Deciding which strobe system

Don89 said:

robertfel said:

Not a super extensive review, but they brought up some good points.

https://fstoppers.com/originals/profoto-b1-vs-godox-ad600-flash-photography-155679

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my Elinchrom strobes - some over 20 years old. No failures. No repairs, always work.

Someone find one this thread and update it in 2036 and let me know how that Godox is doing... I'll bet my Eli's will be working well. Betcha those Profotos will be going strong too.

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It's an interesting question as to what the best philosophy is. When technology is evolving, one might not want to keep the same gear for 20 years.

The Canon EOS D20 camera I bought 12 years ago still works as good as it did new. Technology has long passed it by, and I no longer shoot with it.

If you think that lighting technology won't change in the next 20 years, then a long term investment may be wise. If you are looking forwards to LED modeling lights that can double as video lights, ultra short flash durations, high speed sync compatible with future cameras, smarter remote systems, integrated metering, or other technologies, you may want to base your choice on a shorter product lifetime.

There is also the issue of cost vs reliability. Even the most reliable systems can fail. Knock a multi-thousand dollar light into a swimming pool, or the ocean, and it likely will stop working. Even without abuse, a reliable product can experience a failure.

Depending on your needs, it might be acceptable to keep a spare light around and swap it in if needed. If the spare light costs $2,000, you might want to skip the spare, and hope you don't see a failure. if the spare light costs $200, it might be worth having one around.

Assume you have 3 lights and you keep them for 15 years. With an expensive brand, you might have one failure, and you might be down to two lights for a few weeks while it is being repaired. With a cheap light, you might have 2 (or even three failures) over those 15 years. You swap in a spare light, and you are back up in 5 minutes. Send the failed light for repair, and you have it back within a week for about $60.

For some people, the reliability of a cheap system with a spare, is actually better than an expensive system without the spare. On the other hand, with the cheap system you've missed three shots over ten years, vs one missed shot with the expensive system. If you are in a situation where you can't easily reshoot then you might be better off with the expensive system.

I once did a shot for a CD booklet. It involved the musicians actually smashing instruments to pieces. If my strobe had failed on that shot we didn't have extra instruments for a reshoot. When I am shooting clothing for a catalog, it isn't a problem. If the strobe failed I would ask the model to take a 2 minute break. I'd swap in a new light, and then we would re-shoot the last shot and continue.

There are lots of different types of photographers, with many different needs. There is no single solution that's right for everyone.

robertfel said:

How's the wireless remote and TTL on those 20 year old Elis?

Flashes are like long duration laptops nowadays. You can buy the top of the line that will last 10-20 years. Or you can get a great value that will last 10 years and have money left over to buy another one in 10 years. And that newer model will be smaller, lighter, cheaper, more powerful with better features and things you didn't even think you needed 10 years prior.

I say that owning a 15 year old Profoto Compact that is still going strong and I'm very satisfied with it.

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my Eli wireless remote works just fine thanks. My newer units I control power, modeling lights and all. Fully compatible with older units all the way to my ELC and Ranger RXs. Even control the newer ones with my iPhone but see them all on the wireless net. The old ones fire just fine on the net.

Using the new Eli remote on camera can easily shoot HS with any of the units. All my old through new Eli's are fully compatible with wireless I'm quite happy and have complete confidence my old tanks will perform as required That new Eli Remote HS is nice I can adjust the timing of the flash to fine tune HS. Excellent stuff

Ive got no clue about Eli repair service. Never needed it.

I do not require TTL. I prefer controlling my exposure rather than letting TTL guess what I want.

There are modular laptops you can upgrade as you go along too. There are limits though . But a strobe fires so I'm good to go.

I prefer to buy once and use forever. I'd rather spend future money on other things than replace stuff (that will likely fail when I can't afford it not to - in front of a client)

Ive kept mine for over 20 years. Still generating photons on demand like the day I bought it.

Don89 said:

Ive kept mine for over 20 years. Still generating photons on demand like the day I bought it.

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Not a problem. If you are happy, then you have made the right decision for you.

A few years ago I updated my studio strobes. The old ones still produced photons, but the new ones had other features that made my workflow easier.

My expectation is that the studio strobe market is about to see a period of rapid change.

I expect to see extremely bright and efficient modeling lights making the strobes also useful for video.

