My buddies don't pop in the snow

Your ISO should always be as low as it will go outdoors in the daytime. Selectively post-processing just your subjects can make a big difference (and can also remove sensor dust):







--
Digital Camera and Adobe Photoshop user since 1999.
Adobe Lightroom is my adult coloring book.

geo logic said:

Hello everybody,

I really love skiing. I also really love taking pictures of my friends skiing. Unfortunately, they don't pop like I want them to. I shoot in raw, but when my camera says the exposure is proper, the people usually come out super dark against the white snow. I've tried over-exposing a bit, but I'm not happy with the results. I've also tried lowering the ISO as low as it'll go (100) but again, I'm not happy with the results. Here's an example. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. Thanks!

P.S. ( I realize the composition leaves a lot to be desired, but this is the best I came up with yesterday). Thanks again!

Click to expand...

Good Morning,

I'm on the east coast USA and I'm up at 330 in the morning and my eyes and brain come up with.. "My buddies don't poop in the snow". So you got my attention.. now I feel obligated to respond.

Keep in mind that my responses are generalizations and suggestions. Frequently there are many ways to get from point a to b. I'll be an early responder to your query and many others will likely follow.

RAW is great but SOOC (straight out of camera) RAW is a bit flat and unexciting because you've made the decision not to have the camera juice up your picture and spit out a jpeg that has contrast, sharpening and saturation pre applied. A RAW image is like taking a high quality steak out of the refrigerator. You know it's good, but it is going to need some spice and time on the grill.

Snow: The camera's light meter sees all this white and says.. I'm going to do my job and spit out the reading to turn what I see into the exposure I'm made to give. And it is now showing the snow as underexposed grey and the dark areas of the image area now really dark. (If your Buds where dressed in white on a black background and you took the picture as the camera tells you they would be overexposed)

In general.. when I shoot on a sunny day in snow... I shoot about 1 to 2 stops over (exposure compensation) and lean more toward the 2 stops. This is normal and required.

Check your metering mode. Make sure you are on something other than "spot". (unless you know exactly what to do with spot mode and how to use it effectively) I tend to stick to evaluative but others might have chest pain because it isn't the mode they use and swear by.

The exposure of your friends is complicated because they are backlit.. i.e., the front of them we are seeing is mostly in shade.

ISO 100 on a sunny day is perfect.

You took the shot at f22. Was that intentional? Fine if it was. Someone is going to chime in and tell you about the evils of diffraction. That is not your problem here.

Here is something to read about diffraction that puts it in perspective:


Shooting at f 22 does some cool things like show sensor dust esp. in the sky. On the right hand side you are some that is noticeable. Easily fixed in post processing and fixed on your camera if desired.

So... you want your buds to pop. The best way to do that is using the light to the best possible advantage when taking the picture... ooops.. (sometimes it is nice to have faces in shade so the subjects aren't squinting and to avoid harsh shadows but for what you want they would have been better getting the sun on their faces and fronts.)

What are you using for post processing? I use Lightroom and PS and I'll use general terms.

I would bring up the shadows even more. Maybe paint some exposure on the dark clothing to bring out detail. I would crank up the clarity to at least 60. Adjust contrast to taste. Add vibrance and saturation. Sharpen. Adjust my white point and black point.

There you go.

Feel free to PM me if you want specific help.

--
My Flickr Page

SoCalWill said:

Your ISO should always be as low as it will go outdoors in the daytime. Selectively post-processing just your subjects can make a big difference (and can also remove sensor dust):



--
Digital Camera and Adobe Photoshop user since 1999.
Adobe Lightroom is my adult coloring book.

Click to expand...

I agree with this, removing the sensor dust truly does help

ESfishdoc said:

geo logic said:

Hello everybody,

I really love skiing. I also really love taking pictures of my friends skiing. Unfortunately, they don't pop like I want them to. I shoot in raw, but when my camera says the exposure is proper, the people usually come out super dark against the white snow. I've tried over-exposing a bit, but I'm not happy with the results. I've also tried lowering the ISO as low as it'll go (100) but again, I'm not happy with the results. Here's an example. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. Thanks!

P.S. ( I realize the composition leaves a lot to be desired, but this is the best I came up with yesterday). Thanks again!

Click to expand...

