10D image sharpness

You are most welcome, please let me know if I can help further. I would disagree that the G3 is not a serious camera, I consider it to be better than the G5 I sold on ebay recently!

As a final piece of advice I would have to say correct exposure is perhaps the most important thing to strive for with digital. The exposure latitude is IMHO even less than with conventional slide film, so learning how to read the histogram and get your exposure right will help your picture quality enourmously. Buy BreezeBrowzer too and learn RAW, which is another key.
dhphoto,

thanks very much for the fantastic advice. I appreciate your clear
explanation and willingnesss to help someone a little (ok, a lot)
further down the digital camera chain!

I am looking forward to trying out the steps you have suggested as
they make the most sense of any I've read in the last 11 months
when looking at this stuff. The G3 is certainly giving me the
opportunity to explore photography and perhaps develop some
essential skills prior to moving onto a more serious camera without
having the first clue of what to do.

sincerely appreciative,

Aaron
 
Once I changed from standard Canon zooms to primes and ' L' lenses the difference I noticed was amazing.

My work includes business portraits which I used to take on an RB67 or a Hass and with a 10D and a 24-70L the results are indistinguishable, as long as the exposure is correct (to 1/3 stop or less)
Actually, the shot of the bird is in my on-line gallery and the
shot there has been processed with Fred Miranda's 10D CSPro Action.

http://garycoombs.com/10D/New/slides/IMG_2315a4.html

In this thread I wanted to illustrate the native sharpness from the
10D by showing some 10D photos without any post processing.

You're right about the bird photo having been made with an L-Series
lens. The photo was made with the Canon 70-200 2.8L IS. I love
the 2nd generation IS technology, allowing me to hand-hold shots I
would never have previously even attempted without tripod support.
I'm amazed with this incredible lens every time I use it.

The bottom line for me is that I have no complaints whatsoever
about the sharpness of the 10D. With no post-porocessing my 10D
produces photos that are easily a match for, or better than, my
best efforts with film and the Canon F1 or T90 with Canon FD L
lenses.

All this "soft" talk just leaves me shaking my head and wondering
what these folks are doing with their equipment.

--
Gary Coombs
My Profile contains my Equipment List
http://GaryCoombs.com/10D/New
http://GaryCoombs.com/10D/Test
 
I am not sure it is the best way to do because some people will always says Fuji ... is much better, Sigma ... is tack sharp, 10D is soft and not usable ...

I do not think sharpness is the most important thing. Contrast, colors, low noise are very important too.

Here is my contribution to the sharp image gallery. This picture is not intended to be my sharpest. I took one of the last pictures I took and cropped it to show that they are not soft

This picture was taken with the cheapest Canon Lens : 50mm1.8

@F4.5 : should be much sharper at F8
Shutter : 1/50 sec
ISO : 100
Fill-in flash : 420ex
USM : The "Low" of FredMiranda 10D CSPro

100% crop



Full picture



--
Stéphan (from France)
http://www.pbase.com/atoova
 
P.S. Are you visiting New York, or do you live here?
Former city dweller, now living in NJ (still find it hard to say I'm from New Jersey).

I'll re-test and maybe start a new thread if I'm uncertain if any variance is significant. More likely, I'll keep shooting normal shots and see if I notice any persistent problems.

Thanks again,

Steve
 
If you have both cameras then post some sample pics.
I am not sure it is the best way to do because some people will
always says Fuji ... is much better, Sigma ... is tack sharp, 10D
is soft and not usable ...

I do not think sharpness is the most important thing. Contrast,
colors, low noise are very important too.

