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Why even consider buying a new Nikon Mirrorless?
- Thread starter johnchap2
- Start date
I suppose if the mirrorless model were as good as (or better) than the D850, but smaller and lighter, I'd trading in.
chipmaster
Senior Member
There are three types of people
1) Current Nikon DSLR User
2) Current Mirrorless that move switch
3) New Pro/Enthusiast
Mirrorless has so many fundamental advantages possible, it is only a matter of time/market forces that drive Canikon to move.
Features it will be just like the DSLR arm's race, features ( pixels, focus, DNR ) and of course ergonomics/size.
There is no way Nikon can throw it's competitive advantage of huge installed base of F-mount lens and hopefully complimentary set of DSLR bodies to complete out a line that spans from small / light ( new lens ) mirrorless all the way to the D* line and F-mount.
We know from Nikon 1 that from engineering mirroless point of view what they can do, and the D850, D500 and D5 tell you all you need to know about their technical capability on the imaging / engineering side. The new FX lens while eye popping in price have little to complain about in performance.
Even if it simply matches the combination of Sony and the latest Nikon DSLR it should be competitive and hold their line in the mirroless arena
Let's hope they don't screw it up like the Nikon 1, bring it on!
1) Current Nikon DSLR User
2) Current Mirrorless that move switch
3) New Pro/Enthusiast
Mirrorless has so many fundamental advantages possible, it is only a matter of time/market forces that drive Canikon to move.
Features it will be just like the DSLR arm's race, features ( pixels, focus, DNR ) and of course ergonomics/size.
There is no way Nikon can throw it's competitive advantage of huge installed base of F-mount lens and hopefully complimentary set of DSLR bodies to complete out a line that spans from small / light ( new lens ) mirrorless all the way to the D* line and F-mount.
We know from Nikon 1 that from engineering mirroless point of view what they can do, and the D850, D500 and D5 tell you all you need to know about their technical capability on the imaging / engineering side. The new FX lens while eye popping in price have little to complain about in performance.
Even if it simply matches the combination of Sony and the latest Nikon DSLR it should be competitive and hold their line in the mirroless arena
Let's hope they don't screw it up like the Nikon 1, bring it on!
[email protected]
Veteran Member
That is my hope anyway.
They were late with autofocus.
They were late with vibration reduction.
They were late with full frame.
They are late with mirrorless.
Mirrorless has some definite advantages:
totally silent shooting
dazzlingly accurate eye focus
really high frame rates
no AF fine tune
Sony has some vulnerability:
star eating gives me indigestion
no lossless compressed RAW leaves me lost for words
smaller stable of lenses
Bring on the Z!
maljo
They were late with autofocus.
They were late with vibration reduction.
They were late with full frame.
They are late with mirrorless.
Mirrorless has some definite advantages:
totally silent shooting
dazzlingly accurate eye focus
really high frame rates
no AF fine tune
Sony has some vulnerability:
star eating gives me indigestion
no lossless compressed RAW leaves me lost for words
smaller stable of lenses
Bring on the Z!
maljo
n3eg
Senior Member
There will certainly be adapters for legacy Nikon lenses, and likely will be adapters for other.
I guess the answer will be determined by why you're a Nikon shooter in the first place.
For me, it is about the shooting experience. From the ergonomics to UI to some of the lenses in their lineup. Perhaps through conditioning but for me, it feels the most intuitive.
If Nikon doesn't break those things with their mirrorless then if/when I want to re-enter the mirrorless market, my first preference will be Nikon.
As an example, the Nikon 1 broke the ergonomics/UI and by virtue of sensor size, broke the intended FOV of my preferred lenses so it was a non-starter for me. They also broke compatibility with Nikon DSLR accessories eg. speedlights and CLS. Big no no in my books.
At this point, it seems like the Panasonic G9 might be the closest to the Nikon DSLR ergonomics and UI for mirrorless bodies. It'd be terribly ironic if the G9 was more the Nikon that we know, than Nikon's Z-mount bodies.
So I'd still buy Nikon mirrorless if I can use it seamlessly with my DSLRs either together or interchangeably.
Secondly, I'd like them to concentrate on the mirrorless shooting experience ie. great EVF, great on-sensor AF and don't skimp on the battery.
As for lenses, I'd be happy with F-mount adapters in the short term whilst they flesh out native lenses since I'm fairly selective about what I like anyways. But don't forget F-mount in the mean time. We still need E updates to many f1.4 primes and some wide-angles.
For me, it is about the shooting experience. From the ergonomics to UI to some of the lenses in their lineup. Perhaps through conditioning but for me, it feels the most intuitive.
If Nikon doesn't break those things with their mirrorless then if/when I want to re-enter the mirrorless market, my first preference will be Nikon.