Good Morning,

I'm on the east coast USA and I'm up at 330 in the morning and my eyes and brain come up with.. "My buddies don't poop in the snow". So you got my attention.. now I feel obligated to respond.

Keep in mind that my responses are generalizations and suggestions. Frequently there are many ways to get from point a to b. I'll be an early responder to your query and many others will likely follow.

RAW is great but SOOC (straight out of camera) RAW is a bit flat and unexciting because you've made the decision not to have the camera juice up your picture and spit out a jpeg that has contrast, sharpening and saturation pre applied. A RAW image is like taking a high quality steak out of the refrigerator. You know it's good, but it is going to need some spice and time on the grill.

Snow: The camera's light meter sees all this white and says.. I'm going to do my job and spit out the reading to turn what I see into the exposure I'm made to give. And it is now showing the snow as underexposed grey and the dark areas of the image area now really dark. (If your Buds where dressed in white on a black background and you took the picture as the camera tells you they would be overexposed)

In general.. when I shoot on a sunny day in snow... I shoot about 1 to 2 stops over (exposure compensation) and lean more toward the 2 stops. This is normal and required.

Check your metering mode. Make sure you are on something other than "spot". (unless you know exactly what to do with spot mode and how to use it effectively) I tend to stick to evaluative but others might have chest pain because it isn't the mode they use and swear by.

The exposure of your friends is complicated because they are backlit.. i.e., the front of them we are seeing is mostly in shade.

ISO 100 on a sunny day is perfect.

You took the shot at f22. Was that intentional? Fine if it was. Someone is going to chime in and tell you about the evils of diffraction. That is not your problem here.

Here is something to read about diffraction that puts it in perspective:

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/03/overcoming-my-fentekaphobia/

Shooting at f 22 does some cool things like show sensor dust esp. in the sky. On the right hand side you are some that is noticeable. Easily fixed in post processing and fixed on your camera if desired.

So... you want your buds to pop. The best way to do that is using the light to the best possible advantage when taking the picture... ooops.. (sometimes it is nice to have faces in shade so the subjects aren't squinting and to avoid harsh shadows but for what you want they would have been better getting the sun on their faces and fronts.)

What are you using for post processing? I use Lightroom and PS and I'll use general terms.

I would bring up the shadows even more. Maybe paint some exposure on the dark clothing to bring out detail. I would crank up the clarity to at least 60. Adjust contrast to taste. Add vibrance and saturation. Sharpen. Adjust my white point and black point.

There you go.

Feel free to PM me if you want specific help.

--
http://esfishdoc.smugmug.com/
My Flickr Page
http://www.flickr.com/photos/33755787@N03/

Click to expand...

--
Albert

geo logic said:

Hello everybody,

I really love skiing. I also really love taking pictures of my friends skiing. Unfortunately, they don't pop like I want them to. I shoot in raw, but when my camera says the exposure is proper, the people usually come out super dark against the white snow. I've tried over-exposing a bit, but I'm not happy with the results. I've also tried lowering the ISO as low as it'll go (100) but again, I'm not happy with the results. Here's an example. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. Thanks!

P.S. ( I realize the composition leaves a lot to be desired, but this is the best I came up with yesterday). Thanks again!

Click to expand...

I agree with the previous posters regarding the metering issues.

I also notice that your shutter speed of 1/100th for this shot, is rather slow, possibly leading to motion blur even at walking pace.

Increasing the speed say to 1/250th or more would insure against this possibility and also bring the aperture setting down by two or three stops , making diffraction less of an issue..

geo logic said:

Hello everybody,

I really love skiing. I also really love taking pictures of my friends skiing. Unfortunately, they don't pop like I want them to. I shoot in raw, but when my camera says the exposure is proper, the people usually come out super dark against the white snow. I've tried over-exposing a bit, but I'm not happy with the results. I've also tried lowering the ISO as low as it'll go (100) but again, I'm not happy with the results. Here's an example. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. Thanks!

P.S. ( I realize the composition leaves a lot to be desired, but this is the best I came up with yesterday). Thanks again!

Click to expand...

