10D image sharpness

[nick onken149343]

I just picked up the 10D last week. I shot a wedding with it this weekend. After looking though the photos, looking at the images at 100% in photoshop, they're really soft. I had a Sony F707 previously, and have compared my 10D images to the sony images and the sharpness of the sony dominates the 10D sharpness. I've tried unsharpen mask in photoshop, with the 10D images and still can't get the sharpness of the sony.

I've got a Tameron 24-135mm on there right now, but I've been into camera store and taken a couple shots with a Canon L glass series and it's still soft.

A little frustrated.. yeah.. after dropping $1500 for a camera body that has had nothing but great reviews, one would think that it would give sharper images than a consumer sony without spending hours of editing time.

Any ideas?

 

[Scott Fleming]

This is topic numero ono around here. I think there were three threads about sharpness just last night. Check your lens focusing. (topic numero dos) How sophisticated are your photoshop skills? This camera was built to allow ... make that demand post processing work. Have you read about local contrast enhancement on Luminous Landscape. It's still on the front page. Other articles about sharpening on LL as well. For those of us who do not wish to become photoshop experts there are several purveyors of 'actions' like Fred Miranda and Nic Sharpener that will go to work on your photos with the use of layers and multiple processes that do wonders. The down and dirty of it is this camera will not take photos like a P&S. But it will take bigger better ones if you are willing to do the post processing.

--
http://www.pbase.com/sfleming

Too many cameras ... not nearly enough photography.

 

[Derekasaurus Rex]

This topic gets discussed a lot. Many people making the transition to the 10D (or any DSLR for that matter) seem surprised by how "soft" the images appear out of camera. The 10D gives you a better, unprocessed, artifact-free image to start with. It then requires some post-processing to get the final result, but that final result will blow any P&S camera out of the water. And it takes minutes, not hours to achieve those results in Photoshop; the process can be automated in many ways with great software tools, like C1LE, BreezeBrowser, etc. My ideas: read here, learn the tools, and soon you'll be very happy that you switched to the 10D.

I just picked up the 10D last week. I shot a wedding with it this
weekend. After looking though the photos, looking at the images at
100% in photoshop, they're really soft. I had a Sony F707
previously, and have compared my 10D images to the sony images and
the sharpness of the sony dominates the 10D sharpness. I've tried
unsharpen mask in photoshop, with the 10D images and still can't
get the sharpness of the sony.

I've got a Tameron 24-135mm on there right now, but I've been into
camera store and taken a couple shots with a Canon L glass series
and it's still soft.

A little frustrated.. yeah.. after dropping $1500 for a camera body
that has had nothing but great reviews, one would think that it
would give sharper images than a consumer sony without spending
hours of editing time.

Any ideas?

 

[Vern Stevens]

Ill attest to that. I got my 10D and thought the same thing at first. It wasn't as sharp as my Coolpix 995. But then as I read more, learned more, and started comparing images, I began to find the 995 pics where HARSHLY sharp, and overall the pictures weren't as pleasing.

There is a reason the 10D gets all those great reviews, it's a great camera. It's just and adjustment from P&S cameras, a little culture shock. You can almost think of a DSLR image as a "negative", especially so if you shoot RAW images. From that negative, you have more control over the final image. I too learned to benefits of Capture One: LE. Used it a few days then bought it. Now I shot almost all RAW. Sounds scary to some, but it's not that hard.

VES

This topic gets discussed a lot. Many people making the transition
to the 10D (or any DSLR for that matter) seem surprised by how
"soft" the images appear out of camera. The 10D gives you a better,
unprocessed, artifact-free image to start with. It then requires
some post-processing to get the final result, but that final result
will blow any P&S camera out of the water. And it takes minutes,
not hours to achieve those results in Photoshop; the process can be
automated in many ways with great software tools, like C1LE,
BreezeBrowser, etc. My ideas: read here, learn the tools, and soon
you'll be very happy that you switched to the 10D.

--

My pictures may only be worth 500 words, but I'm taking a Photographic English Composition course.

