Reading mode: Light Dark

Forget about the price... but the weight?

Go to last post
pannumon said:
Tom Caldwell said:
I am even wondering if the tricky (apparently heavy) reduced shutter shock technology will make its way to the GM series and make it heavier also.
Click to expand...
I think the common belief is that the GM series is abandoned.
Click to expand...
Maybe it has, maybe it hasn't. We have had these rumours several times already and whenever fresh stocks have appeared the rumour just changes gear and becomes "they are obviously selling slowly and therefore the line will no longer continue". If the GM series has been abandoned (as it might have) then I at least have taken the precaution of acquiring a few. No more upgrade needs if there is never going to be another M4/3 body this small and competent. I will sail away into the sunset waiting for the GM series to be awarded "classic" status.
pannumon said:
However, AFAIK the new GX850 has similar hybrid shutter as GM5, and the body weighs 269g (0.59 lb / 9.49 oz; without battery and SD card).
Click to expand...
GX850? Is this just another name for the GF9? Trying to follow the flood of alias names used by Panasonic for the same products is becoming quite an art form.

In any case the idea of the new shutter type being used in a prospective GM series was just a throw-away line. The hybrid shutter in the GM/GF bodies was a specially developed shutter specifically for these tiny bodies and was apparently not good enough for many. But I have no problem with the silent ultra high speed shockless electronic version.
pannumon said:
I don't think the electromagnetic shutter itself is very heavy, but in order to maximally dampen the shutter shock and audible noise, it must be tied to a larger mass (GX85 vs. G85).
Click to expand...
That makes good sense - thank you for the observation. I only had a wild guess at the reason for the extra weight which was not trivial. In the case of the GX85 the body was no larger than the GX7 but the increase in weight must have come from some component of substantial mass. Maybe going from 3-way IBIS to 5-way IBIS contributed, maybe it was the new shutter as I guessed. But it could have also been a heavier frame inside used as a heat sink or dampening mass as you have suggested.
pannumon said:
Correct if I am wrong, but GX85 still actually suffers from shutter shock, doesn't it (with normal mechanical shutter)?
Click to expand...
Don't know, don't care. Shutter shock has not bothered me and what have been write off images probably were shutter shock on camera that I have owned (I don't own a GX85) but I simply try again (when I can) that a retry can fix it says more about my technique than is a camera failing. Recently I have noticed that setting half press release to "on" has improved my long lens chances. This has more to do with finger press on shutter jerk than shutter shock in my book though. And I always thought that I had overcome my shutter press jitter - but I live and learn.

--
Tom Caldwell
 
Last edited:
ZodiacPhoto said:
highwave said:
I guess there is this mentality that m43 Pro gear should be big, heavy, and expensive to justify its "pro" rating.
Click to expand...
A couple of years ago I attended a wedding in NYC.

The photographer was using two huge black Nikon cameras, with a 24-70 f/2.8 and 70-200 f/2.8 attached. He was looking very "pro" all right.

But... something was strange about the big black Nikon bodies: the LCD on the back was tiny. Closer look: a 10+ years old, 5MP Nikon D1X.

I saw the photos from that wedding, they were quite good.

The biggest size they ordered for printing was 8x10".

Who needs more that 5MP for that?
Click to expand...
My friend is a pro photographer and he use to use the E-M1 for his personal use and upgraded that to a Sony A7Rii.

For his pro use, its all giant black Canons with occasional super gigantic white lenses. I asked him why and he said clients who are paying you actually rate your work from how much sweat you're showing on your shirt from carrying heavy camera equipment rather than any perceived better IQ coming from it.
 
Tom Caldwell said:
pannumon said:
Tom Caldwell said:
I am even wondering if the tricky (apparently heavy) reduced shutter shock technology will make its way to the GM series and make it heavier also.
Click to expand...
I think the common belief is that the GM series is abandoned.
Click to expand...
Maybe it has, maybe it hasn't. We have had these rumours several times already and whenever fresh stocks have appeared the rumour just changes gear and becomes "they are obviously selling slowly and therefore the line will no longer continue". If the GM series has been abandoned (as it might have) then I at least have taken the precaution of acquiring a few. No more upgrade needs if there is never going to be another M4/3 body this small and competent. I will sail away into the sunset waiting for the GM series to be awarded "classic" status.
Tom Caldwell said:
However, AFAIK the new GX850 has similar hybrid shutter as GM5, and the body weighs 269g (0.59 lb / 9.49 oz; without battery and SD card).
Click to expand...
GX850? Is this just another name for the GF9? Trying to follow the flood of alias names used by Panasonic for the same products is becoming quite an art form.