Here is my contribution to the sharp image gallery. This picture is
not intended to be my sharpest. I took one of the last pictures I
took and cropped it to show that they are not soft

This picture was taken with the cheapest Canon Lens : 50mm1.8

@F4.5 : should be much sharper at F8
Shutter : 1/50 sec
ISO : 100
Fill-in flash : 420ex
USM : The "Low" of FredMiranda 10D CSPro

100% crop



Full picture



--
Stéphan (from France)
http://www.pbase.com/atoova
--
http://www.fototime.com/inv/2DE8A73EF9811C6
 
They should be close to the 10D as far as sharpness. Check out this link. Rick Decker got his hands on a 300D and took some shots in hawaii. They look pretty sharp but you can see artifacts around some reflections. They were sharpened in camera. What gets me about these photos is the colors, Yikes. Look at the two harbor photos. Very strange. Actually most of them look really dark.

http://www.pbase.com/rickdecker/canon_digital_rebel
Leon
This is topic numero ono around here. I think there were three
threads about sharpness just last night. Check your lens focusing.
(topic numero dos) How sophisticated are your photoshop skills?
This camera was built to allow ... make that demand post processing
work. Have you read about local contrast enhancement on Luminous
Landscape. It's still on the front page. Other articles about
sharpening on LL as well. For those of us who do not wish to
become photoshop experts there are several purveyors of 'actions'
like Fred Miranda and Nic Sharpener that will go to work on your
photos with the use of layers and multiple processes that do
wonders. The down and dirty of it is this camera will not take
photos like a P&S. But it will take bigger better ones if you are
willing to do the post processing.

--
http://www.pbase.com/sfleming

Too many cameras ... not nearly enough photography.
 
Looks like those pics are from a pre-production model...

Just FYI
http://www.pbase.com/rickdecker/canon_digital_rebel
Leon
This is topic numero ono around here. I think there were three
threads about sharpness just last night. Check your lens focusing.
(topic numero dos) How sophisticated are your photoshop skills?
This camera was built to allow ... make that demand post processing
work. Have you read about local contrast enhancement on Luminous
Landscape. It's still on the front page. Other articles about
sharpening on LL as well. For those of us who do not wish to
become photoshop experts there are several purveyors of 'actions'
like Fred Miranda and Nic Sharpener that will go to work on your
photos with the use of layers and multiple processes that do
wonders. The down and dirty of it is this camera will not take
photos like a P&S. But it will take bigger better ones if you are
willing to do the post processing.

--
http://www.pbase.com/sfleming

Too many cameras ... not nearly enough photography.
--
Chris Florio
-------
'You guys taken enough pictures already?' -- Tiger Woods
http://www.floriopics.com
http://www.caryacademyphoto.com
 
I don't understand your comment. I don't have both camera, only 10D. For me it is very good. But I have never compared to any other DSLR, saddly just own one ...
I am not sure it is the best way to do because some people will
always says Fuji ... is much better, Sigma ... is tack sharp, 10D
is soft and not usable ...

I do not think sharpness is the most important thing. Contrast,
colors, low noise are very important too.

Here is my contribution to the sharp image gallery. This picture is
not intended to be my sharpest. I took one of the last pictures I
took and cropped it to show that they are not soft

This picture was taken with the cheapest Canon Lens : 50mm1.8

@F4.5 : should be much sharper at F8
Shutter : 1/50 sec
ISO : 100
Fill-in flash : 420ex
USM : The "Low" of FredMiranda 10D CSPro

100% crop



Full picture



--
Stéphan (from France)
http://www.pbase.com/atoova
--
http://www.fototime.com/inv/2DE8A73EF9811C6
--
Stéphan (from France)
http://www.pbase.com/atoova
 
Vern...

I agree with you. I came from the Canon G2 and initially thought the 10D shots were too soft. But...I figured out that most of the problem was ME! My G2 shots were too sharp also. But I got very complacent with being able to take a shot and crop up quite a bit. Now with the 10D, I can crop, but not to the degree that I could with the G2. I actually love the softness that I get from my photos with the 10D...adds some depth to the shot. Plus, I was also using my 70-200mm lens. I also needed to remember that I was hand holding some shots where my shutter speeds were too slow.