Grateful for any constructive criticism regarding my photos, composition, lighting, technique, etc.

http://www.pbase.com/vsteven

 

[Dave Z154236]

I can also attest to that . You can convert RAW or you can just bump up the sharpness setting in your 10D and let the camera do it. I think you'll find that before long, you'll probably start shooting RAW and demand complete control over your sharpness processing.
Enjoy!
Dave Z

There is a reason the 10D gets all those great reviews, it's a
great camera. It's just and adjustment from P&S cameras, a little
culture shock. You can almost think of a DSLR image as a
"negative", especially so if you shoot RAW images. From that
negative, you have more control over the final image. I too
learned to benefits of Capture One: LE. Used it a few days then
bought it. Now I shot almost all RAW. Sounds scary to some, but
it's not that hard.

VES

This topic gets discussed a lot. Many people making the transition
to the 10D (or any DSLR for that matter) seem surprised by how
"soft" the images appear out of camera. The 10D gives you a better,
unprocessed, artifact-free image to start with. It then requires
some post-processing to get the final result, but that final result
will blow any P&S camera out of the water. And it takes minutes,
not hours to achieve those results in Photoshop; the process can be
automated in many ways with great software tools, like C1LE,
BreezeBrowser, etc. My ideas: read here, learn the tools, and soon
you'll be very happy that you switched to the 10D.

--
My pictures may only be worth 500 words, but I'm taking a
Photographic English Composition course.


Grateful for any constructive criticism regarding my photos,
composition, lighting, technique, etc.

http://www.pbase.com/vsteven

 

[Peter Phan]

There are tons of great sharpening actions on the web, some for free, some for a very small fee. I've collected so many sharpening actions, I don't even remember where they came from. Do a google search for "photoshop sharpening actions" and download a few to try. Also do a search here at dpreview. A lot of my sharpening actions were picked up from recommendations here.

Once you find one or two sharpening actions you like, just batch sharpen your pictures. The results I get from my favorite actions are phenomenal.

One of my favorite suite of actions is simply titled "basic_actions" in my actions pallet. In it, there is Sharpen I (Low), Sharpen II (High), Sharpen III (Web/Slideshow). I mainly use Sharpen I. Problem is, I don't have the faintest idea where I picked it up from. Anyone know? Works great.

I just picked up the 10D last week. I shot a wedding with it this
weekend. After looking though the photos, looking at the images at
100% in photoshop, they're really soft. I had a Sony F707
previously, and have compared my 10D images to the sony images and
the sharpness of the sony dominates the 10D sharpness. I've tried
unsharpen mask in photoshop, with the 10D images and still can't
get the sharpness of the sony.

I've got a Tameron 24-135mm on there right now, but I've been into
camera store and taken a couple shots with a Canon L glass series
and it's still soft.

A little frustrated.. yeah.. after dropping $1500 for a camera body
that has had nothing but great reviews, one would think that it
would give sharper images than a consumer sony without spending
hours of editing time.

Any ideas?

 

[Wei Cheong Yap]

Try the sharpening action if u like

http://www.robgalbraith.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB8&Number=162383&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

 

[Ben Strasser]

A little USM in Photoshop and upsizing with SI Pro and you can get 20x30 prints with this kind of resolution from your 10D.



I used a Canon 17-40 f/4 L series lens. After shooting hundreds of weddings with MF, the 10D is every bit as good as MF. BTW - shot this image .jpg and not RAW.

I just picked up the 10D last week. I shot a wedding with it this
weekend. After looking though the photos, looking at the images at
100% in photoshop, they're really soft. I had a Sony F707
previously, and have compared my 10D images to the sony images and
the sharpness of the sony dominates the 10D sharpness. I've tried
unsharpen mask in photoshop, with the 10D images and still can't
get the sharpness of the sony.

I've got a Tameron 24-135mm on there right now, but I've been into
camera store and taken a couple shots with a Canon L glass series
and it's still soft.

A little frustrated.. yeah.. after dropping $1500 for a camera body
that has had nothing but great reviews, one would think that it
would give sharper images than a consumer sony without spending
hours of editing time.

Any ideas?