In any case the idea of the new shutter type being used in a prospective GM series was just a throw-away line. The hybrid shutter in the GM/GF bodies was a specially developed shutter specifically for these tiny bodies and was apparently not good enough for many. But I have no problem with the silent ultra high speed shockless electronic version.
Tom Caldwell said:
I don't think the electromagnetic shutter itself is very heavy, but in order to maximally dampen the shutter shock and audible noise, it must be tied to a larger mass (GX85 vs. G85).
Click to expand...
That makes good sense - thank you for the observation. I only had a wild guess at the reason for the extra weight which was not trivial. In the case of the GX85 the body was no larger than the GX7 but the increase in weight must have come from some component of substantial mass. Maybe going from 3-way IBIS to 5-way IBIS contributed, maybe it was the new shutter as I guessed. But it could have also been a heavier frame inside used as a heat sink or dampening mass as you have suggested.
Click to expand...
Pany told us that due to avoidance of over heating problem of its new free floating sensor, and to stabilize video, a heavy heatsink is so attached to the sensor. So from GX85 (should be similar to G85 that I don't know), when the camera is power off (no electro-magnetic force to hold the sensor in place) and when we shake the camera, we can feel a heavy weighted object moving around inside the camera...

It is the majority of weight increased for GX85 despite a plastic case been used, a marginally smaller body as well as a fixed evf, but still slightly heavier than GX7.
Tom Caldwell said:
Tom Caldwell said:
Correct if I am wrong, but GX85 still actually suffers from shutter shock, doesn't it (with normal mechanical shutter)?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
As claimed by Pany, and find to be true, shutter shock (if as serious as most people concerned) can largely be avoided by the new shutter design. Some user warranted it could completely free but according to my experience on my copy of GX85, shutter shock of m-shutter is under reasonably good control but not 100% free yet. G85's EFCS might be more bulletproof.
Tom Caldwell said:
Don't know, don't care. Shutter shock has not bothered me and what have been write off images probably were shutter shock on camera that I have owned (I don't own a GX85) but I simply try again (when I can) that a retry can fix it says more about my technique than is a camera failing. Recently I have noticed that setting half press release to "on" has improved my long lens chances. This has more to do with finger press on shutter jerk than shutter shock in my book though. And I always thought that I had overcome my shutter press jitter - but I live and learn.
Click to expand...
 
Tom Caldwell said:
pannumon said:
Tom Caldwell said:
I am even wondering if the tricky (apparently heavy) reduced shutter shock technology will make its way to the GM series and make it heavier also.
Click to expand...
I think the common belief is that the GM series is abandoned.
Click to expand...
Maybe it has, maybe it hasn't. We have had these rumours several times already and whenever fresh stocks have appeared the rumour just changes gear and becomes "they are obviously selling slowly and therefore the line will no longer continue". If the GM series has been abandoned (as it might have) then I at least have taken the precaution of acquiring a few. No more upgrade needs if there is never going to be another M4/3 body this small and competent. I will sail away into the sunset waiting for the GM series to be awarded "classic" status.
Tom Caldwell said:
However, AFAIK the new GX850 has similar hybrid shutter as GM5, and the body weighs 269g (0.59 lb / 9.49 oz; without battery and SD card).
Click to expand...
GX850? Is this just another name for the GF9? Trying to follow the flood of alias names used by Panasonic for the same products is becoming quite an art form.
Click to expand...
I think GM and GF lines are now combined into GX<xxx>-line. The GX850 seems not to be much worse than GM5 by any (also physical) measures.

The naming of Panasonic is pretty confusing, and I don't like it at all. To make things worse, I am also confused with EM10 mk I/II, EM5 mk I/II, EM1 mk I/II. In fact, there was a thread in this forum where only "mk II" was mentioned in the tpoic... EM-1, EM-50 and EM-100 -lines would be much easier to recognize. I hope Panasonic now settles down and will stay with GH<x>, G<xx>, GX<x>, GX<xx> and GX<xxx> series (although I really don't know....)

In Cinema5D interview (https://www.cinema5d.com/the-hardware-of-the-panasonic-gh5-an-interview-with-panasonics-m-uematsu/) , Mr. Uematsu tells that GH series cameras are consumer products. This leads to consumer naming. In this regard, I think Panasonic does not understand what their camera division is able to deliver.

