Why does a camera's framed shot move by itself?

Hello!

I don't have a 80-400 any more, but had the first version for about a year- the tripod foot was a disaster, making it barely useable on a tripod. Which version do you have?

Do you get the same shake indoors? Any slight breeze can shake up things a little, especially with longer lenses. Can you try indoors with your typical settings?

I don't know these very Gitzo legs, but not all materials absorb vibrations equally well - is it carbon fiber, aluminium or anything else?

I suppose you are at the long side of things with the 80-400?

Best,

Alex

Sturdy tripod, all tighten up, lens focusing & zoom rings are secured with masking tape, remote activation only

Focus Shift Shooting said:

beatboxa said:

It's because you don't have a stable tripod or are not using silent shooting.

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It's a Gitzo 1127 with an Acratech Ultimate Ballhead. I lock it down tight.

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Gitzo recomend series 2 tripods for focal lenght up to 200mm. You tripod has not enough torsional rigidity for what you are trying to do. With better tripod, your problem will be solved.

It's not the camera as long as you use the standard precautions, mirror up and remote release or delayed picture taking etc.

But the sources of motion can sometimes be unexpected. How stable is the ground ? Wood floors for instance may bulge under your weight. Just slightly changing where you stand relative to the tripod or putting more weight on one leg than the other can affect the tripod position. Yet if you don't move as you take the image the picture may not be blurred. But it won't be framed the same way as the next. The motion will be exaggerated with longer lens, of course.

SiFu said:

Hello!

I don't have a 80-400 any more, but had the first version for about a year- the tripod foot was a disaster, making it barely useable on a tripod. Which version do you have?

Click to expand...

I have a Kirk Collar on it, because yeah the original was unusable.

SiFu said:

Do you get the same shake indoors? Any slight breeze can shake up things a little, especially with longer lenses. Can you try indoors with your typical settings?

Click to expand...

Yes, the latest test was indoors.

SiFu said:

I don't know these very Gitzo legs, but not all materials absorb vibrations equally well - is it carbon fiber, aluminium or anything else?

Click to expand...

Carbon.

SiFu said:

I suppose you are at the long side of things with the 80-400?

Click to expand...

Yes, with a TC14iii (and I have 2 of those as well, both do it).

But again, the 70-200 ii I have also does it.

afoton said:

Focus Shift Shooting said:

beatboxa said:

It's because you don't have a stable tripod or are not using silent shooting.

Click to expand...

It's a Gitzo 1127 with an Acratech Ultimate Ballhead. I lock it down tight.

Click to expand...

Gitzo recomend series 2 tripods for focal lenght up to 200mm. You tripod has not enough torsional rigidity for what you are trying to do. With better tripod, your problem will be solved.

Click to expand...

Sounds like we're heading toward that conclusion. Thank you!

TOF guy said:

It's not the camera as long as you use the standard precautions, mirror up and remote release or delayed picture taking etc.

But the sources of motion can sometimes be unexpected. How stable is the ground ? Wood floors for instance may bulge under your weight. Just slightly changing where you stand relative to the tripod or putting more weight on one leg than the other can affect the tripod position. Yet if you don't move as you take the image the picture may not be blurred. But it won't be framed the same way as the next. The motion will be exaggerated with longer lens, of course

Click to expand...

I have noticed that. I was taking pictures from my deck and my legs were getting tired and I was shifting in place, and any time that I accidentally touched any of the deck's wood that was shared with the tripod there was shake.

If you go into Live-View and hold the camera, you can see your heartbeat!

However, you do bring up something interesting. I was sitting down when I did the last test indoors, and it was on carpet. Just moving in my chair could have caused movement. I really didn't think about that.

So, so far, tripod movement seems to be the highest probability for my issue.

Thanks!

Focus Shift Shooting said:

JimKasson said:

Focus Shift Shooting said:

So I've been interested in stacking photos for completely removing noise and adding sharpness. My mirrorless camera has no problem with this at all.

My D850, D810, and other DSLR cameras can't do it.

Here's my set-up...

Tripod with remote shutter release, mirror lockup, manual focus.

I tighten everything down tight! Nothing should move. I'm not touching the camera.