 

[cgardner]

Man do I feel your pain.

I was in the same boat a month ago with the 717 vs the 10D and I even went to the trouble to post comparison shots. I got some help from the forum but not much which was spot on, and most people wanted to criticize me before they would criticize the camera.

anyway, this was my eventual, humble, non pro deduction.

The 10Ds in camera JPG production software is mediocre. Distinctly OK.

I no longer use any JPGs from the camera. The camera excells when you take the RAW image and process it through Camera One (by Phase One)

(im sure Adobe Camera Raw is good as well, but it does not natively support the 10D yet and Im not into using hacks)

Raw images from the 10D are incredibly detailed and can endure an incredible amount of sharpening. After adjusting my mindset to using the camera this way I have become quite satisfied with the camera, and the process, as I have more controll and I am more critical of my images.

Best of Luck

 

[S. Miller]

Vern and Derek,

Having read countless posts here on the subject, I conceptually agree with your thoughts on the quality of the raw material file coming straight out of the 10D. I just got mine last week and am so ecstatic to be back in the world of interchangeable lenses, imperceptible focus/shutter lag, and control of depth of field.

So here's my question (asked out of paranoia, having read countless posts about the focus issue):

How do you judge the accuracy of the AF if the shot straight out of the camera is soft? Do you apply sharpening to it? Sorry if this seems a bit stupid but the argument is somewhat circuitous to me. I can obviously tell if something is in "relative focus" straight out of the camera. Should this be the test, i.e. if the AF point is clearly the point that is most in focus before sharpening, should this mean that the camera/lens are focusing correctly? By the way, I don't care if my focus is 5 mm off and only noticeable when I view the image at 100% in PS.

Hope this is clear. Thanks in advance,

Steve

There is a reason the 10D gets all those great reviews, it's a
great camera. It's just and adjustment from P&S cameras, a little
culture shock. You can almost think of a DSLR image as a
"negative", especially so if you shoot RAW images. From that
negative, you have more control over the final image. I too
learned to benefits of Capture One: LE. Used it a few days then
bought it. Now I shot almost all RAW. Sounds scary to some, but
it's not that hard.

VES

This topic gets discussed a lot. Many people making the transition
to the 10D (or any DSLR for that matter) seem surprised by how
"soft" the images appear out of camera. The 10D gives you a better,
unprocessed, artifact-free image to start with. It then requires
some post-processing to get the final result, but that final result
will blow any P&S camera out of the water. And it takes minutes,
not hours to achieve those results in Photoshop; the process can be
automated in many ways with great software tools, like C1LE,
BreezeBrowser, etc. My ideas: read here, learn the tools, and soon
you'll be very happy that you switched to the 10D.

--
My pictures may only be worth 500 words, but I'm taking a
Photographic English Composition course.


Grateful for any constructive criticism regarding my photos,
composition, lighting, technique, etc.

http://www.pbase.com/vsteven

 

[Jochen]

...it's called a "polish".

J.

 

[Zmiki]

Can we expect the same from canon 300D?

Leon

This is topic numero ono around here. I think there were three
threads about sharpness just last night. Check your lens focusing.
(topic numero dos) How sophisticated are your photoshop skills?
This camera was built to allow ... make that demand post processing
work. Have you read about local contrast enhancement on Luminous
Landscape. It's still on the front page. Other articles about
sharpening on LL as well. For those of us who do not wish to
become photoshop experts there are several purveyors of 'actions'
like Fred Miranda and Nic Sharpener that will go to work on your
photos with the use of layers and multiple processes that do
wonders. The down and dirty of it is this camera will not take
photos like a P&S. But it will take bigger better ones if you are
willing to do the post processing.

--
http://www.pbase.com/sfleming

Too many cameras ... not nearly enough photography.

 

[Derekasaurus Rex]

Vern and Derek,

Having read countless posts here on the subject, I conceptually
agree with your thoughts on the quality of the raw material file
coming straight out of the 10D. I just got mine last week and am so
ecstatic to be back in the world of interchangeable lenses,
imperceptible focus/shutter lag, and control of depth of field.