I expect to see

• better efficiency, allowing better portable battery use.
• faster recycle times.
• variable flash durations and settable color temp.
• much better wireless remotes.
• better integration with cameras.
• Lower prices

None of the above is necessary for photography. However, like auto-focus, camera metering, camera previews, and many other features, these things make it easier to get the photos we want.

As you have demonstrated, not everyone wants or needs these features. If you are happy without newer features, then that's OK.

As it turns out, I drive a 1990 Mazda Miata. I bought the car new, and it still runs great. It serves my needs and I am quite happy with it. I feel no desire to replace it with a newer car. On the other hand, I don't pretend to suggest that most people should buy a car with the intent of keeping it 26+ years. Yes, it's a possibility, but it's not a strategy for everyone.

My point was that the OP should think about what's coming in future products. That will help him determine whether he wants to invest in strobes that he will use for 20 years, or buy a system that he hopes to replace in 5 years.

Not sure about the accuracy of that review. I seriously doubt an AD600 is actually 2.5 stops brighter then the B1 when shot with its standard reflector.

Calling the build quality a tie is also really hard to believe.

A Miata?

Don89 said:

A Miata?

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Yes.

We're getting a little off topic here. It's a 1990 Mazda MX-5 convertible. 5-speed manual transmission, and I sprung for power windows. In the USA it is marketed as the "Mazda Miata"

At this point it's older than most of the models I shoot.

stjarvis said:

I seriously doubt an AD600 is actually 2.5 stops brighter then the B1 when shot with its standard reflector.

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I can see that with no problem, he's sacrificing the wider spread for a hotter center.

Just changing the zoom on the Profoto Compact from '4' to '10' is more than 1 stop. At <10' you're probably tripling the spread.

Strange how all these comparisons are coming together so soon.

I have profoto D1's and Einstein & Digibees. They are both nice systems. Here's the big difference for me: $$$$.

Profoto is fantastic, but that system will continue to suck big bucks out of your wallet long after you've bought it. Every accessory you get for it will cost a small fortune: a simple softbox or beauty dish, be ready to pay.

Buff gear costs a fraction and the build quality and durability of the lights and accessories are way better than you would expect for the price. Best bargain in photography today, period.

Don't get me wrong. Im not trashing Profoto. Its top notch and I love my D1 kit. It's like house-shopping. If you can afford to buy that million dollar house, great, but you better be able to afford the taxes, insurance, maintenance and upkeep, landscaping and furnishing it. If not, it may be a good idea to buy something in the $450k range.

If money is not an issue for you then never mind all this, but maybe someone else will be on the fence and this may help.

Seriously? Go to Godox.

Yes, other may be more stable. So what - you NEED spares anyway (because yes, IF something fails or gets damaged you may not have time to wiat for another unit) and Godox are cheap enough to handle that. And still be below budget.

If every Godox I have fails 2 times in the next 20 years, I still am cheaper. AFTER repair costs. If they go bankrupt - I still have the flashes and the spares. And they likely go not bankrupt - they are quite big.

Plus, Godox has a seriously nice selection by now - look at the AD 600 remote heads... a feature missing at all others.

I made a post here why not to use them some time ago, and nothing came back that is a real blocker. Reliability (need spare anyways) and repair (which is not so expensive -> compared to saving a ton of money on the flashes first place) are not bad enough to block me from going to them.

You really must take funds into consideration even if you do not really care (like I do) because at the end, having nearly twice the number of flashes is VERY good for guaranteeing things work. And no, Profoto is not more reliable... if I trip on the day of the shot and need a spare right there.

FrankZayas said:

I have profoto D1's and Einstein & Digibees. They are both nice systems. Here's the big difference for me: $$$$.

Profoto is fantastic, but that system will continue to suck big bucks out of your wallet long after you've bought it. Every accessory you get for it will cost a small fortune: a simple softbox or beauty dish, be ready to pay.

Buff gear costs a fraction and the build quality and durability of the lights and accessories are way better than you would expect for the price. Best bargain in photography today, period.

Don't get me wrong. Im not trashing Profoto. Its top notch and I love my D1 kit. It's like house-shopping. If you can afford to buy that million dollar house, great, but you better be able to afford the taxes, insurance, maintenance and upkeep, landscaping and furnishing it. If not, it may be a good idea to buy something in the $450k range.

If money is not an issue for you then never mind all this, but maybe someone else will be on the fence and this may help.

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It's interesting to compare the Einstein to a Profoto D1. While the Profoto is better by some measures, the Einstein is actually better at some.