Every single image is slightly off from all the rest.

It appears as if the whole system tenses up and it is at this point when things are going wrong for me. This may be completely normal, likely is as it is happening with any DSLR I use, but I'd like to know exactly why it is happening.

Anyone have an idea?

Click to expand...

Are you using electronic shutter on the D850?

Click to expand...

I tried electronic shutter one time and one time only. It produces banding, and that's unacceptable for me. I'm shooting in dimly-lit rooms. The mechanical shutter is fine, electronic was so bad with the banding that I would never ever use it.

Click to expand...

That may be your answer. Certainly, if you're using one of the flapping mirror modes, you're gonna have more vibration than a mirrorless. I note that the D850 FSS feature works with the electronic shutter, and only with that shutter.

There's a way around the banding that works much of the time:


Jim

Focus Shift Shooting said:

NostalgicDave said:

Can Photoshop successfully auto-align them?

Click to expand...

No. This is perhaps my biggest problem.

When I try to do so, it says that there needs to be a variance of 30% or more from each photo, as if it is trying to make a panorama for me.

I'm probably doing that wrong. I seem to remember that I was able to do it before, but must have forgotten.

Click to expand...

When I want to align multiple images, I use PS, File, Scripts, Load files into stack..., with check the Attempt to Automatically Align Sources Image checked.

First, it would help if you would post some sample images.

I'm wondering about two things: tripod/camera stability and focus breathing.

I'm thinking one test could tell if one of these is a problem, and possibly both.

My test idea is for you to simply take two images in a row without changing focus. That will eliminate any focus breathing and perspective changing. If you see the image shifting here, it's because your tripod is not as stable as you think. You should get a good idea if your tripod is moving from vibrations around simply by zooming to 200% on Live View and watching the screen as you cause vibrations.

What makes me think you might be seeing breathing/perspective changing is because you mention having the problem on long lenses.

I have (and don't yet use) a focus rail for macro shooting. Designed for focus stacking by manually moving the camera without changing the focus, it eliminates focus breathing differences as well as perspective changes. I wonder where this comes into play. Experienced macro shooters (I'm not one of them) would know.

If your rig really is stable, you should be able to press on the end of your longest lens and not see a deflection in 200% live view.

PHXAZCRAIG said:

I have (and don't yet use) a focus rail for macro shooting. Designed for focus stacking by manually moving the camera without changing the focus, it eliminates focus breathing differences as well as perspective changes. I wonder where this comes into play. Experienced macro shooters (I'm not one of them) would know.

Click to expand...

A rail will only eliminate perspective changes if and only if the camera body is separated from the lens (usually by a bellows), the lens is not moved, and the camera body is moved by the rail.

Jim

JimKasson said:

Focus Shift Shooting said:

JimKasson said:

Are you using electronic shutter on the D850?

Click to expand...

I tried electronic shutter one time and one time only. It produces banding, and that's unacceptable for me. I'm shooting in dimly-lit rooms. The mechanical shutter is fine, electronic was so bad with the banding that I would never ever use it.

Click to expand...

That may be your answer. Certainly, if you're using one of the flapping mirror modes, you're gonna have more vibration than a mirrorless. I note that the D850 FSS feature works with the electronic shutter, and only with that shutter.

There's a way around the banding that works much of the time:

http://blog.kasson.com/gfx-50s/mitigating-lighting-banding-in-gfx-es-images/

Click to expand...

Thank you for this!

That is EXACTLY what is happening. My band lines are larger, but that's it for sure.

When I saw it, I was like, Well that's absolutely terrible and 100% useless to me.

I expect Sony to be experimental, but not Nikon, so I was rather surprised that one of their features was so broken. I love that Sony takes chances, but I depend on Nikon. I think that's why they didn't have 8K timelapse made in-camera. They didn't want to half-do it. Something wasn't working right and they don't do things halfway.

So I was perplexed, but I was okay with avoiding it. Now I understand. I thought it was caused by electronic residual effect, as in there was always a charge on the sensor from its use and therefore it was always going to be present. If I would have thought about flash sync, maybe that would have clicked better for me. But yeah, I was not happy.