So here's my question (asked out of paranoia, having read countless
posts about the focus issue):

How do you judge the accuracy of the AF if the shot straight out of
the camera is soft?

If you have read posts on AF accuracy, you are probably aware of the various AF test setups proposed in this forum. Pick one (whether a ruler or something more realistic), and perform the test with all of your lenses. As you said yourself, you can tell which part of the image is in "relative focus" even if it's not pixel sharp, and that should be your guide to where the AF locked. The in-DOF (in-focus) part of the image, even if not tack sharp, should be relatively sharper than the out-of-DOF part. That's why AF tests rely on finely spaced targets or a ruler; to make sure that there is SOMETHING to lock onto at every depth. That's also why AF testing is done with the lens wide open; to make DOF as shallow as possible, so it's as easy as possible to tell what part of the image is in relative focus.

Do you apply sharpening to it?

Generally no sharpening is needed when testing AF. Again, the in-DOF part of the image, even if not tack sharp, should be relatively sharper than the out-of-DOF part.

Sorry if this
seems a bit stupid but the argument is somewhat circuitous to me. I
can obviously tell if something is in "relative focus" straight out
of the camera. Should this be the test, i.e. if the AF point is
clearly the point that is most in focus before sharpening, should
this mean that the camera/lens are focusing correctly? By the way,
I don't care if my focus is 5 mm off and only noticeable when I
view the image at 100% in PS.

Exactly!

And while the in-focus part of the image will never be tack sharp without sharpening (at least by my standards), it should not be too soft either; but that's a different issue altogether. Objective image sharpness depends on many things, including which camera you are using (10D and 1D have very different AA filters), which lens/aperture you are using (the 24-70 is sharper than the 28-135), and sadly whether you have a good copy of the lens (sometimes the 24-70 is NOT as sharp as the 28-135, and you should send it back!). Skill and knowledge also factors into it; I have seen people post hand-held shots taken at 1/6 sec claiming their 10D isn't sharp.

Good luck.

Hope this is clear. Thanks in advance,

Steve

 

[Scott Fleming]

no text
--
http://www.pbase.com/sfleming

Too many cameras ... not nearly enough photography.

 

[Scott Fleming]

and is detailed in Luminous Landscape as I told you last night.
--
http://www.pbase.com/sfleming

Too many cameras ... not nearly enough photography.

 

[Gary Coombs]

I just picked up the 10D last week. I shot a wedding with it this
weekend. After looking though the photos, looking at the images at
100% in photoshop, they're really soft. I had a Sony F707
previously, and have compared my 10D images to the sony images and
the sharpness of the sony dominates the 10D sharpness. I've tried
unsharpen mask in photoshop, with the 10D images and still can't
get the sharpness of the sony.

I've got a Tameron 24-135mm on there right now, but I've been into
camera store and taken a couple shots with a Canon L glass series
and it's still soft.

A little frustrated.. yeah.. after dropping $1500 for a camera body
that has had nothing but great reviews, one would think that it
would give sharper images than a consumer sony without spending
hours of editing time.

Any ideas?

My 10D indeed takes sharp images. Of course you can adjust images to be what you want in Photoshop and I do use Photoshop quite a bit. But consider these two totally unprocessed images straight from the 10D as I shot them.

Canon 24-70 2.8L, 1/125, f/2.8, ISO 100, @153mm, Gitzo Tripod



Canon 70-200 2.8L IS, 1/500, f/5.6, ISO 400, @170mm, Hand-held



--
Gary Coombs
My Profile contains my Equipment List
http://GaryCoombs.com/10D/New
http://GaryCoombs.com/10D/Test

 

[Bruce B]

To me the image still isn't sharp. Look at the eye lashes - ear ring - hair or theeth.

This forum sounds like a version of "The Emperor's New Clothes". All these images posted that are supposed to show how sharp the 10D is. They usually are still soft. Nobody seems to ever say "Hey they just aren't sharp..

Either it'a sharp or it isn't.

I did a RAW comparison with a 10D and Nikon 100D. All settings in the cameras were set so that in camera processing was zeroed out in both cameras. Both cameras with 50mm lenses. The Nikon blows the 10D away.