As an example, the Nikon 1 broke the ergonomics/UI and by virtue of sensor size, broke the intended FOV of my preferred lenses so it was a non-starter for me. They also broke compatibility with Nikon DSLR accessories eg. speedlights and CLS. Big no no in my books.
At this point, it seems like the Panasonic G9 might be the closest to the Nikon DSLR ergonomics and UI for mirrorless bodies. It'd be terribly ironic if the G9 was more the Nikon that we know, than Nikon's Z-mount bodies.
So I'd still buy Nikon mirrorless if I can use it seamlessly with my DSLRs either together or interchangeably.
Secondly, I'd like them to concentrate on the mirrorless shooting experience ie. great EVF, great on-sensor AF and don't skimp on the battery.
As for lenses, I'd be happy with F-mount adapters in the short term whilst they flesh out native lenses since I'm fairly selective about what I like anyways. But don't forget F-mount in the mean time. We still need E updates to many f1.4 primes and some wide-angles.
Vince P
Senior Member
Whilst I might be in the market for a mirrorless high end FX body, if it shows improvements over the DSLRs, size and weight is unlikely to be a huge issue. That would be a big deal as it would likely mean migration to a whole new native lens set. Adapters are very unlikely to be as good as native lenses so I would need to wait until a critical mass of lenses is built, for whichever system and maybe use adapted lenses for some niche stuff in the meantime. That could be a long way off. Even now Sony is not there.
However if Nikon made a really compact bare bones FX with an adapter for F mount or even better a DX with a speed booster, I would definitely pick one up. Just as a backup body when travelling. Maybe coupled with a small prime for occasional lightweight use.
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Instagram @vinnypimages
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Vince P
Senior Member
They were well ahead of Canon for AF
They built the first stabilised lens
And still some disadvantages. But on the whole it will pull ahead either now or at some point soon.
Possible with hybrid or live view
Possible with hybrid or live view
Possible with hybrid or live view
I also like no mirror black out but that is also be possible with hybrid or live view
On sensor PDAF Also allows a much larger AF area.
PDAF can need fine tune even if on sensor. (See Olympus)
--
Instagram @vinnypimages
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sandy b
Veteran Member
There is no doubt there will be an adaptor and it will need no glass. And seeing as Nikon designed the electronics and interface it will not be the much less than perfect hack the sony adaptors are.
JohnnyLuddite
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Exactly - the adaptor can just be seen as a weird extension of the mirrorless body pretending to be a normal Fx body, and since they are in control of all the proprietary signals and protocols, the electronic adaption is "easy", and the mechanical part probably not that much more difficult.
The Ghost of Caravaggio
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But my assessment is based on Nikon's past product development/marketing strategies.
Believe it or not, I'd be very happy to be proven wrong.
Who knows? Nikon might even invite talented female photographers to try the Z out pre-release.
Let's just hope they don't rely on celebreties and sexual inuendo in the Z's ad campaign.
Believe it or not, I'd be very happy to be proven wrong.
Who knows? Nikon might even invite talented female photographers to try the Z out pre-release.
Let's just hope they don't rely on celebreties and sexual inuendo in the Z's ad campaign.
sandy b
Veteran Member
Well, more people buy Nikon cameras than any other manufacturer but Canon, So I would like to think they are doing a few things right. They make profits every year, which cannot be said for other companies. And they are making more money than last year. And they make the best DSLR lineup in the business. IMO.
Lets see what the camera looks like before we decide it sucks.
Lets see what the camera looks like before we decide it sucks.
Bob Janes
Veteran Member
For one thing, there will be an adapter. There are adapters for just about anything to Sony E mount, no reason to think that there won't be for Nikon, not any reason to think that Nikon won't make one.
For another, all else being equal, the Nikon name is a draw and at least some people will buy based on that. They may even buy a camera with slightly inferior specs, or that costs slightly more because of the name.
ClaudiusTheGod
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You seem to be assuming that compatibility is the most important factor in brand loyalty, when a switch to another brand would also render the lenses incompatible.
This is a red herring, a straw man. Firstly because there is bound to be an adapter, secondly many many camera users hardly ever change lenses so they just don't care, but, most importantly many SLR users want the mirrorless option to have a smaller camera with an EVF.
The camera that arrives will not even have to be particularly special in any way- look how succesful the EOS M cameras are. Even though Canon have crippled the M5 with a screen that is foolishly obscured by the tripod mount when facing forward. Still Canon have done spectacularly well in the market.
Nikon would be foolish to do anything other than that- i e release some cameras that more or less correspond to the SLR line up but are slightly worse in some way, and some nice small lenses (but not too many) to go with it.