Anyway, thanks for giving back a lot of my camera's power again. I can avoid this by changing Aperture, SS, ISo to get away from the LED flicker rate.

Focus Shift Shooting said:

JimKasson said:

Focus Shift Shooting said:

JimKasson said:

Are you using electronic shutter on the D850?

Click to expand...

I tried electronic shutter one time and one time only. It produces banding, and that's unacceptable for me. I'm shooting in dimly-lit rooms. The mechanical shutter is fine, electronic was so bad with the banding that I would never ever use it.

Click to expand...

That may be your answer. Certainly, if you're using one of the flapping mirror modes, you're gonna have more vibration than a mirrorless. I note that the D850 FSS feature works with the electronic shutter, and only with that shutter.

There's a way around the banding that works much of the time:

http://blog.kasson.com/gfx-50s/mitigating-lighting-banding-in-gfx-es-images/

Click to expand...

Thank you for this!

That is EXACTLY what is happening. My band lines are larger,

Click to expand...

That's because the GFX is even slower: 1/4 second as opposed to the D850's (and a7RII and a7RIII) 1/15 second. The P1 and H6D 100 MP backs scan even slower: 1 full second.

Focus Shift Shooting said:

but that's it for sure.

When I saw it, I was like, Well that's absolutely terrible and 100% useless to me.

I expect Sony to be experimental, but not Nikon, so I was rather surprised that one of their features was so broken.

Click to expand...

It's not broken. It is what it is, and it's really useful for many things. Remember the old Dicomed and Betterlight backs where we had to use HMI lights? Probably before your time. Modern high-quality LED studio lighting (I'm a Westcott fan) works fine at all shutter speeds.

Focus Shift Shooting said:

I love that Sony takes chances, but I depend on Nikon. I think that's why they didn't have 8K timelapse made in-camera. They didn't want to half-do it. Something wasn't working right and they don't do things halfway.

So I was perplexed, but I was okay with avoiding it. Now I understand. I thought it was caused by electronic residual effect, as in there was always a charge on the sensor from its use and therefore it was always going to be present. If I would have thought about flash sync, maybe that would have clicked better for me. But yeah, I was not happy.
Anyway, thanks for giving back a lot of my camera's power again.

Click to expand...

It's a pleasure.

Focus Shift Shooting said:

I can avoid this by changing Aperture, SS, ISo to get away from the LED flicker rate.

Click to expand...

Or use high-modulation rate LED lighting that's made for photography.

Jim

Focus Shift Shooting said:

A Owens said:

Focus Shift Shooting said:

NostalgicDave said:

Can Photoshop successfully auto-align them?

Click to expand...

No. This is perhaps my biggest problem.

When I try to do so, it says that there needs to be a variance of 30% or more from each photo, as if it is trying to make a panorama for me.

I'm probably doing that wrong. I seem to remember that I was able to do it before, but must have forgotten.

Click to expand...

Yes, it sounds like you are trying to combine the images into a panorama rather than to stack them. Are you doing it from LR or direct in PS?

Click to expand...

I've never owned LR. It's always been PS.

When you tell me, I'm going to be like, "OH Yeah, NOW I remember."

Click to expand...

I still do not really understand your problem though. If you are just taking images in still air from a strong fixed tripod with no focus or aperture change between exposures and you are not touching the camera, the only thing that can cause movement is camera vibration. But that will only reduce resolution and will not affect the registration between images. Photoshop should be able to easily align even soft images using the method in the link above.

Using mirror up, a DSLR will not vibrate any more than a mirrorless. As someone else has already suggested, a few sample images would help in making the problem clearer.

Focus Shift Shooting said:

afoton said:

Focus Shift Shooting said:

beatboxa said:

It's because you don't have a stable tripod or are not using silent shooting.

Click to expand...

It's a Gitzo 1127 with an Acratech Ultimate Ballhead. I lock it down tight.

Click to expand...

Gitzo recomend series 2 tripods for focal lenght up to 200mm. You tripod has not enough torsional rigidity for what you are trying to do. With better tripod, your problem will be solved.

Click to expand...

Sounds like we're heading toward that conclusion. Thank you!