Tom, perhaps we should have another thread about Panasonic branding, but I am unlikely going to start it.
Tom Caldwell said:
In any case the idea of the new shutter type being used in a prospective GM series was just a throw-away line. The hybrid shutter in the GM/GF bodies was a specially developed shutter specifically for these tiny bodies and was apparently not good enough for many. But I have no problem with the silent ultra high speed shockless electronic version.
Click to expand...
Interesting, thank you. It makes sense that smaller sensors benefit from 'lighter' shutters.
 
Early in the morning my hands can be pretty shaky especially after a lot of coffee. Do you think the added mass will help me get better shots?
 
parkgt said:
Early in the morning my hands can be pretty shaky especially after a lot of coffee. Do you think the added mass will help me get better shots?
Click to expand...
After a couple of dozen beer though, it will help with stability and get you decent shots.

Stay off the coffee, think BEER !! ...... hick !!

Danny.
 
Not sure why people don't get this, but here we go again:

recording 4K 4.2.2 10-bit requires a heavy amount of processing which leads to an enormous amount of heat that needs to be wicked away. The size of the camera is what it is so customers aren't left with a camera that is cool on paper, but melts in use (*COUGH* Sony).
 
ZodiacPhoto said:
725g (1.6 lb)!

It is 100g more than a Full-frame Sony A7S2 or A7R2 (625g / 1.38 lb), and almost as heavy as a FF DSLR - Nikon D750 - 750g / 1.65 lb.

Granted, FF lenses will be heavier, but still...
Click to expand...
It was a trade-off. Weigh a bit more, or use the same crappy plastic in the Nikon and the Sony.

--
"After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting."
-Spock
 
Last edited:
at least it will be reliable unlike other 4k vendors ,and with all the extra sensor output in video it must need cooling ,there is a lot going on in the camera over the gh4,gh3 dual card slots ,ibis ,even ,more button and controls everything has been improved ,spec wise ,but the weight is going to put it in dslr category so will not be for everyone i will avoid it and wait for a gx9 it will be lighter .

To be honest a lot buyers will be using it on rigs ,tripods and gimbals the video guys

well at least the lenses look light and compact the 12-60mm is very much in the light and portable .
 
Bhima78 said:
Not sure why people don't get this, but here we go again:

recording 4K 4.2.2 10-bit requires a heavy amount of processing which leads to an enormous amount of heat that needs to be wicked away. The size of the camera is what it is so customers aren't left with a camera that is cool on paper, but melts in use (*COUGH* Sony).
Click to expand...
Or Panasonic can put money into fabricating their ASIC chip (venus engine) using 14nm process, heat dissipation will be less of an issue.

It's not all doom & gloom though, people can look at it in a more positive light, Panasonic actually locks in your investment in brackets, cages, etc so that they wouldn't go to waste.
 
ZodiacPhoto said:
725g (1.6 lb)!

It is 100g more than a Full-frame Sony A7S2 or A7R2 (625g / 1.38 lb), and almost as heavy as a FF DSLR - Nikon D750 - 750g / 1.65 lb.

Granted, FF lenses will be heavier, but still...
Click to expand...
Well if one stops to think about it, it is only the sensor that can be smaller and lighter as all the electronics will weigh the same, well heavier in fact as m4/3 has lots of gubbins to move the ibis sensor.
 
ZodiacPhoto said:
725g (1.6 lb)!

It is 100g more than a Full-frame Sony A7S2 or A7R2 (625g / 1.38 lb), and almost as heavy as a FF DSLR - Nikon D750 - 750g / 1.65 lb.

Granted, FF lenses will be heavier, but still...
Click to expand...
Consider for moment that a (Micro)FourThirds sensor has exactly the same dimensions as a frame of 110 film, which by any description, was a subminiature format.

The size, bulk and weight of the high end Olympus and Panny bodies aren't attributable to the format, but to unsustainable corporate business models.

This shows what is possible:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1203955-REG/z_camera_e1cam3a701_e1_mini_4k_video.html
 
noflashplease said:
The size, bulk and weight of the high end Olympus and Panny bodies aren't attributable to the format, but to unsustainable corporate business models.

This shows what is possible:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1203955-REG/z_camera_e1cam3a701_e1_mini_4k_video.html
Click to expand...
It shows what is possible if you are willing to give up most of the features of the heavier bodies.

Seem like the Panny and Olympus business models are resulting in plenty of interest and sales.

