Why no shutter count limit on returns?

I got a refurb 810 direct from Nikon for $1895. Prices are not static.
I didn't say that they are static. I just provided a current example. . . But I have checked prices previously and the percentage of discount does remain relatively consistent within a narrow range.
I didnt say you said prices are static, I merely said that they arent as evidenced by me getting an 810 a full $1000 under retail. Refurb prices arent always the narrow window you describe, just sometimes. I imagine Nikons supply is highly variable and it pays to be in Nikons email list.

You are right, it makes no sense to buy a refrub D5 for only $200 savings. The refurb D750 is actually more than new right now with the sale going on, and the 610 is the same price as the 750 on new models. Timing is everything.
 
lightandaprayer wrote:
As far as I am concerned, a camera with that many shutter activations is used, not refurbished.
If an authorized repair shop replaces a car's engine, transmission, cooling system, brake pads, seats, and shocks but doesn't roll back the odometer, what is it?
 
lightandaprayer wrote:
As far as I am concerned, a camera with that many shutter activations is used, not refurbished.
If an authorized repair shop replaces a car's engine, transmission, cooling system, brake pads, seats, and shocks but doesn't roll back the odometer, what is it?
 
lightandaprayer wrote:
As far as I am concerned, a camera with that many shutter activations is used, not refurbished.
If an authorized repair shop replaces a car's engine, transmission, cooling system, brake pads, seats, and shocks but doesn't roll back the odometer, what is it?

--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video
Henry, I don't think that the automobile analogy applies in this case.
 
When I checked the Nikon refurb webpage, the first thing I noticed is limited information about what Nikon does to "refurbish" a camera or lens. When you click the ? icon next to the price, a pop-up window appears with this info:

Refurbished Nikon products are restored to factory specifications after thoroughly being tested. They are carefully inspected, cleaned and any defective parts are replaced using genuine Nikon parts.

Warranty information is not prominently displayed. You must scroll to the bottom of the webpage and click the Warranties link:

All refurbished cameras, lenses and accessories include a 90-day limited warranty against defects in material and workmanship. It offers the same coverage as the Nikon Digital Imaging Warranty, just for 90 days instead of one year.

Finally, the discounts aren't much. . .

For example, a refurbished D5 is $6300. A brand new D5 from B&H Photo is $6500. A D500 from Nikon: $1600 B&H: $1800

Thanks, but no thanks. . .

On the Apple refurbished webpage, Apple has this:

Before we put an Apple Certified Refurbished product up for sale, it undergoes a rigorous refurbishment process to make sure it’s up to Apple’s high standards. We back it with our standard one-year limited warranty. And you have the option of purchasing AppleCare to extend your coverage further.

Great... That reassures me that Apple is so confident about the quality of its refurbished products that it not only provides a full one-year warranty, its refurbs also qualify for an additional two-year extended AppleCare policy. That's a full 3 years. And the extended warranty can be purchased anytime within the first year of ownership.

But wait, there's more. . . Click the "refurbished products" link and you get an FAQ. Here is an excerpt:

Frequently Asked Questions:

(1) What are Apple Certified Refurbished Products?

Apple Certified Refurbished Products are pre-owned Apple products that undergo Apple's stringent refurbishment process prior to being offered for sale. While only some units are returned due to technical issues, every unit is evaluated to ensure it meets Apple's quality standards.

Each Apple Certified Refurbished Product:

undergoes full functionality testing and any defective modules identified in testing are replaced.

Apple Watch devices that require replacement parts are not included in the Apple Certified Refurbished Program.

is put through a thorough cleaning process and inspection.

is repackaged (including appropriate manuals, cables, new boxes).

includes either the Operating System originally shipped with the unit or, in some cases, a more recent version.

is placed into a Final QA inspection prior to being added to sellable refurbished stock.

Refurbishment procedures follow the same basic technical guidelines as Apple's Finished Goods testing procedures.

(2) What should I expect when I purchase an Apple Certified Refurbished Product?

Substantial savings

A fully functional unit with complete documentation

The assurance that the unit meets Apple's premiere quality standards, and that its defective components have been replaced by genuine Apple components


The discount on refurbished Apple products depends on a number of factors. The basic discount is 15% but I have seen discounts of 25% and (rarely) higher. (Discontinued models typically have higher discounts.)