Moral of the story? I HAVE to think more about my shots, settings, focal length, etc. And my "hit ratio" is improving as I learn.

Judy :)
There is a reason the 10D gets all those great reviews, it's a
great camera. It's just and adjustment from P&S cameras, a little
culture shock. You can almost think of a DSLR image as a
"negative", especially so if you shoot RAW images. From that
negative, you have more control over the final image. I too
learned to benefits of Capture One: LE. Used it a few days then
bought it. Now I shot almost all RAW. Sounds scary to some, but
it's not that hard.

VES
This topic gets discussed a lot. Many people making the transition
to the 10D (or any DSLR for that matter) seem surprised by how
"soft" the images appear out of camera. The 10D gives you a better,
unprocessed, artifact-free image to start with. It then requires
some post-processing to get the final result, but that final result
will blow any P&S camera out of the water. And it takes minutes,
not hours to achieve those results in Photoshop; the process can be
automated in many ways with great software tools, like C1LE,
BreezeBrowser, etc. My ideas: read here, learn the tools, and soon
you'll be very happy that you switched to the 10D.
--
My pictures may only be worth 500 words, but I'm taking a
Photographic English Composition course.


Grateful for any constructive criticism regarding my photos,
composition, lighting, technique, etc.

http://www.pbase.com/vsteven
 
Nikon D100 does more sharpening in-camera than the 10D. Too much
IMO. But the 10D very slightly (too slight to really matter IMO)
This is not correct. The D100 is the most conservative -- in terms of in-camera sharpening -- of any dSLR on the market. In fact the Nikon forum experienced much the same un-informed complaints about "soft images" when it first hit the market. It took a number of months for the complaints to fizzle out.

The D100 still uses less sharpening and processing in-camera than does the 10D, although it's much closer than the previous D60.

Brendan
==========
Equipment list in profile -- where it BELONGS!
 
Any ideas?
What makes this subject so controversial and so heated are the varying definitions of term "Sharpness" and what is expected by any particular individual. I still do not believe that the 10D is equal to equivalently-cropped 35mm film (neg or slide) in terms of resolution, despite what Reichman or others may think or "prove." Additionally, there are physical elements that enter into the equation that contribute to a deterioration in the out-of-camera image detail.

SHARPNESS definition #1:

Typically, this particular question/complaint is posed by those migrating (upgrading) from one of the highly-capable "prosumer" P&S digicams. These cameras, as has been pointed out ad nauseam, heavily process the image internally "on-the-fly" to produce sharp, colorful, vibrant photos able to be printed directly from the storage media without user intervention. To this end, they perform their duty admirably and give the vast majority of their owners results they consider satisfactory. In light of the fact that you are comparing your pre-processed 10D images directly to those produced from your Sony F707, I would submit that you fall into this category. In short, either learn how to love processing virtually ALL of your images to some extent, or return your 10D and stick with the Sony.

SHARPNESS definition #2

We all know the standard dSLR mantra of "doing as little in-camera processing as possible to allow more flexibility to the photographer in processing the image." This is, for the most part, accurate. Preservation of resolution as well as highlight, shadow, and color detail requires a very light hand in terms of processing -- one dSLR manufacturers feel is best left to the varying tastes of the individual owner. However, concerning the 10D there are other issues involved -- first of which would be a very prominent, effective AA or "Anti-Aliasing" filter fitted to the imaging sensor. This dramatically "dulls" image detail captured by the camera to avoid aliasing problems inherent in CCD/CMOS imagers. This can ONLY be overcome by applying some form of image sharpening in post processing. There is no avoiding it -- period.