I think that for the price of the 10D it isn't asking to much to expect it to be able to thake a sharp image without having to go through all kinds of work to sharpen it up.

My 10D is back at Canon again for focus problems. If they can't get it right this time, Ebay here we come!

I'm wearing my asbestos suit, so let the flames begin!

 

[dhphoto]

IMHO the most important factor when using the 10D is the quality of the lenses. Put a standard Canon zoom on and you just won't 'get' this camera. With really good 'L' glass the sensor sings and the 10D is simply fantastic, and yes you really do need to use RAW and do quite a lot of post processing, but thats the fun, isn't it!

I just picked up the 10D last week. I shot a wedding with it this
weekend. After looking though the photos, looking at the images at
100% in photoshop, they're really soft. I had a Sony F707
previously, and have compared my 10D images to the sony images and
the sharpness of the sony dominates the 10D sharpness. I've tried
unsharpen mask in photoshop, with the 10D images and still can't
get the sharpness of the sony.

I've got a Tameron 24-135mm on there right now, but I've been into
camera store and taken a couple shots with a Canon L glass series
and it's still soft.

A little frustrated.. yeah.. after dropping $1500 for a camera body
that has had nothing but great reviews, one would think that it
would give sharper images than a consumer sony without spending
hours of editing time.

Any ideas?

My 10D indeed takes sharp images. Of course you can adjust images
to be what you want in Photoshop and I do use Photoshop quite a
bit. But consider these two totally unprocessed images straight
from the 10D as I shot them.

Canon 24-70 2.8L, 1/125, f/2.8, ISO 100, @153mm, Gitzo Tripod



Canon 70-200 2.8L IS, 1/500, f/5.6, ISO 400, @170mm, Hand-held



--
Gary Coombs
My Profile contains my Equipment List
http://GaryCoombs.com/10D/New
http://GaryCoombs.com/10D/Test

 

[Gary Coombs]

IMHO the most important factor when using the 10D is the quality of
the lenses. Put a standard Canon zoom on and you just won't 'get'
this camera. With really good 'L' glass the sensor sings and the
10D is simply fantastic, and yes you really do need to use RAW and
do quite a lot of post processing, but thats the fun, isn't it!

I did NO post processing on these. None. And they indeed look sharp in anybody's book. At THIS size!!!

HOWEVER, look at these same images at 100% in Photoshop and if you are using my monitor, they are being examined at close range at 16" x 24". That is a HUGE enlargement! Looking at them at THAT magnification you would now frown, shake your head, and mumble words like "soft" and "disappointing" and "I expected more". Can photos from ANY 35mm camera bear that kind of scrutiny and still exhibit a razor sharp image? I think not.

--
Gary Coombs
My Profile contains my Equipment List
http://GaryCoombs.com/10D/New
http://GaryCoombs.com/10D/Test

 

[Gary Coombs]

To me the image still isn't sharp. Look at the eye lashes - ear
ring - hair or theeth.

This forum sounds like a version of "The Emperor's New Clothes".
All these images posted that are supposed to show how sharp the 10D
is. They usually are still soft. Nobody seems to ever say "Hey they
just aren't sharp..

Either it'a sharp or it isn't.
I did a RAW comparison with a 10D and Nikon 100D. All settings in
the cameras were set so that in camera processing was zeroed out in
both cameras. Both cameras with 50mm lenses. The Nikon blows the
10D away.

I think that for the price of the 10D it isn't asking to much to
expect it to be able to thake a sharp image without having to go
through all kinds of work to sharpen it up.

My 10D is back at Canon again for focus problems. If they can't get
it right this time, Ebay here we come!

I'm wearing my asbestos suit, so let the flames begin!

They are both excellent cameras. But Phil's resolution tests show the 10D to have a slightly higher resolution than the Nikon D100.

So I doubt if you have to keep your asbestos suit on for very long.

--
Gary Coombs
My Profile contains my Equipment List
http://GaryCoombs.com/10D/New
http://GaryCoombs.com/10D/Test