Apple refurbs have an excellent reputation. In my personal experience and reading myriad forum comments, Apple refurbs arrive in "like-new" condition. If you don't like what you see, Apple refurbs can be returned within 14 days just like new products. Many Apple aficionados purchase only refurbished Macs.

From what I have read about Nikon refurbs and particularly refurbished items sold by third-party vendors, there are no compelling reasons to go for a refurb. I would buy new or used on eBay, CraigsList or a reputable vendor such as KEH. There are even a few forums that have very good reputations for buying photo gear. But I only buy where I have some buyer protection and I can use a credit card. I put CraigsList on my list because at least I have the opportunity to carefully check-out the item and seller. (I have sold cameras and computers on CL.)
I have a friend who works for Apple. he tells me that Re Furbished apple products are essentially new and the only parts not replaced are the case. Everything else is 100% new parts inside.

As for Nikon, I think some of the refurbished items are actually new "gray" imports that are transferred from other markets that my be overstocked. They are then re packaged and sold as refurbished. I picked up a lens from Nikon USA as a refurbished and it did not have (US) in the serial number, other copies of the same lens did have that prefix. I also purchased a D7200 from Adorama and the shutter count was 0. I would expect a refurb to have at least a few clicks on the shutter. Disclaimer: That was just theory and I have no proof.
 
I have a friend who works for Apple. he tells me that Re Furbished apple products are essentially new and the only parts not replaced are the case. Everything else is 100% new parts inside.

As for Nikon, I think some of the refurbished items are actually new "gray" imports that are transferred from other markets that my be overstocked. They are then re packaged and sold as refurbished. I picked up a lens from Nikon USA as a refurbished and it did not have (US) in the serial number, other copies of the same lens did have that prefix. I also purchased a D7200 from Adorama and the shutter count was 0. I would expect a refurb to have at least a few clicks on the shutter. Disclaimer: That was just theory and I have no proof.
A few clicks, No Problemo. Thousands: Muy Problemo!
 
Some time back I bought a refurbished D4 or D4S directly from Nikon that had only 5 or 6 clicks on it. Just today I got a D810 from BuyDig using the recent NikonRumors $200 discount and according to ShutterCounter and Camera Shutter Count it already has 71,701 clicks on it even though the camera's file naming was at DSC_0009. Of course I informed BuyDig within 30 minutes of the FedEx delivery and I'm waiting on a reply with a return/refund number.
The file renaming can be reset at any time and is not indicative of total shutter count.
 
Some time back I bought a refurbished D4 or D4S directly from Nikon that had only 5 or 6 clicks on it. Just today I got a D810 from BuyDig using the recent NikonRumors $200 discount and according to ShutterCounter and Camera Shutter Count it already has 71,701 clicks on it even though the camera's file naming was at DSC_0009. Of course I informed BuyDig within 30 minutes of the FedEx delivery and I'm waiting on a reply with a return/refund number.
The file renaming can be reset at any time and is not indicative of total shutter count.
Yep. I need to change my File Naming every 10,000 clicks. Start with 000. Than 001 and so on. Usually miss the change by a few. Why they just don't use the shutter count for file naming makes no sense to me. They could allow for some kind of preface before the shutter count for those that rename different projects. I'm guessing DSC_ is some kind of in house lingo.
 
Some time back I bought a refurbished D4 or D4S directly from Nikon that had only 5 or 6 clicks on it. Just today I got a D810 from BuyDig using the recent NikonRumors $200 discount and according to ShutterCounter and Camera Shutter Count it already has 71,701 clicks on it even though the camera's file naming was at DSC_0009. Of course I informed BuyDig within 30 minutes of the FedEx delivery and I'm waiting on a reply with a return/refund number.
The file renaming can be reset at any time and is not indicative of total shutter count.
Yep. I need to change my File Naming every 10,000 clicks. Start with 000. Than 001 and so on. Usually miss the change by a few. Why they just don't use the shutter count for file naming makes no sense to me. They could allow for some kind of preface before the shutter count for those that rename different projects. I'm guessing DSC_ is some kind of in house lingo.
 