Agree with previous comments, especially about using f/22. Such a high f/stop on a crop sensor will lead to diffraction as well as show off any sensor dust. At 18mm on your camera, f/11 would have been fine and would have let you use a shutter speed around 1/400.

geo logic said:

Hello everybody,

I really love skiing. I also really love taking pictures of my friends skiing. Unfortunately, they don't pop like I want them to. I shoot in raw, but when my camera says the exposure is proper, the people usually come out super dark against the white snow. I've tried over-exposing a bit, but I'm not happy with the results. I've also tried lowering the ISO as low as it'll go (100) but again, I'm not happy with the results. Here's an example. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. Thanks!

P.S. ( I realize the composition leaves a lot to be desired, but this is the best I came up with yesterday). Thanks again!

Click to expand...

I think we're overlooking the fundamental question. Comments made re diffraction, ISO, dust removal, etc are correct (although why the ISO comment when the shot was taken at ISO 100?)

Metering for snow can be tough. DSLR's tend to meter for middle gray - that is, when in evaluative or matrix metering, the camera will tend to expose for some level of middle gray, trying to avoid clipping highlights or losing shadow detail. A significant majority of the scene is highlight based - snow and sky - that's the spike in the histogram below. Clothing worn by your buds is dark and that detail coupled with the tree shadows are at the far left of the histogram.



Presumably, your primary interest is capturing your friends. Exposure needs to be correct for their faces - but what the camera is trying to do is expose the overall scene (assuming you're in evaluative metering mode). To prevent clipping the snow and sky, it pushes exposure down, probably somewhere around 1 stop.

Here are a couple of suggestions that may help.

Expose for your subject - override the camera trying to expose for the overall scene by applying positive exposure compensation. That will brighten faces. Yes it will most likely clip certain sections of the bright snow and it will definitely clip the blue channel for the sky, but the dynamic range of this scene is probably wider than the sensor capability to capture everything - you're going to have to pick your battle here.

You could shoot spot meter and then expose for a particular portion of the scene (a face), but I suspect doing so when people are always moving is likely not going to work. I think you'll be better off shooting in evaluative and know that some positive exposure compensation should be applied. Please keep in mind that snow and sky like your shot is an extreme case - I'm not suggesting every shot needs this kind of workaround. (and as an aside, this propensity to maintain middle gray exposure level is probably more pronounced in consumer DSLR's - the T3i is likely trying harder to maintain middle gray than say a 5D)

Some adjustment will be needed in post processing - hard to avoid given the dynamic range of the scene. This can be as simple as raising the mid-tones all the way to whatever one can do in PS. I use LR and I applied a modest bump in shadows and a bit of positive exposure painting with the adjustment brush on faces. I cropped the image very slightly to make your subjects a bit larger while keeping the grand landscape (they were getting lost otherwise)

Shoot RAW. For a scene like this, there is going to very little you'll be able to do in post processing when working with jpeg output. Not a criticism by any stretch, but the T3i and kit 18-55 lens is going to be a limiting factor at some level. That said, replacing with the current state of the crop sensor art is not going to alter the dynamic range challenge.....

Finally, it's a beautiful and grand landscape - pretty tough for your buds to compete against that..... Looks like awesome skiing!

Here's the image with the slight adjustments described above. There are some sensor dust spots in the sky - may want to clean your sensor....... Or, time might be right to get that T6i or 80D or.....

As others have said, this is a difficult subject because of the high dynamic range between the very bright snow and sky and the dark figures, particularly with the sun behind them so they are in shadow.

However, you can compensate quite a lot in processing the raw image to a jpeg. How have you done that?

Modern processors such as Lightroom have very good controls for compensating for high dynamic range. Have you tried moving the Highlights slider to -100 and the Shadows slider to +100? That is probably more than is needed, but try it and see!

If the result is too flat, you can use the Clarity slider to give it some more bite (technically Clarity increases the local contrast without changing the global contrast).

These are just suggestions, but if you have Lightroom (or ACR in Photoshop), they are worth trying if you haven't already done so.

geo logic said:

Hello everybody,

I really love skiing. I also really love taking pictures of my friends skiing. Unfortunately, they don't pop like I want them to. I shoot in raw, but when my camera says the exposure is proper, the people usually come out super dark against the white snow. I've tried over-exposing a bit, but I'm not happy with the results. I've also tried lowering the ISO as low as it'll go (100) but again, I'm not happy with the results. Here's an example. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. Thanks!

P.S. ( I realize the composition leaves a lot to be desired, but this is the best I came up with yesterday). Thanks again!