I personally have experimented by taking the same image, from the same tripod, using the same lens (a group portrait, in fact) with both the 10D and a Rebel 2000 with Fuji Provia 200 using 24-70/2.8L lens. Using standard Photoshop processing (the newly-posted "10D Finisher" Action), and Genuine Fractals to resize to 300DPI @ 12 x 18, then printing both at 12 x 18 from a Noritsu 2901 (Costco), the film print CLEARLY held substantially more detail. It was much, much sharper. I should note that the film slide was scanned by a commercial service using a very expensive drum scanner ($200K) into a 130MB TIFF file. I then processed it in PS as well with some levels and USM. Even downsizing it to the same image size as the native 10D image conclusively resolved more detail than the same-sized digital image.

None of this is to say that the 10D can't produce "sharp" images, because it can and does and I am relatively satisfied with the results. However it is not the panacea of image quality that some may tout it to be, and it is decimated by most 35mm and certainly any Medium Format films -- regardless of what some people claim. Just because their scanning equipment or technique doesn't CAPTURE the detail doesn't mean that the film itself doesn't HAVE the detail. Just reverse the process for proof-positive (print any dSLR image to slide film and see). Even the mighty 1Ds isn't quite there yet, regardless of some of the dubious "proof" that some proffer.

In the final analysis, assuming the image was properly captured, a correctly-processed 10D image will humiliate virtually any competing image from any P&S camera currently available -- including the F7x7. As to whether you or the others are willing to invest the necessary time and talent into extracting the best from those images is your prerogative. One which we are not going to force upon you, as only you know your preference in this matter.

Brendan
==========
Equipment list in profile -- where it BELONGS!
 
This is a beautiful image of the little girl. VERY sharp. Good job.
I am not sure it is the best way to do because some people will
always says Fuji ... is much better, Sigma ... is tack sharp, 10D
is soft and not usable ...

I do not think sharpness is the most important thing. Contrast,
colors, low noise are very important too.

Here is my contribution to the sharp image gallery. This picture is
not intended to be my sharpest. I took one of the last pictures I
took and cropped it to show that they are not soft

This picture was taken with the cheapest Canon Lens : 50mm1.8

@F4.5 : should be much sharper at F8
Shutter : 1/50 sec
ISO : 100
Fill-in flash : 420ex
USM : The "Low" of FredMiranda 10D CSPro

100% crop



Full picture



--
Stéphan (from France)
http://www.pbase.com/atoova
 
Brendan - very well done on your part.

Hope everybody reads this as I feel you have put a lot information into a well written and correct perspective.

Regards,

Joe Kurkjian, Pbase Supporter

http://www.pbase.com/jkurkjia
Any ideas?
What makes this subject so controversial and so heated are the
varying definitions of term "Sharpness" and what is expected by any
particular individual. I still do not believe that the 10D is equal
to equivalently-cropped 35mm film (neg or slide) in terms of
resolution, despite what Reichman or others may think or "prove."
Additionally, there are physical elements that enter into the
equation that contribute to a deterioration in the out-of-camera
image detail.

SHARPNESS definition #1:

Typically, this particular question/complaint is posed by those
migrating (upgrading) from one of the highly-capable "prosumer" P&S
digicams. These cameras, as has been pointed out ad nauseam,
heavily process the image internally "on-the-fly" to produce sharp,
colorful, vibrant photos able to be printed directly from the
storage media without user intervention. To this end, they perform
their duty admirably and give the vast majority of their owners
results they consider satisfactory. In light of the fact that you
are comparing your pre-processed 10D images directly to those
produced from your Sony F707, I would submit that you fall into
this category. In short, either learn how to love processing
virtually ALL of your images to some extent, or return your 10D and
stick with the Sony.

SHARPNESS definition #2

We all know the standard dSLR mantra of "doing as little in-camera
processing as possible to allow more flexibility to the
photographer in processing the image." This is, for the most part,
accurate. Preservation of resolution as well as highlight, shadow,
and color detail requires a very light hand in terms of processing
-- one dSLR manufacturers feel is best left to the varying tastes
of the individual owner. However, concerning the 10D there are
other issues involved -- first of which would be a very prominent,
effective AA or "Anti-Aliasing" filter fitted to the imaging
sensor. This dramatically "dulls" image detail captured by the
camera to avoid aliasing problems inherent in CCD/CMOS imagers.
This can ONLY be overcome by applying some form of image sharpening
in post processing. There is no avoiding it -- period.