Click to expand...

Tripod feet... always use spikes whether on hard floor or carpets. Never rubber.

Weigh things down...

The tripod is definitely your problem. Way too light and flimsy for your load.

A Owens said:

Focus Shift Shooting said:

A Owens said:

Focus Shift Shooting said:

NostalgicDave said:

Can Photoshop successfully auto-align them?

Click to expand...

No. This is perhaps my biggest problem.

When I try to do so, it says that there needs to be a variance of 30% or more from each photo, as if it is trying to make a panorama for me.

I'm probably doing that wrong. I seem to remember that I was able to do it before, but must have forgotten.

Click to expand...

Yes, it sounds like you are trying to combine the images into a panorama rather than to stack them. Are you doing it from LR or direct in PS?

Click to expand...

I've never owned LR. It's always been PS.

When you tell me, I'm going to be like, "OH Yeah, NOW I remember."

Click to expand...

https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/using/image-stacks.html

I still do not really understand your problem though. If you are just taking images in still air from a strong fixed tripod with no focus or aperture change between exposures and you are not touching the camera, the only thing that can cause movement is camera vibration. But that will only reduce resolution and will not affect the registration between images. Photoshop should be able to easily align even soft images using the method in the link above.

Click to expand...

I looked at the link, however it must be for an older version of photoshop or something. I'm using Adobe CS6 Creative Suite. What I was using for stacking was Bridge, to get the shots into photoshop as layers. This did work at one time, but I've forgotten what I did.

A Owens said:

Using mirror up, a DSLR will not vibrate any more than a mirrorless. As someone else has already suggested, a few sample images would help in making the problem clearer.

Click to expand...

Yes, I know. I apologize. It makes it difficult, I know.

A long time ago, I made a personal vow to never, ever, ever show my work on any forum ever again. I was blasted by someone who had it in for me. And the photo was pretty good, but the guy pixel peeped it and just blasted me for anything and everything.

Also, I do very heavy processing. I think of photography as art, rather than just a mirror's moment in time. So my work is different, unique you might say. I remember HDR being a big thing, and then tanking hard. I remember Andre Dragan's work being reverse-engineered and the copied until it wasn't his anymore. I want my art to remain mine. So I apologize, and I know it makes it more difficult, but there will never be anything in my gallery.

Focus Shift Shooting said:

A Owens said:

Focus Shift Shooting said:

A Owens said:

Focus Shift Shooting said:

NostalgicDave said:

Can Photoshop successfully auto-align them?

Click to expand...

No. This is perhaps my biggest problem.

When I try to do so, it says that there needs to be a variance of 30% or more from each photo, as if it is trying to make a panorama for me.

I'm probably doing that wrong. I seem to remember that I was able to do it before, but must have forgotten.

Click to expand...

Yes, it sounds like you are trying to combine the images into a panorama rather than to stack them. Are you doing it from LR or direct in PS?

Click to expand...

I've never owned LR. It's always been PS.

When you tell me, I'm going to be like, "OH Yeah, NOW I remember."

Click to expand...

https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/using/image-stacks.html

I still do not really understand your problem though. If you are just taking images in still air from a strong fixed tripod with no focus or aperture change between exposures and you are not touching the camera, the only thing that can cause movement is camera vibration. But that will only reduce resolution and will not affect the registration between images. Photoshop should be able to easily align even soft images using the method in the link above.

Click to expand...

I looked at the link, however it must be for an older version of photoshop or something. I'm using Adobe CS6 Creative Suite. What I was using for stacking was Bridge, to get the shots into photoshop as layers. This did work at one time, but I've forgotten what I did.

Focus Shift Shooting said:

Using mirror up, a DSLR will not vibrate any more than a mirrorless. As someone else has already suggested, a few sample images would help in making the problem clearer.

Click to expand...

Yes, I know. I apologize. It makes it difficult, I know.

A long time ago, I made a personal vow to never, ever, ever show my work on any forum ever again. I was blasted by someone who had it in for me. And the photo was pretty good, but the guy pixel peeped it and just blasted me for anything and everything.