Nikon DSLR users thinking of a mirrorless option will go for that. I'm confident because the numbers seem to suggest that Canon users settled for that, and lets face it, Canon and Nikon users arent all that different.
To keep profitability and compete with canon, how can they do otherwise?
But not the same sensor stack thickness. Turned out, with the F-mount FFD, it didn't make that much difference. Whew!
Phil Bishop
Well-known member
My Panasonic GX8 and 100-400mm lens is a lot smaller and lighter than my D3s and 500mm f4.
I am not a Nikon fan by any means. I don't even currently own a Nikon camera or lens. But this doesn't prevent me from seeing how Nikon has excelled in designing, engineering, and building cameras and lenses over the past 50 years or so.
They have the talent, they have the resources, and they have the manufacturing ability to pull it off. So why would you instantly rule them out? Because they aren't the first company to do it? That makes absolutely no sense. Apple wasn't the first company to make a smart phone, Nokia was. And where is Apple today.... and is Nokia still even in business?
Toyota didn't build their first car until 1937. Which was a whopping 52 years after Karl Benz built the first car in Germany. Today..... Toyota sells around five times more cars than Mercedes-Benz does. (10.18 million vs. 2.2 million in 2016).
Market leadership doesn't necessarily go to the company who got there first. It usually goes to the company who executes best, and who delivers the best products at the best prices for customers. (Economics 101).
The real question isn't whether Nikon can build a great Full Frame MILC camera system, because we all know they can. The real question is whether there are enough Full Frame MILC customers to support three (Sony, Leica, and Nikon) or even four competitors (Sony, Leica, Nikon, and perhaps Canon.)
My own view is that there is room for one more, since Leica really isn't competing with Sony or anyone else. Leica has it's on luxury niche and will prosper no matter what anyone else does. If Nikon jumps in they could be very successful by competing with Sony head on. In terms of both price and features. And that could make it harder for Canon to eventually jump into that market, since the number of potential buyers for any full frame MILC system is pretty limited.
They have the talent, they have the resources, and they have the manufacturing ability to pull it off. So why would you instantly rule them out? Because they aren't the first company to do it? That makes absolutely no sense. Apple wasn't the first company to make a smart phone, Nokia was. And where is Apple today.... and is Nokia still even in business?
Toyota didn't build their first car until 1937. Which was a whopping 52 years after Karl Benz built the first car in Germany. Today..... Toyota sells around five times more cars than Mercedes-Benz does. (10.18 million vs. 2.2 million in 2016).
Market leadership doesn't necessarily go to the company who got there first. It usually goes to the company who executes best, and who delivers the best products at the best prices for customers. (Economics 101).
The real question isn't whether Nikon can build a great Full Frame MILC camera system, because we all know they can. The real question is whether there are enough Full Frame MILC customers to support three (Sony, Leica, and Nikon) or even four competitors (Sony, Leica, Nikon, and perhaps Canon.)
My own view is that there is room for one more, since Leica really isn't competing with Sony or anyone else. Leica has it's on luxury niche and will prosper no matter what anyone else does. If Nikon jumps in they could be very successful by competing with Sony head on. In terms of both price and features. And that could make it harder for Canon to eventually jump into that market, since the number of potential buyers for any full frame MILC system is pretty limited.
M
MShot
Guest
If they don't make a competitive mirrorless camera it will be another failure. If they make a competitive mirrorless camera, why would you buy their DSLRs?
If they replace their DSLRs, what to they say to the customers who have been buying them? We were only kidding?
Nikon is in a tough position. They have to follow the mirrorless camera business because they didn't lead it, but if they make ASP-C and FF mirrorless cameras their position won't change much. They will still be up against Canon and SONY.
If they replace their DSLRs, what to they say to the customers who have been buying them? We were only kidding?
Nikon is in a tough position. They have to follow the mirrorless camera business because they didn't lead it, but if they make ASP-C and FF mirrorless cameras their position won't change much. They will still be up against Canon and SONY.
Same thing Hasselblad said to their customers when they came out with the X1D.
Same thing Sony said to their customers when they came out with the a7 and a7R.
"You want an SLR, we'll sell you one. You want mirrorless, we'll sell you one of those."
Jim
Many of us still like the OVF, generally a larger body, the focusing speed of a DSLR, battery life and all of the other things that DSLRs do better then mirrorless.
That won't happen until some years to come when they can convince DSLR lovers that mirrorless camera offers as much and are better then their DSLR in every way. It's not happening today or in near recent days.
Canon is nothing as far as mirrorless goes. Only Sony and Fuji present any type of competition in the mirrorless area.
--
I'm a photo hacker. I use my expensive equipment to destroy anything in front of my camera. This is a special skill that can never be realized by low life photographers. A nurtured skill since the 1970's.
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