I personally have experimented by taking the same image, from the
same tripod, using the same lens (a group portrait, in fact) with
both the 10D and a Rebel 2000 with Fuji Provia 200 using 24-70/2.8L
lens. Using standard Photoshop processing (the newly-posted "10D
Finisher" Action), and Genuine Fractals to resize to 300DPI @ 12 x
18, then printing both at 12 x 18 from a Noritsu 2901 (Costco), the
film print CLEARLY held substantially more detail. It was much,
much sharper. I should note that the film slide was scanned by a
commercial service using a very expensive drum scanner ($200K) into
a 130MB TIFF file. I then processed it in PS as well with some
levels and USM. Even downsizing it to the same image size as the
native 10D image conclusively resolved more detail than the
same-sized digital image.

None of this is to say that the 10D can't produce "sharp" images,
because it can and does and I am relatively satisfied with the
results. However it is not the panacea of image quality that some
may tout it to be, and it is decimated by most 35mm and certainly
any Medium Format films -- regardless of what some people claim.
Just because their scanning equipment or technique doesn't CAPTURE
the detail doesn't mean that the film itself doesn't HAVE the
detail. Just reverse the process for proof-positive (print any dSLR
image to slide film and see). Even the mighty 1Ds isn't quite there
yet, regardless of some of the dubious "proof" that some proffer.

In the final analysis, assuming the image was properly captured, a
correctly-processed 10D image will humiliate virtually any
competing image from any P&S camera currently available --
including the F7x7. As to whether you or the others are willing to
invest the necessary time and talent into extracting the best from
those images is your prerogative. One which we are not going to
force upon you, as only you know your preference in this matter.

Brendan
==========
Equipment list in profile -- where it BELONGS!
 
Very good information. I believe i would fall into the definition #1 category. here's to more shooting and learning.
Any ideas?
What makes this subject so controversial and so heated are the
varying definitions of term "Sharpness" and what is expected by any
particular individual. I still do not believe that the 10D is equal
to equivalently-cropped 35mm film (neg or slide) in terms of
resolution, despite what Reichman or others may think or "prove."
Additionally, there are physical elements that enter into the
equation that contribute to a deterioration in the out-of-camera
image detail.

SHARPNESS definition #1:

Typically, this particular question/complaint is posed by those
migrating (upgrading) from one of the highly-capable "prosumer" P&S
digicams. These cameras, as has been pointed out ad nauseam,
heavily process the image internally "on-the-fly" to produce sharp,
colorful, vibrant photos able to be printed directly from the
storage media without user intervention. To this end, they perform
their duty admirably and give the vast majority of their owners
results they consider satisfactory. In light of the fact that you
are comparing your pre-processed 10D images directly to those
produced from your Sony F707, I would submit that you fall into
this category. In short, either learn how to love processing
virtually ALL of your images to some extent, or return your 10D and
stick with the Sony.

SHARPNESS definition #2

We all know the standard dSLR mantra of "doing as little in-camera
processing as possible to allow more flexibility to the
photographer in processing the image." This is, for the most part,
accurate. Preservation of resolution as well as highlight, shadow,
and color detail requires a very light hand in terms of processing
-- one dSLR manufacturers feel is best left to the varying tastes
of the individual owner. However, concerning the 10D there are
other issues involved -- first of which would be a very prominent,
effective AA or "Anti-Aliasing" filter fitted to the imaging
sensor. This dramatically "dulls" image detail captured by the
camera to avoid aliasing problems inherent in CCD/CMOS imagers.
This can ONLY be overcome by applying some form of image sharpening
in post processing. There is no avoiding it -- period.

