Metering difference

I understand all that quite well, thank you very much.

It doesn't really fit most of what I shoot, though.

Peter Phan said:

I think you need to educate yourself on the techniques and
principles of partial/spot metering. I highly recommend you take a
look at Charles Campbell's Chromazone Exposure System. It is a
metering/exposure technique originally designed for color slide
film, and fits perfectly with the exposure characteristics of
digital photography:

http://www.photonaturalist.com/chromazone/tutorial_2a.html ,

paying particular attention to the middle example on this page
titled "What Are Chromazones" here:
http://www.photonaturalist.com/chromazone/tutorial_2c.html

There's plenty of information here for you to absorb. Once you
understand this, you'll have a better understanding of when to use
partial metering and how to use partial metering.

Click to expand...

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

Your mistake is in assuming that I'm bashing the camera.

Pointing out differences (ones that may not be apparent to many) ahead of time is simply educational/informational.

There may be those who wonder why I would find these things to be limitations. Well, let them ask ahead of time. Those things may be things they'd find limiting, too. Or maybe not.

mark allen said:

This is my first aggressive post in nearly 2 years but I'm sick and
tired of this continual bashing of a camera that you have not yet
had the opportunity to try and have no intention of buying. I've
seen your posts about informing newbies but what are you really
concerned about?

Click to expand...

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

Dave,

Sorry if my post was confusing. I did not say you press the shutter halfway to use partial metering. I said if you use AE Lock (i.e. press the * button) the camera will use partial metering and then when you half-press the shutter it will lock focus. If it is like my 10D you can also half-press the shutter and it will lock focus and exposure (using evaluative metering), but if you then press the AE Lock button it will switch to partial (if selected on the 10D) and lock that reading.

Frank B

DavidP said:

Re-read page 78, though. You engage AE-lock by pressing the .
You don't need to press the half-shutter.

It appears to me that evaluative metering is what you get until you
press , at which time you're reading partial metering and the
exposure is locked.

So, you never get a chance to SEE the partial meter reading until
after you've locked it.

Frank B said:

I read the manual as saying that in P, AV, and Tv Modes if you half
press the shutter button the camera locks focus and exposure and
uses Evaluative metering. If you use the AE Lock button first the
camera uses Partial metering and does not lock focus until you
press the shutter. In M mode if you half press the shutter the
camera uses Center Weighted and if you use AE Lock it uses Partial.

Click to expand...

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

Click to expand...

DavidP said:

For very static subjects, what you suggest is OK. For things with
a bit more motion (doesn't have to be sports) it could get a bit
cumbersome.

Click to expand...

You need to refine your metering technique. Partial metering or evaluative metering are very easy to use, even for high-paced action. It's only when you are using both simultaneously as you propose that it gets complicated.

DavidP #28649 said:

Why would I want to know ahead of time? So I could determine if I
should open up more, or go to a higher ISO, etc, to get the shutter
speed I want.

Click to expand...

You can still do that AFTER you press -AE Lock. The locked value is a ratio of aperture and shutter. For example, if I've set f/5.6 in Av mode, press , and it gives me a corresponding shutter speed of 1/125 which I consider to be too slow, I can open up the aperture, and the LOCKED EXPOSURE RATIO will adjust accordingly. In other words, as I open up to f/2.8, the shutter speed will adjust accordingly to 1/250.

DavidP #28649 said:

If I think my evaluative metering is correct, then locked exposure
to see that the shutter speed dropped in half (making a hand-held
shot "iffy"), that would bug me. I wouldn't want to find out AFTER
I'd just locked exposure, causing me to miss the shot I wanted.

Click to expand...

I don't know what photographic background you have, but you're doing things a bit weird, and it's making things way more complicated than it needs to be. You need to determine which exposure mode you are going to rely on for any given exposure. In the above example, if the evaluative metering gives you a certain shutter speed, and a partial metering gives you a significantly different shutter speed, one is wrong (or at least less right for the way you want to render the image). For example, if you are taking an evaluative meter reading of a runner wearing white, and you "think my evaluative metering is correct", then a correctly done partial meter reading should give you the exact SAME exposure. In the example of a runner wearing white, a partial meter reading off of his white jersey with +1.5 exposure compensation should give the correct exposure, which should be the same as the evaluative meter reading.