Click to expand...

Snow scenes are very hard for camera and photographer, because they are way outside the normal brightness range. Snow looks 'white' but actually it is much brighter than a normal 'white', Each of those snow crystals can directly reflect back sunlight, effectively like a miniature lamp in the scene. The problem is that if you display those images with the whiter than white as 'white' then all the other tones get compressed. What you need to do is manipulate the tone curve to compress the 'whites' while still leaving some detail, and also to lift the darker tones, leaving the blacks black. I've done this to your photo here:





You've actually done pretty well with the exposure of this image, it just needed a bit more work after. I've done a couple of extra things as well applied the tone curve. First, I've applied some pretty serious NR to the dark parts of the image only. This is because your Canon produces a lot of shadow noise and when the dark tones get lifted, it becomes rather apparent. Also, I've applied some sharpening, probably too much in fact, but it does give a high contrast image a bit more punch.

This would all have been even better with a raw file to work on. The JPEG loses information, which means that this kind of operation can result in some rather weird colours.



--
Tinkety tonk old fruit, & down with the Nazis!
Bob

geo logic said:

Hello everybody,

I really love skiing. I also really love taking pictures of my friends skiing. Unfortunately, they don't pop like I want them to. I shoot in raw, but when my camera says the exposure is proper, the people usually come out super dark against the white snow. I've tried over-exposing a bit, but I'm not happy with the results. I've also tried lowering the ISO as low as it'll go (100) but again, I'm not happy with the results. Here's an example. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. Thanks!

P.S. ( I realize the composition leaves a lot to be desired, but this is the best I came up with yesterday). Thanks again!

Click to expand...

If I may, I think you need to decide if you want a photo of scenery with your friends in it or photo of your friends with scenery. Your photo looks more like the former but you seem to have wanted latter.

Typically, the subject should be a larger part of the image, otherwise, it would not "pop".

Just to illustrate my point -

geo logic said:

Hello everybody,

I really love skiing. I also really love taking pictures of my friends skiing. Unfortunately, they don't pop like I want them to. I shoot in raw, but when my camera says the exposure is proper, the people usually come out super dark against the white snow. I've tried over-exposing a bit, but I'm not happy with the results. I've also tried lowering the ISO as low as it'll go (100) but again, I'm not happy with the results. Here's an example. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. Thanks!

P.S. ( I realize the composition leaves a lot to be desired, but this is the best I came up with yesterday). Thanks again!

Click to expand...

This is a perfect example of what "dynamic range" means when you look up stats. The scene has some very bright areas and some relatively dark areas.

To correct for this, you have to use the lowest possible ISO and then correct by boosting shadows. Shooting in RAW will give you much more ability to do this cleanly than JPEG.

Also, a good circular polarizer on the lens may help--it will reduce the glare and effectively brightness of the snow much more than the shadows--same thing that many sunglasses do. Flash: On.

And finally, try using a good hood or covering the front element from the sun--you've got some glare from the sun & the snow that will make it harder to maintain good contrast in the shadows. Also, try using an f-number smaller than F/22--the diffraction can also make it harder to pull up details in general, including from shadows.

Here's a quick example of one way to adjust the image--a bigger push than I'd normally do but just so you can get the idea:

There is no correct exposure possible for that particular scene. You can have correct exposure of the snow or the guys, but not both. No camera has that kind of dynamic range.

You can improve it with Photoshop or Lightroom.

I would use spot metering, but alas the T3 doesn't have that option...

To paraphrase a former US President: it's about the lighting stupid. (I am emphatically not calling you stupid, just pointing out the obvious something we all have to keep in mind.)

it's not about the histogram, or the aperture, and white creative processing (basic dodging and burning) of your raw file might make it better, really the problem of the lighting ratio. You have relatively dark subjects (your friends) against a large brigjt background. If you want them to visually come forward in your images they need to be a little more brightly lit to compete with their (mostly) bright surroundings.

composing more catefull ycan help as well. If the primary subject of the photograph is "these are my friends" and the modifier is "on this really great trip" get closer to the people so they dominate the composition. If tbe subject of the photograph is the location and the subordinate subject is "and we were there" then your photograph works fine for that.