I personally have experimented by taking the same image, from the
same tripod, using the same lens (a group portrait, in fact) with
both the 10D and a Rebel 2000 with Fuji Provia 200 using 24-70/2.8L
lens. Using standard Photoshop processing (the newly-posted "10D
Finisher" Action), and Genuine Fractals to resize to 300DPI @ 12 x
18, then printing both at 12 x 18 from a Noritsu 2901 (Costco), the
film print CLEARLY held substantially more detail. It was much,
much sharper. I should note that the film slide was scanned by a
commercial service using a very expensive drum scanner ($200K) into
a 130MB TIFF file. I then processed it in PS as well with some
levels and USM. Even downsizing it to the same image size as the
native 10D image conclusively resolved more detail than the
same-sized digital image.

None of this is to say that the 10D can't produce "sharp" images,
because it can and does and I am relatively satisfied with the
results. However it is not the panacea of image quality that some
may tout it to be, and it is decimated by most 35mm and certainly
any Medium Format films -- regardless of what some people claim.
Just because their scanning equipment or technique doesn't CAPTURE
the detail doesn't mean that the film itself doesn't HAVE the
detail. Just reverse the process for proof-positive (print any dSLR
image to slide film and see). Even the mighty 1Ds isn't quite there
yet, regardless of some of the dubious "proof" that some proffer.

In the final analysis, assuming the image was properly captured, a
correctly-processed 10D image will humiliate virtually any
competing image from any P&S camera currently available --
including the F7x7. As to whether you or the others are willing to
invest the necessary time and talent into extracting the best from
those images is your prerogative. One which we are not going to
force upon you, as only you know your preference in this matter.

Brendan
==========
Equipment list in profile -- where it BELONGS!
 
Very good information. Thanks. I believe i would fall into the definition #1 category. here's to more shooting and learning.
Any ideas?
What makes this subject so controversial and so heated are the
varying definitions of term "Sharpness" and what is expected by any
particular individual. I still do not believe that the 10D is equal
to equivalently-cropped 35mm film (neg or slide) in terms of
resolution, despite what Reichman or others may think or "prove."
Additionally, there are physical elements that enter into the
equation that contribute to a deterioration in the out-of-camera
image detail.

SHARPNESS definition #1:

Typically, this particular question/complaint is posed by those
migrating (upgrading) from one of the highly-capable "prosumer" P&S
digicams. These cameras, as has been pointed out ad nauseam,
heavily process the image internally "on-the-fly" to produce sharp,
colorful, vibrant photos able to be printed directly from the
storage media without user intervention. To this end, they perform
their duty admirably and give the vast majority of their owners
results they consider satisfactory. In light of the fact that you
are comparing your pre-processed 10D images directly to those
produced from your Sony F707, I would submit that you fall into
this category. In short, either learn how to love processing
virtually ALL of your images to some extent, or return your 10D and
stick with the Sony.

SHARPNESS definition #2

We all know the standard dSLR mantra of "doing as little in-camera
processing as possible to allow more flexibility to the
photographer in processing the image." This is, for the most part,
accurate. Preservation of resolution as well as highlight, shadow,
and color detail requires a very light hand in terms of processing
-- one dSLR manufacturers feel is best left to the varying tastes
of the individual owner. However, concerning the 10D there are
other issues involved -- first of which would be a very prominent,
effective AA or "Anti-Aliasing" filter fitted to the imaging
sensor. This dramatically "dulls" image detail captured by the
camera to avoid aliasing problems inherent in CCD/CMOS imagers.
This can ONLY be overcome by applying some form of image sharpening
in post processing. There is no avoiding it -- period.

