events, or anything people wouldn't consider high art.

I love landscapes, and astrophotography, and I'd love to buy the $10,000 DJI drone with the APS-C sensor one (faraway) day, but apart from selling prints I haven't figured out how to make a living out of those first two.

I met a photographer who's main income was photographing heritage buildings for the State Library and the City Council. I've never had an honest go at architecture, and maybe it sounds a little dull, but hell he gets to use a drone and he likely isn't being rushed by a bride-zilla.

I want to absorb and perfect the technical aspects so that they become second nature and I can focus instead on the shot, or my client, or the composition. Luckily I seem to understand this type of information quickly.

I've been working part-time retail for nearly six years. I want to get out as soon as I can.

Thank you in particular to Ellis Vener and hotdog321 for your detailed replies. I know it is time consuming to write and edit while also giving out useful info.

And yes I figure I should learn to shoot and edit video, even if it's not strictly what I'd like to do.

Thanks again.
Sorry for the wall of text everyone.

Michael Fryd · Apr 10, 2018

Piper and Lamb said:
...

Three years is a long time, and the first year is a slog, and I'm impatient because I haven't learned anything new yet, but from a lot of the comments here, running a business + marketing skills are essential. I will be work on this starting from now. I won't do another bachelor in business, but I imagine there are enough resources, paid or free, on the internet that will allow me to learn from home.

It doesn't matter where you learn, it's what you learn.

If you want to run a successful business, the business skills you learn will be critical.

Piper and Lamb said:
I will have studio-access and equipment loans of Profoto lighting and medium-format cameras during my degree (sadly not in first year) which would otherwise be impossible to obtain/rent on my student income. They will give me the opportunity to learn practical techniques in a professional setting (and then turn around and buy a Godox strobe for a 1/3 price for personal use), in a controlled environment.

Sounds like fun. I think you will enjoy learning photography.

Piper and Lamb said:
I am happy behind a camera. My long-term goals are likely to narrow as I discover what I want to do really do, but right now I'd just be happy making a dollar out of my photography, be it via portraits, or events, or anything people wouldn't consider high art.

Yes. Photography is fun, and modern equipment makes the technical aspects easy. That's one of the reasons why there are so many people who want to make money as a photographer.

The challenge will be getting people to pay you a dollar for your work, when there are so many others willing to work for "exposure" (i.e. "free")

Piper and Lamb said:
I love landscapes, and astrophotography, and I'd love to buy the $10,000 DJI drone with the APS-C sensor one (faraway) day, but apart from selling prints I haven't figured out how to make a living out of those first two.

Landscapes and astrophotography are lots of fun. You are right, making money from it is much harder than taking the photos. That's why you need business and marketing skills.

Around here Clyde Butcher gets by with his landscape photography. He has a well oiled PR machine. He differentiates himself by using an old large format film camera. He portray's himself as the crazy luddite artist who goes sloughing through the swamp to get the perfect photo. It seems like he spends more time marketing than shooting.

If you want to be successful, you need to know how to market. A good marketer can make a fortune selling "pet" rocks.

Piper and Lamb said:
I met a photographer who's main income was photographing heritage buildings for the State Library and the City Council. I've never had an honest go at architecture, and maybe it sounds a little dull, but hell he gets to use a drone and he likely isn't being rushed by a bride-zilla.

In a few years, a drone of that quality will likely be a commodity item. That photographer will have a hard time competing against school kids with high end gear,

Piper and Lamb said:
I want to absorb and perfect the technical aspects so that they become second nature and I can focus instead on the shot, or my client, or the composition. Luckily I seem to understand this type of information quickly.

Knowing the technical aspects can certainly make photography more enjoyable to you. Your clients won't care.

The main factor in whether or not your clients are happy is how well they like you, not the quality of your images. It's disappointing, but true.

Piper and Lamb said:
I've been working part-time retail for nearly six years. I want to get out as soon as I can.

Then you should be looking at a field that is expanding, not collapsing.

====

Photography can be lots of fun, and can be very enjoyable. As a business, it is rapidly going away.

Martin.au · Apr 10, 2018

One thing to look out for is discount RPAS courses for students. I'm planning to do one this year before I lose my studenty-ness. If you want to fly a drone commercially, you need that course.

Piper and Lamb · Apr 10, 2018

Martin.au said:
If you want to fly a drone commercially, you need that course.

Definitely. Thanks for the tip. Haven't found a provider that offers student discounts yet, but it's something to keep in my mind before my university days are up.

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