Both ways of thinking about how to shoot a trip to such a beautiful place are more than metely valid and in fact taking both approaches along with shooting close up details (hands, faces, gear, an danything that expresses both the small beauties and the experiences of exploring the world and testing your limits while dealing with being really cold) will give you the material to build a more rewarding photo essay about your trip.

But only if you are so inclined of course.

Bob said:

There is no correct exposure possible for that particular scene. You can have correct exposure of the snow or the guys, but not both. No camera has that kind of dynamic range.

Click to expand...

Basically, what Bob says just about sums it up. Personally, I think you've managed to get the best out of the scene. (with one or two caveats*)

Bob said:

You can improve it with Photoshop or Lightroom.

Click to expand...

I'd assume, from the noise present, that shadows have already been lifted.

The shadows are there, if it's not stating the obvious, because you have the sun behind your subjects and the light on their faces is only reflected rather than direct.

*This shot could have been improved if you had shot RAW as that would have left you a little more latitude for pushing the shadows.

It could also have been improved if you'd shot at a larger aperture. Lenses do not perform so well at the extreme apertures (ie fully open or closed).

Finally (forementioned) clean up those dust spots.

Bob said:

There is no correct exposure possible for that particular scene.

Click to expand...

What do you mean by 'correct exposure'? How come this scene doesn't have one?

Bob said:

You can have correct exposure of the snow or the guys, but not both.

Click to expand...

Once again, what do you mean by 'correct exposure'?

Bob said:

No camera has that kind of dynamic range.

Click to expand...

That's mot true, his camera has the range to capture that and it has. Its major issue is nasty patterned shadow noise (somewhat typical of older Canons)

Bob said:

You can improve it with Photoshop or Lightroom.

Click to expand...

His best bet is to expose to capture all the luminance range, which he pretty much has, the exposure that he's selected isn't bad at all. Then the key is processing so as not to crunch up the shadows or clip the brighter bits of the snow, then applying a tone curve to brighten it all up.

Much has been said, I only have a little to add. My first thought was about shooting into the sun just made it harder to get that pop.

I found a sample of some guys dressed in dull/dark skiing garb to illustrate what a big difference it can make:


Skiing buds with sun behind them. Not much pop here.


Skiing buds with sun slightly in front and camera left. Much nicer pop. Interesting to note that this photo is from a company that makes prosthetics designed for athletic activities.

--
Lance H

"Correct" exposure means the pixels average out to 50% grey. It's a technical definition, not a subjective one. This scene has a "correct exposure" in terms of the light meter, but not in terms of producing the desired result for you because there are two subjects: white snow and dark people. If you get the snow right, people will be too dark. If you get the people right, the snow will blow out. The only way to save this photo is to expose it as hot as possible without clipping, then try to pull up the darks using software. Or, use a reflector outside to get more light on the fellas.

Note that 50% grey is just the starting point. Based on the particular scene, the photographer may need to compensate. That's why cameras have an exposure compensation button (i.e. -3, -2, -1, 0 , +1, +2, +3). Many cameras have automatic scene recognition, so that it knows not to turn snow into 50% grey.

Having said all that, I thought your original photo was not to bad as is. If you want your guys to pop, have them wear red outfits next time. That sounds flippant, but I'm being serious. That's what pro photographers do This is why pro photographers tell everyone to wear the same color tones for a group family reunion photo, for example.

geo logic said:

Hello everybody,

I really love skiing. I also really love taking pictures of my friends skiing. Unfortunately, they don't pop like I want them to. I shoot in raw, but when my camera says the exposure is proper, the people usually come out super dark against the white snow. I've tried over-exposing a bit, but I'm not happy with the results. I've also tried lowering the ISO as low as it'll go (100) but again, I'm not happy with the results. Here's an example. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. Thanks!

P.S. ( I realize the composition leaves a lot to be desired, but this is the best I came up with yesterday). Thanks again!

Click to expand...

To pull this shot off the way you wanted it you would need a large strobe and a circular polarizer. Some reflectors could also do it but with the CP.

Maybe ever consider adding an ND.

Try to line up your shots better with the light you have.

F22 is a no-no.





--
My greatest fear is that I die and my wife sells off my lenses based on the prices I told her I paid for them.
My second greatest fear is that a Sony lens will actually live up to the hype and BS that SAR and others vomit up every few weeks.