Yep. I need to change my File Naming every 10,000 clicks. Start with 000. Than 001 and so on. Usually miss the change by a few. Why they just don't use the shutter count for file naming makes no sense to me. They could allow for some kind of preface before the shutter count for those that rename different projects. I'm guessing DSC_ is some kind of in house lingo.
You can change that prefix yourself in the DSLRs, but we're still limited for 3 letters. I usually change it to the camera itself (ie, D20 for my D200, 750 for the D750, and d4s for the d4s). That way if I inadvertently copy them to the same directory, the files won't overwrite each other (walked off that bridge once with my 2 J1s).
 
Some time back I bought a refurbished D4 or D4S directly from Nikon that had only 5 or 6 clicks on it. Just today I got a D810 from BuyDig using the recent NikonRumors $200 discount and according to ShutterCounter and Camera Shutter Count it already has 71,701 clicks on it even though the camera's file naming was at DSC_0009. Of course I informed BuyDig within 30 minutes of the FedEx delivery and I'm waiting on a reply with a return/refund number.
The file renaming can be reset at any time and is not indicative of total shutter count.
Yep. I need to change my File Naming every 10,000 clicks. Start with 000. Than 001 and so on. Usually miss the change by a few. Why they just don't use the shutter count for file naming makes no sense to me. They could allow for some kind of preface before the shutter count for those that rename different projects. I'm guessing DSC_ is some kind of in house lingo.
 
billslatteryjr wrote:Some time back I bought a refurbished D4 or D4S directly from Nikon that had only 5 or 6 clicks on it.
Which did you buy D4 or D4s? You forgot? :)

Just today I got a D810 from BuyDig using the recent NikonRumors $200 discount and according to ShutterCounter and Camera Shutter Count it already has 71,701 clicks on it even though the camera's file naming was at DSC_0009.
The DSC filename is resettable. It is not an indication of the accumulated shutter count.
Of course I informed BuyDig within 30 minutes of the FedEx delivery and I'm waiting on a reply with a return/refund number.
I buy used in eBay, never a problem. I just don't understand why "most" are nervous about buy used so they buy a "refurbished" with a 90 day warranty at a cost much higher than buying an used camera. If I buy using my CC, I do have recourse if a problem arised buying used, but problems have never materialized.
 
billslatteryjr wrote:Some time back I bought a refurbished D4 or D4S directly from Nikon that had only 5 or 6 clicks on it.
Which did you buy D4 or D4s? You forgot? :)
Just today I got a D810 from BuyDig using the recent NikonRumors $200 discount and according to ShutterCounter and Camera Shutter Count it already has 71,701 clicks on it even though the camera's file naming was at DSC_0009.
The DSC filename is resettable. It is not an indication of the accumulated shutter count.
Of course I informed BuyDig within 30 minutes of the FedEx delivery and I'm waiting on a reply with a return/refund number.
I buy used in eBay, never a problem. I just don't understand why "most" are nervous about buy used so they buy a "refurbished" with a 90 day warranty at a cost much higher than buying an used camera. If I buy using my CC, I do have recourse if a problem arised buying used, but problems have never materialized.
I've had both. Don't remember which one I got refurbished anymore.

Hard to find a lightly used D810 for under $2000. Sold mine with 60,000 on it to a friend for $1850 back at the beginning of the year when I thought the D820 was only a few months away. Figured a low shutter count refurb D810 for $2050 was a decent deal. Now I'll just wait on the D820.
 
You make a great point and I would prefer that anyone selling refurbished cameras include the shutter count. But as for the argument that above a certain shutter count these cameras should be sold as "used" instead of "refurbished"...to me a "refurbished" product is by definition "used" (not "new"), but it's a used product that has been tested and is free from defects (including if necessary being repaired so that it is free from defects). I would not always read "refurbished" to mean "near new" or "as new". But it's great that Apple define it that way, and also great when refurbished cameras have a very low shutter count.

Or am I missing something?
 
The Wikipedia webpage Refurbishments (Electronics) has a good overview on the topic.

The most important takeaway is that the electronics industry has not come up with a firm, widely accepted definition of "refurbished." As we have discovered, a "refurbished" item can be "like new" with a full warranty or a well-used product with little or no warranty protection.