DavidP #28649 said:

Obviously, that's just something you'd have to get used to with a
300D.

Click to expand...

Again, I really think you should read up on metering technique, particularly partial/spot metering technique. The issue isn't with the 300D. It's with your methodology.

lonnit said:

Can anyone explain the real metering diff between 300D and 10D

Click to expand...

The 300d has ALL the metering modes that the 10d has:
evaluative
partial
center weighted averaging

The camera metering behaves the same in the basic zones as with the 10d.

I don't know how other things such as exposure compensation in basic modes differs, but the metering itself is the same.

In creative modes(aperture priority, manual, shutter priority), the 10d allows the choice of any metering mode in any creative mode. The 300d defaults to evaluative metering for every mode except manual which defaults to center weighted, with the ability to switch to partial metering using the ae lock for any of the creative modes.

Long and the short is partial is always available, though you have to access it through the ae lock button. If you want center weighted use manual, evaluative is available for any of the other modes.

The reality is these limitations don't have to be a problem, the limitations seem to be designed to take account of the way most people would generally use the camera anyway.

Pardon me for my ignorance, but just WHAT IS this 'partial metering' all about?? And why do they call it 'partial' ???

Miscellaneous A70 pics
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/bdolson/a70/a70.html
Sincerely, Bob the Printer

Bob Dolson said:

Pardon me for my ignorance, but just WHAT IS this 'partial
metering' all about?? And why do they call it 'partial' ???

Click to expand...

Evaluative metering measures light from all portions of the viewfinder. Center-weighted metering also measures light from all portions of the viewfinder, but gives greatest weight to the central portion of the viewfinder. Partial metering only measures light at the central 9% of the viewfinder, ignoring everything else. As a result, partial metering can be a more precise, controlled, specific mode of light measurement-- if you have the skill to use it properly.

Peter Phan said:

You need to refine your metering technique. Partial metering or
evaluative metering are very easy to use, even for high-paced
action. It's only when you are using both simultaneously as you
propose that it gets complicated.

Click to expand...

Partial or evaluative are both usable . . but having the methodology switch on you after you lock exposure seems very counter-intuitive, and would frustrate me.

Peter Phan said:

You can still do that AFTER you press -AE Lock. The locked value
is a ratio of aperture and shutter. For example, if I've set f/5.6
in Av mode, press , and it gives me a corresponding shutter speed
of 1/125 which I consider to be too slow, I can open up the
aperture, and the LOCKED EXPOSURE RATIO will adjust accordingly.
In other words, as I open up to f/2.8, the shutter speed will
adjust accordingly to 1/250.

Click to expand...

Well, you're right . . . if one were already stopped down some. I almost always tend to be wide-open, so this would necessitate changing ISO, which isn't quite as quick to do.

Peter Phan said:

I don't know what photographic background you have, but you're
doing things a bit weird, and it's making things way more
complicated than it needs to be.

Click to expand...

It doesn't seem weird to me.

Peter Phan said:

You need to determine which
exposure mode you are going to rely on for any given exposure.

Click to expand...

Exactly. So, in the case of the 300D, I've chosen (well, the camera has chosen) evaluative for me (assume I'm in Av mode). THEN, the camera would decide to change modes on me when I decided to use the exposure lock on the * button.

Peter Phan said:

In
the above example, if the evaluative metering gives you a certain
shutter speed, and a partial metering gives you a significantly
different shutter speed, one is wrong (or at least less right for
the way you want to render the image).

Click to expand...

That's right, one would be wrong. . . . so the question is, which exposure would I be getting? I'm following a subject in evaluative mode, and I want to lock exposure (but not focus), and I press the * button. Does the exposure get determined by the evaluative metering I just had active (with whatever I think appropriate exposure compensation is), or does it suddenly meter in partial mode (for which I'm not dialing in the appropriate exposure compensation) ?

Peter Phan said:

For example, if you are
taking an evaluative meter reading of a runner wearing white, and
you "think my evaluative metering is correct", then a correctly
done partial meter reading should give you the exact SAME exposure.
In the example of a runner wearing white, a partial meter reading
off of his white jersey with +1.5 exposure compensation should give
the correct exposure, which should be the same as the evaluative
meter reading.