Also, I do very heavy processing. I think of photography as art, rather than just a mirror's moment in time. So my work is different, unique you might say. I remember HDR being a big thing, and then tanking hard. I remember Andre Dragan's work being reverse-engineered and the copied until it wasn't his anymore. I want my art to remain mine. So I apologize, and I know it makes it more difficult, but there will never be anything in my gallery.

Click to expand...

Who represents you? Can we see your work there?

Jim

Focus Shift Shooting said:

It's manually focused, so I'm not actually changing focus at all. I'm just taking dozens of pictures and they're not staying perfectly aligned.

Click to expand...

Hmm... do you mean you are taking dozens of the exact same photo (same frame, focus and exposure) as a test to see if it moves? Or do you mean you are taking different exposures to stack but everything else is the same?

I guess I thought you meant you refocus to have all the areas in the photo sharp ("add sharpness") but now I'm not sure. I guess you might be changing exposures to help with noise in dark areas, not sure how this improves sharpness but I guess it could seem that way if the shadows are brighter. If you are manually changing exposure between photos maybe you move the camera slightly.

If you are not changing focus or exposure, or I somehow missed what you actually doing in the first post, can you clarify?

Whenever I take photos for focus stacking the frame changes when changing the focus (manually of course), so I have to align anyway. When stacking for exposure (which I do sometimes but not often at all) then I guess if the photos were slightly different then I didn't notice since the software aligned them perfectly.

Do you just load the photos to Photoshop into layers and manually mask/reveal the parts you want, so any misalignment would show up?

clarnibass said:

Focus Shift Shooting said:

It's manually focused, so I'm not actually changing focus at all. I'm just taking dozens of pictures and they're not staying perfectly aligned.

Click to expand...

Hmm... do you mean you are taking dozens of the exact same photo (same frame, focus and exposure) as a test to see if it moves? Or do you mean you are taking different exposures to stack but everything else is the same?

I guess I thought you meant you refocus to have all the areas in the photo sharp ("add sharpness") but now I'm not sure. I guess you might be changing exposures to help with noise in dark areas, not sure how this improves sharpness but I guess it could seem that way if the shadows are brighter. If you are manually changing exposure between photos maybe you move the camera slightly.

If you are not changing focus or exposure, or I somehow missed what you actually doing in the first post, can you clarify?

Click to expand...

My name is a bit confusing for this question, is it not?

Every exposure, focus, setting is the same.

clarnibass said:

Whenever I take photos for focus stacking the frame changes when changing the focus (manually of course), so I have to align anyway. When stacking for exposure (which I do sometimes but not often at all) then I guess if the photos were slightly different then I didn't notice since the software aligned them perfectly.

Do you just load the photos to Photoshop into layers and manually mask/reveal the parts you want, so any misalignment would show up?

Click to expand...

Yes, I forgot how to align the images if necessary as I've been using bridge to load them to photoshop.

Then I stack the layers as mean average transparency to see through all the crap. It completely removes all the noise utterly. This isn't really such a big deal with the power of the D850; and it isn't even really the question I originally was asking.

My concern at first was wondering if the camera was tensing up to take a shot, because my images should overlap perfectly and they don't. My mirrorless Sony Rx10iv does not have this problem at all. And it's a heavy little creature. But it's weight is much more centered than with the big gun on the Nikon.

Lots of people suggested it was my Gitzo tripod which made no sense since that thing has been with me forever. I purchased it for hiking long ago. However, someone stated that it is not rated for the weight I'm demanding of it. And I couldn't believe it. NO! I said to myself, that's impossible. I could throw rocks at that thing and it would just laugh. That thing still looks brand new. It's the best money I ever spent on photography.

However, when I checked, it's rated for 5.9 pounds. WHAT? Well no wonder it's wobbling around!! I either didn't notice because the D850 has more resolution to throw around or I was using lighter lenses when it was working.

Thanks to everyone that has been helping me. I've learned a lot about a great deal more than what I originally asked. I mean, I learned a lot! Very, very helpful.

Focus Shift Shooting said:

Gitzo 1127

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That tripod is rated for something like eleven pounds. It's not nearly sturdy enough for any larger camera with a heavy lens on it.