The bottom line: Buyer Be(a)ware. Carefully read the details and then decide whether the discounted price is worth the risk. At least use a credit card, especially for eBay purchases. Credit cards generally give the buyer significantly more protection when a transaction turns sour. If you allow PayPal to transfer funds directly from a bank account, your options are limited compared to using a credit card. That's a major reason why PayPal makes it more difficult to use a credit card and prompts customers to use their bank account instead.
 
I don't understand. You got a discount because it's not new, and now you're mad that it's not new?
As far as I am concerned, a camera with that many shutter activations is used, not refurbished. You would be better off buying a lightly used camera on eBay where the buyer states the number of clicks. I have seen Nikon DSLRs with between 0-1100 clicks at very nice discounts. A D700 with that number of clicks costs around 1/3 of the original price. My mint D700 with less than 6000 clicks cost $875.

Nikon refurb prices are high for what you get. Apple refurbs are like new and come with a full one-year warranty. They even qualify for an extended AppleCare warranty, which extends warranty protection to 3 full years from the date of purchase.
From Merriam-Webster:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/refurbish
We are used to buying 'refurbs' which very often are almost new, maybe even just returned after being bought by accident. With 71,000 shutter clicks, that camera is nowhere near 'new' and IMO calling it 'refurb' is pretty euphemistic and optimistic.

I have little sympathy for people who buy a camera and cry because they see a fingerprint on it or there's 120 clicks... but when someone buys a 'refurb' that's 1/3 used up, what differentiates it from a 'used' camera? Nothing. It's used.
Just because you're "used" to getting them with a few clicks doesn't mean they are all that way. Refurbished is, by definition, used. There is no distinction except that "manufacturer refurbished" implies that a Nikon technician went through the camera to confirm that it's in good working order and meets all applicable specifications.

Nikon refurb prices are often bad, but can be great. I got a D7100 refurbished in 2015 for $499. It had about 500 clicks on it I think. I could sell it for that same price right now, two years later.

The underlying implication here is that because a shutter has a certain number of clicks, that defines a certain percentage of the camera's life. It doesn't. Many of these cameras go hundreds of thousands of actuations without a problem. My D600 has 155k clicks on it and takes beautiful pictures. Just use the tool and stop worrying about the odometer. You take better pictures looking at the viewfinder than you do looking at the exif.
 
I don't understand. You got a discount because it's not new, and now you're mad that it's not new?
As far as I am concerned, a camera with that many shutter activations is used, not refurbished. You would be better off buying a lightly used camera on eBay where the buyer states the number of clicks. I have seen Nikon DSLRs with between 0-1100 clicks at very nice discounts. A D700 with that number of clicks costs around 1/3 of the original price. My mint D700 with less than 6000 clicks cost $875.

Nikon refurb prices are high for what you get. Apple refurbs are like new and come with a full one-year warranty. They even qualify for an extended AppleCare warranty, which extends warranty protection to 3 full years from the date of purchase.
From Merriam-Webster:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/refurbish
We are used to buying 'refurbs' which very often are almost new, maybe even just returned after being bought by accident. With 71,000 shutter clicks, that camera is nowhere near 'new' and IMO calling it 'refurb' is pretty euphemistic and optimistic.

I have little sympathy for people who buy a camera and cry because they see a fingerprint on it or there's 120 clicks... but when someone buys a 'refurb' that's 1/3 used up, what differentiates it from a 'used' camera? Nothing. It's used.
Just because you're "used" to getting them with a few clicks doesn't mean they are all that way. Refurbished is, by definition, used. There is no distinction except that "manufacturer refurbished" implies that a Nikon technician went through the camera to confirm that it's in good working order and meets all applicable specifications.

Nikon refurb prices are often bad, but can be great. I got a D7100 refurbished in 2015 for $499. It had about 500 clicks on it I think. I could sell it for that same price right now, two years later.

The underlying implication here is that because a shutter has a certain number of clicks, that defines a certain percentage of the camera's life. It doesn't. Many of these cameras go hundreds of thousands of actuations without a problem. My D600 has 155k clicks on it and takes beautiful pictures. Just use the tool and stop worrying about the odometer. You take better pictures looking at the viewfinder than you do looking at the exif.
Easy to say "stop worrying about the odometer" but if you had a choice of paying the same price for a refurb with 500 clicks vs paying for one with 71k clicks on a 100k click rated shutter mechanism, which would YOU choose?
 