Click to expand...

Yes, assuming the evaluative didn't need any exposure compensation (we'll assume that for the sake of discussion). But I'm not IN partial mode until I decide to lock exposure, right? I guess I could dial in the exposure compensation I'm gonna need in partial mode, knowing that when I hit exposure lock it's gonna be in that mode. But then the exposure I'm seeing in the viewfinder is going to be the wrong exposure. I'll have to be thinking too much about the two different modes at the same time.

This assumes that the actual metering will get done in partial mode, which is the way I'm interpeting this.

Peter Phan said:

Again, I really think you should read up on metering technique,
particularly partial/spot metering technique. The issue isn't with
the 300D. It's with your methodology.

Click to expand...

My methodology works just fine. But not on the 300D.

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

Sorry, I misread what you said. I thought you had said that you press , and then half-press the shutter to lock EXPOSURE. You said FOCUS.

Back to that speed-reading class I go. LOL.

Frank B said:

Sorry if my post was confusing. I did not say you press the
shutter halfway to use partial metering. I said if you use AE Lock
(i.e. press the * button) the camera will use partial metering and
then when you half-press the shutter it will lock focus. If it is
like my 10D you can also half-press the shutter and it will lock
focus and exposure (using evaluative metering), but if you then
press the AE Lock button it will switch to partial (if selected on
the 10D) and lock that reading.

Click to expand...

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

Yes, it has them all. But they're not necessarily all accessible, depending on what other modes (Av, Tv, M, etc) you want to be using.

IOW, you can't independently set the one you want at will, without also choosing some other thing that you may or may not want at the same time.

afinch said:

The 300d has ALL the metering modes that the 10d has:
evaluative
partial
center weighted averaging

Click to expand...

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

DavidP said:

No, that doesn't really make sense. What would make more sense
(which is what somebody else below though -- incorrectly) would be
that the * button switches you to partial, so you can SEE the meter
reading in partial mode BEFORE locking it, and then you'd lock it
with the shutter button.

Obviously, this would preclude you from being able to exposure lock
on one thing, while focus-locking on another, though.

Click to expand...

I'm currently using an Olympus c3030 and one thing that does annoy me is that I cannot exposure lock and focus lock independently. Am I reading you correctly that this would be the same situation with the 300D? But the 10D I can do that?

Lonnit

so which camera would be the better one for the "idiot" who wants to be lazy and have everything done for them automatically and end up with a good shot?

Lonnit

You can make them independent. BUT, you have to be in Av, Tv, M, or P mode. That's Aperture Priority, Shutter Priority, Manual, and Program modes.

AND when you want to have the exposure-lock independent of the focus-lock (EL is on the * button, FL is on the half-shutter press), you will be forced into using partial metering mode.

If you want to be in evaluative metering mode (Av, Tv, and P) or center-weighted metering mode (M), then you have to lock exposure AND the focus by half-pressing the shutter.

The 10D gives you a lot more flexibility in these regards. You can be in any metering mode you want (in Av, Tv, M, and maybe P) while you also have independent focus-lock and exposure-lock.

Hopefully I've typed all that correctly. It gets a bit confusing. LOL.

lonnit said:

I'm currently using an Olympus c3030 and one thing that does annoy
me is that I cannot exposure lock and focus lock independently. Am
I reading you correctly that this would be the same situation with
the 300D? But the 10D I can do that?

Click to expand...

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

-AE Lock only applies to locking of the partial meter reading. There's no reason to lock in the exposure for an evaluative meter reading. If you're tracking a runner and you are using evuative metering, there's no need to lock in the exposure. Just shoot! Who in their right mind wants to lock the exposure just before taking it!

The reason you lock in a partial meter reading is that it is a very specific measurement from the central 9% of the viewfinder, and as you recompose that shot, it may no longer be in the central portion of the viewfinder. So you need the camera to hold that measurement as you recompose the shot. For example, let's say I want to take a shot with the runner positioned to the left side of the frame, but I also want to meter off of him specifically. I pan over until he's at the center of the frame, partial and AE lock on him, then reframe so that he's back at the left side of the frame again, then take the shot. That's why the -AE Lock applies to partial metering only.