I personally have experimented by taking the same image, from the
same tripod, using the same lens (a group portrait, in fact) with
both the 10D and a Rebel 2000 with Fuji Provia 200 using 24-70/2.8L
lens. Using standard Photoshop processing (the newly-posted "10D
Finisher" Action), and Genuine Fractals to resize to 300DPI @ 12 x
18, then printing both at 12 x 18 from a Noritsu 2901 (Costco), the
film print CLEARLY held substantially more detail. It was much,
much sharper. I should note that the film slide was scanned by a
commercial service using a very expensive drum scanner ($200K) into
a 130MB TIFF file. I then processed it in PS as well with some
levels and USM. Even downsizing it to the same image size as the
native 10D image conclusively resolved more detail than the
same-sized digital image.

None of this is to say that the 10D can't produce "sharp" images,
because it can and does and I am relatively satisfied with the
results. However it is not the panacea of image quality that some
may tout it to be, and it is decimated by most 35mm and certainly
any Medium Format films -- regardless of what some people claim.
Just because their scanning equipment or technique doesn't CAPTURE
the detail doesn't mean that the film itself doesn't HAVE the
detail. Just reverse the process for proof-positive (print any dSLR
image to slide film and see). Even the mighty 1Ds isn't quite there
yet, regardless of some of the dubious "proof" that some proffer.

In the final analysis, assuming the image was properly captured, a
correctly-processed 10D image will humiliate virtually any
competing image from any P&S camera currently available --
including the F7x7. As to whether you or the others are willing to
invest the necessary time and talent into extracting the best from
those images is your prerogative. One which we are not going to
force upon you, as only you know your preference in this matter.

Brendan
==========
Equipment list in profile -- where it BELONGS!
 
What is Provia 200? I have never heard of such a thing. Pro's do not use ISO 200 film. It's pointless. Fuji makes Provia 100F and Provia 400F, unless there is some secret film they gave you access to...

And on the film vs. digital front, you have scared me. Every comparison I have seen between a 10D and Provia 100F shows the 10D goes toe-to-toe and surpasses it in certain respects. If this is true, that Provia knocks the socks off 6MP camera's, then I won't get into digital for years to come, because Provia 100F (135) isn't good enough for me, and that's my favorite 135 film. I might just get a 4x5 and laugh at DSLR sharpness posts....

Anyway, I'm meeting someone soon to do a digital vs film shoot-out in several days. Then I will know for sure, and I will certainly post the results.

-¥akuza
nick onken wrote:
I personally have experimented by taking the same image, from the
same tripod, using the same lens (a group portrait, in fact) with
both the 10D and a Rebel 2000 with Fuji Provia 200 using 24-70/2.8L
lens. Using standard Photoshop processing (the newly-posted "10D
Finisher" Action), and Genuine Fractals to resize to 300DPI @ 12 x
18, then printing both at 12 x 18 from a Noritsu 2901 (Costco), the
film print CLEARLY held substantially more detail. It was much,
much sharper. I should note that the film slide was scanned by a
commercial service using a very expensive drum scanner ($200K) into
a 130MB TIFF file. I then processed it in PS as well with some
levels and USM. Even downsizing it to the same image size as the
native 10D image conclusively resolved more detail than the
same-sized digital image.
 
Very good information. Thanks. I believe i would fall into the
definition #1 category. here's to more shooting and learning.
...you will come to actually PREFER the unprocessed images. Here's why:

There is an old cliché "Pigs don't know pigs stink." Don't be offended, as it's not meant to be an insult, but rather a poignant "teaching tool."

Up until the introduction of the Nikon D100, my digital camera had been the wonderful Sony DSC-D770 "SLR." This was the forerunner of the current SLR-style, fixed lens, "prosumer" digicams like the E20, Dimage 7i, Nikon 5700, etc. I was tickled pink with this camera and thought the images from it were superb and never really thought I would want for more.

Enter the D100.

It didn't take long to finally gain a first-hand understanding of two other clichés -- "You don't know what you don't know," and "Ignorance is bliss." In short, if you're happy as a pig in the wallow (ie: if you're happy bathing in stinking mud), then you may want to seriously consider staying where you are, because when you finally begin to really SEE the differences (that were there all along, but you needed someone to call your attention to them) you'll never be able to return to your previous condition -- because you'll realize that it is MUD.