I don't understand. You got a discount because it's not new, and now you're mad that it's not new?
As far as I am concerned, a camera with that many shutter activations is used, not refurbished. You would be better off buying a lightly used camera on eBay where the buyer states the number of clicks. I have seen Nikon DSLRs with between 0-1100 clicks at very nice discounts. A D700 with that number of clicks costs around 1/3 of the original price. My mint D700 with less than 6000 clicks cost $875.

Nikon refurb prices are high for what you get. Apple refurbs are like new and come with a full one-year warranty. They even qualify for an extended AppleCare warranty, which extends warranty protection to 3 full years from the date of purchase.
From Merriam-Webster:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/refurbish
We are used to buying 'refurbs' which very often are almost new, maybe even just returned after being bought by accident. With 71,000 shutter clicks, that camera is nowhere near 'new' and IMO calling it 'refurb' is pretty euphemistic and optimistic.

I have little sympathy for people who buy a camera and cry because they see a fingerprint on it or there's 120 clicks... but when someone buys a 'refurb' that's 1/3 used up, what differentiates it from a 'used' camera? Nothing. It's used.
Just because you're "used" to getting them with a few clicks doesn't mean they are all that way. Refurbished is, by definition, used. There is no distinction except that "manufacturer refurbished" implies that a Nikon technician went through the camera to confirm that it's in good working order and meets all applicable specifications.

Nikon refurb prices are often bad, but can be great. I got a D7100 refurbished in 2015 for $499. It had about 500 clicks on it I think. I could sell it for that same price right now, two years later.

The underlying implication here is that because a shutter has a certain number of clicks, that defines a certain percentage of the camera's life. It doesn't. Many of these cameras go hundreds of thousands of actuations without a problem. My D600 has 155k clicks on it and takes beautiful pictures. Just use the tool and stop worrying about the odometer. You take better pictures looking at the viewfinder than you do looking at the exif.
Easy to say "stop worrying about the odometer" but if you had a choice of paying the same price for a refurb with 500 clicks vs paying for one with 71k clicks on a 100k click rated shutter mechanism, which would YOU choose?
If I wanted a guaranteed low number of clicks, I'd buy new. If I wanted a discount for a used camera that a Nikon technician inspected, then I'd take the discount and roll the dice. Refurbished doesn't guarantee a low level of use. It is a USED camera with a warranty.
 
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I don't understand. You got a discount because it's not new, and now you're mad that it's not new?
As far as I am concerned, a camera with that many shutter activations is used, not refurbished. You would be better off buying a lightly used camera on eBay where the buyer states the number of clicks. I have seen Nikon DSLRs with between 0-1100 clicks at very nice discounts. A D700 with that number of clicks costs around 1/3 of the original price. My mint D700 with less than 6000 clicks cost $875.

Nikon refurb prices are high for what you get. Apple refurbs are like new and come with a full one-year warranty. They even qualify for an extended AppleCare warranty, which extends warranty protection to 3 full years from the date of purchase.
There are exactly 2 distinctions between used and refurbished:

Refurb cameras are inspected/serviced by a Nikon technician

Refurb cameras come with a manufacturer warranty

If these aren't important, buy used. If they are, buy refurb. If low shutter count is a necessity, buying new is the only way to go. Returning a refurb as "defective" for shutter count is fraud.
 
The Wikipedia webpage Refurbishments (Electronics) has a good overview on the topic.

The most important takeaway is that the electronics industry has not come up with a firm, widely accepted definition of "refurbished." As we have discovered, a "refurbished" item can be "like new" with a full warranty or a well-used product with little or no warranty protection.

The bottom line: Buyer Be(a)ware. Carefully read the details and then decide whether the discounted price is worth the risk. At least use a credit card, especially for eBay purchases. Credit cards generally give the buyer significantly more protection when a transaction turns sour. If you allow PayPal to transfer funds directly from a bank account, your options are limited compared to using a credit card. That's a major reason why PayPal makes it more difficult to use a credit card and prompts customers to use their bank account instead.
The definition is simple. A used camera hasn't been serviced by a manufacturer technician and doesn't come with a warranty. Refurb does. Why are you guys having so much trouble with this? Refurb does not come with an odometer guarantee.
 

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