Different tools for different jobs.
 
pannumon said:
Tom Caldwell said:
I am even wondering if the tricky (apparently heavy) reduced shutter shock technology will make its way to the GM series and make it heavier also.
Click to expand...
I think the common belief is that the GM series is abandoned. However, AFAIK the new GX850 has similar hybrid shutter as GM5, and the body weighs 269g (0.59 lb / 9.49 oz; without battery and SD card).
Click to expand...
The GX850 is a GM6/GF9 replacement. Stole the name of the enthusiast series, but the body is definitely GM/GF. Sad that Panny are so confused these days.
pannumon said:
I don't think the electromagnetic shutter itself is very heavy, but in order to maximally dampen the shutter shock and audible noise, it must be tied to a larger mass (GX85 vs. G85). Correct if I am wrong, but GX85 still actually suffers from shutter shock, doesn't it (with normal mechanical shutter)?
Click to expand...
GX85 does not have the so called normal mechanical shutter. It has the dual solenoid shutter, with about 90% reduction in shutter shock. In practice, I don't see shutter shock on this cam, but I see it all the time on the G7. Which is why I am selling the G7 for the G85.

I just ran a test for fun ... set shutter to 1/60 with the GX85/45-150 at max zoom (300mm equivalent.) Shoot a target with text on it at min focus distance... 3 shots held close to chest, 3 shots held with hands out from body. Result was 6 shots that looked perfectly sharp, with one of them being a hair less sharp at 100%. And I mean a hair ... I found i hard to decide if it was SS or change of focus target since it was on a slight angle.

Anyway, for practical purposes, SS is not an issue with the GX85. And since I can shoot at fast shutter speeds with this shutter, I would take it every day of the week over the GM1 shutter I used to use.
 
During writing the previous post I forgot that the IBIS itself causes a lot of thermal resistance. This resistance needs to be compensated with more efficient heat sinks. More efficient heat sinks means more mass. So while the IBIS-capability itself may not increase the weight practically at all (as I believe) the requirement for much larger heat dissipation system does.
 
ZodiacPhoto said:
725g (1.6 lb)!

It is 100g more than a Full-frame Sony A7S2 or A7R2 (625g / 1.38 lb), and almost as heavy as a FF DSLR - Nikon D750 - 750g / 1.65 lb.

Granted, FF lenses will be heavier, but still...
Click to expand...
725g? Not a problem. Many of us use battery grips on our existing cameras without an issue. My E-M1 plus a battery grip and without a lens comes in at 829g and I have been carrying it around pretty much all the time for the last couple of years without too much thought. Same with my GH3 with a battery grip. I am more concerned and happy about all the good things the GH5 can do.

Dale
 
pannumon said:
During writing the previous post I forgot that the IBIS itself causes a lot of thermal resistance. This resistance needs to be compensated with more efficient heat sinks. More efficient heat sinks means more mass. So while the IBIS-capability itself may not increase the weight practically at all (as I believe) the requirement for much larger heat dissipation system does.
Click to expand...
If the sensor is largely floating it's very difficult to get heat out of it as it's mostly coupled to air and there is no room for fins. Airflow helps. Failing that you just need a sensor that is low power.
 
Jon555 said:
Dr_Jon wrote:.

If the sensor is largely floating it's very difficult to get heat out of it as it's mostly coupled to air and there is no room for fins. Airflow helps. Failing that you just need a sensor that is low power.
Click to expand...
Exactly, so you can use radiation and convection only to cool down the sensor itself.

The processing board can be cooled by heat pipes connecting the ICs to the magnesium body of the camera.
 
ZodiacPhoto said:
highwave said:
I guess there is this mentality that m43 Pro gear should be big, heavy, and expensive to justify its "pro" rating.
Click to expand...
A couple of years ago I attended a wedding in NYC.

The photographer was using two huge black Nikon cameras, with a 24-70 f/2.8 and 70-200 f/2.8 attached. He was looking very "pro" all right.

But... something was strange about the big black Nikon bodies: the LCD on the back was tiny. Closer look: a 10+ years old, 5MP Nikon D1X.

I saw the photos from that wedding, they were quite good.

The biggest size they ordered for printing was 8x10".

Who needs more that 5MP for that?
Click to expand...
I have been using my 10 year old Pana FZ50 and Leica VLUX1 for weddings since I bought them. At ISO100 and flash, I have only had one complaint in all those years. And that was that I did not take enough pictures...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Keyboard shortcuts

f
Forum
m
My threads
Mobile site
About
Editorial content
Cameras & Lenses
Community
All content, design, and layout are Copyright © 1998–2025 Digital Photography Review All Rights Reserved.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
When you use DPReview links to buy products, the site may earn a commission.
©GPS Media - Guides, Products, Services.
Back
Top