Don't take this the wrong way. I'm not saying that you or your Sony are mud, but once your eyes are opened you will indeed recite the old hymn verse "where as once I was blind, now I can see."

If you were to take the same image, from the same tripod, at (roughly) the same time, with both the 10D and the Sony F7x7 using their optimal settings, and them import both of those images to a properly calibrated display, with someone by your side capable of pointing out the REAL differences, you would be astonished -- I mean jaw-droppingly amazed. When someone points out just what you are missing you will get the "picture." To the vast majority of lay people (grin), the Sony image will look better and they would choose it every time and wonder what is wrong with your expensive Canon dSLR.

However...

When you look closely, when you see the jagged edges of an over-sharpened image, the blown highlights, the shadow noise, the over-saturated colors (all of which are desired by most consumers), all of these things that can NEVER be recovered because of the in-camera over-processing, and then you compare it to what initially looks like a dull, lifeless, unprocessed 10D image -- the proverbial "diamond in the rough" comes immediately to mind. To digress further, remembering the story of Michaelangelo and his famous sculpture of the Statue of David, someone purportedly asked him how he was able to sculpt such an exquisite masterpiece. His response was "it was always there, I just uncovered it."

Likewise, all of that information that was lost in the F7x7 image is retained -- though seemingly hidden -- in the 10D image, but it needs to be UNCOVERED or retrieved via proper processing by the photographer using tools like Photoshop, etc. Many automated tools and actions have popped up across the digital landscape to aid in the simplification of this processing, but substantial due dilligence is an absolute requirement on your part to find which works best and is most suited to your personal tastes and abilities.

In short, stick with it and watch this new world open up to you. The reward for your perseverence will be the ascension to the "next level" in your photography.

Brendan
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Equipment list in profile -- where it BELONGS!
 
And on the film vs. digital front, you have scared me. Every
comparison I have seen between a 10D and Provia 100F shows the 10D
goes toe-to-toe and surpasses it in certain respects. If this is
true, that Provia knocks the socks off 6MP camera's, then I won't
get into digital for years to come, because Provia 100F (135) isn't
good enough for me, and that's my favorite 135 film. I might just
get a 4x5 and laugh at DSLR sharpness posts....

Anyway, I'm meeting someone soon to do a digital vs film shoot-out
in several days. Then I will know for sure, and I will certainly
post the results.

-¥akuza
nick onken wrote:
I personally have experimented by taking the same image, from the
same tripod, using the same lens (a group portrait, in fact) with
both the 10D and a Rebel 2000 with Fuji Provia 200 using 24-70/2.8L
lens. Using standard Photoshop processing (the newly-posted "10D
Finisher" Action), and Genuine Fractals to resize to 300DPI @ 12 x
18, then printing both at 12 x 18 from a Noritsu 2901 (Costco), the
film print CLEARLY held substantially more detail. It was much,
much sharper. I should note that the film slide was scanned by a
commercial service using a very expensive drum scanner ($200K) into
a 130MB TIFF file. I then processed it in PS as well with some
levels and USM. Even downsizing it to the same image size as the
native 10D image conclusively resolved more detail than the
same-sized digital image.
--
Brendan
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Equipment list in profile -- where it BELONGS!
 
The only problem I see in your analysis is you are comparing a 10d and a very high end SCAN of film. Have you compared a traditional film print to a 10d print? I have and get exactly the opposite results of yours, even other photogs (working pros) have judged the digital prints to be better.

Now, I should say that my 35mm film scanner produced much better prints from my film camera than traditional wet prints. I went digital to eliminate the scanning of the film step (wanna talk about time in front of the computer just sit down and scan 1 roll of film with a film scanner). Before that, I printed everything in house with my beloved enlarger, great prints, but even more time to process than scanning film and still not get prints as good as the ones I get from my 10D, or D30 for that matter.
 

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