An evaluative meter reading is used entirely differently. You're basically telling the camera, "Take a look at this whole scene. Evaluate it. Give me the appropriate exposure for this scene." Then take the shot.

That one's easy . . . the 1D/1Ds.

You'd have to be a PRO to use the 300D in sports mode and get good results, I agree. The 1D makes it a lot easier.

Don't blame me, I didn't make up the name "idiot modes" and assign them to the different modes.

The beauty of the 1D/1Ds is that you can set things up the way YOU want them . . . even if that seems weird to others. LOL.

It seems to me that the step down in functionality from the 1D to the 10D is a lot less than the step down in functinality from the 10D to the 300D.

lonnit said:

so which camera would be the better one for the "idiot" who wants
to be lazy and have everything done for them automatically and end
up with a good shot?

Lonnit

Click to expand...

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

It sounds like the 300D would give you a hernia.

'cause I sure don't.

Why, oh why can't they just give you complete control over metering and focusing in the 300D just like in the other digitals, D30, D60, 10D, and the pro cameras as well?? Maybe a hidden button combination that throws it ito a real manual mode with full control. Sorry, but I hate cameras which assume you are a "dummy".

Rich

DavidP said:

AND when you want to have the exposure-lock independent of the
focus-lock (EL is on the * button, FL is on the half-shutter
press), you will be forced into using partial metering mode.

If you want to be in evaluative metering mode (Av, Tv, and P) or
center-weighted metering mode (M), then you have to lock exposure
AND the focus by half-pressing the shutter.

The 10D gives you a lot more flexibility in these regards. You can
be in any metering mode you want (in Av, Tv, M, and maybe P) while
you also have independent focus-lock and exposure-lock.

Hopefully I've typed all that correctly. It gets a bit confusing.
LOL.

lonnit said:

I'm currently using an Olympus c3030 and one thing that does annoy
me is that I cannot exposure lock and focus lock independently. Am
I reading you correctly that this would be the same situation with
the 300D? But the 10D I can do that?

Click to expand...

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

Click to expand...

I do. Why? I would get used to how much exposure compensation I needed in various situations in evaluative mode (with the focus point ON the subject), and have that dialed in. I might then choose to recompose, while locking exposure. I'd want the exposure locked in evaluative.

If I "just shoot", I wouldn't get the framing I want.

It's just what you get used to. I got very good at knowing what exposure compensation I needed in evaluative for a lot of types of shots I was doing.

Since then, I have started using spot-metering more and more, in the same fashion. I find the partial meter to be much too big in most cases for my needs. So, I'd either want spot-metering (which neither the 10D or 300D has), or evaluative metering.

Peter Phan said:

-AE Lock only applies to locking of the partial meter reading.
There's no reason to lock in the exposure for an evaluative meter
reading. If you're tracking a runner and you are using evuative
metering, there's no need to lock in the exposure. Just shoot!
Who in their right mind wants to lock the exposure just before
taking it!

Click to expand...

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

Just too frustrating.

Rich

Peter Phan said:

It sounds like the 300D would give you a hernia.

Click to expand...

DavidP #28649 said:

The 10D gives you a lot more flexibility in these regards. You can
be in any metering mode you want (in Av, Tv, M, and maybe P) while
you also have independent focus-lock and exposure-lock.

Hopefully I've typed all that correctly. It gets a bit confusing.
LOL.

Click to expand...

Thanks. It sounds like I'm too ignorant to appreciate all the 10D has to offer - despite the fact that I'm totally in love with it! The 10D is a camera I can grow into as I learn more. The 300D makes me worry if I'll grow out of it once I start growing. I'm nervous about not spending enough. I was all ready to buy the 10D and was discussing lenses. The lenses were blowing my budget and someone suggested I consider the 300D and the price difference would cover my overspending on lenses. Now I'm worried if I'll be missing features I'd really like. OTOH $500 is alot of extra money to spend if I don't really need the features. I'm so concerned about making the wrong decision. I was totally ready to spend for the 10D, it was just a matter of finding one in stock. I'd waited 6mo already and DH just gave me the green light on it. This is such a difficult decision to make!

Thanks,
Lonnit