The Einstein offers a shorter flash duration.

The Einstein offers a wider power range.

The Einstein is smaller and weighs less.

The Einstein maintains a consistent color temp across the entire power range. The Profoto D1 color temp varies with the power setting.

I'm not commenting on which is the overall better light, just that while the Profoto D1 scores better on some metrics, the Einstein actually scores better on others.

Whether or not these metrics are important depends on your specific needs. If you need consistent color temp across the entire power range, or very short flash duration, then then Einstein might be a better choice than the Profoto D1.

I like that folks like Godox will push the market into more features from the slow moving market leaders. Competition benefits us all.

But more "moving parts" can likely induce reliability problems.

Lets hope Godox will be around in 20 years. Hoping your units a long happy healthy reliable life. Ive certainly enjoyed my Eli's that long.

Every year, I invest in one item my shoots don't require. So Ive built quite a collection of bits, modifiers and features. It's pleasing they are all compatible and interchangeable. My newest trigger can drive my oldest light. They are all HS capable.

What works for me may not meet your needs. That's why we all have a choice in the direction we go. Competition is good for everyone.

Michael Fryd said:

FrankZayas said:

I have profoto D1's and Einstein & Digibees. They are both nice systems. Here's the big difference for me: $$$$.

Profoto is fantastic, but that system will continue to suck big bucks out of your wallet long after you've bought it. Every accessory you get for it will cost a small fortune: a simple softbox or beauty dish, be ready to pay.

Buff gear costs a fraction and the build quality and durability of the lights and accessories are way better than you would expect for the price. Best bargain in photography today, period.

Don't get me wrong. Im not trashing Profoto. Its top notch and I love my D1 kit. It's like house-shopping. If you can afford to buy that million dollar house, great, but you better be able to afford the taxes, insurance, maintenance and upkeep, landscaping and furnishing it. If not, it may be a good idea to buy something in the $450k range.

If money is not an issue for you then never mind all this, but maybe someone else will be on the fence and this may help.

Click to expand...

It's interesting to compare the Einstein to a Profoto D1. While the Profoto is better by some measures, the Einstein is actually better at some.

The Einstein offers a shorter flash duration.

The Einstein offers a wider power range.

The Einstein is smaller and weighs less.

The Einstein maintains a consistent color temp across the entire power range. The Profoto D1 color temp varies with the power setting.

I'm not commenting on which is the overall better light, just that while the Profoto D1 scores better on some metrics, the Einstein actually scores better on others.

Whether or not these metrics are important depends on your specific needs. If you need consistent color temp across the entire power range, or very short flash duration, then then Einstein might be a better choice than the Profoto D1.

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I have a different take on it that is a lot more absolutist: unless you have a lot of money tied up in Profoto mount light modifiers or live and work where tje AC power is 220 volt, the Einstein E640 is an all round better lighting instrument than the D1. Light quality is a big part of that but so is price and reliability. I've been using my first pair of Einsteins since right before they were introduced to the general public and they have been rock solid reliable. That they have two remote control radio triggering systems, one of which integrates with TTL controlled flashes is important too.

However the D2 is a very different kettle of fish.

Profoto's long legacy is both a boon and a curse. The boon part is somewhat obvious but the curse part is that it constrains somewhat their ability to innovate - But God knows they are trying - but where it really hurts them is that if they priced the D and B series monolights to be more competive I believe they think they will devalue the overall brand if they start cutting corners.

Have you ever sat with a tech as they take apart a flash? I have and Profoto really invests on the internal details -like the cooling fan ball bearings - that less expensive competitors don't.

Ellis Vener said:

However the D2 is a very different kettle of fish.

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Ellis, so you think the D2 are worth the investment? I wasn't too sure about the D1, but the D2 really do seem pretty great (besides the recessed flash tube, hehe, you know I don't love that design!)

Ellis Vener said:

Ellis Vener said:

...

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I have a different take on it that is a lot more absolutist: unless you have a lot of money tied up in Profoto mount light modifiers or live and work where tje AC power is 220 volt, the Einstein E640 is an all round better lighting instrument than the D1.

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The Einsteins are rated 95-265VAC at 50/60Hz. There should be no problem using them in parts of the world where 220VAC 50Hz is the norm.

I find it problematic to talk about the "all around better XXX" because different people have different needs. It doesn't matter whether or not the light is better for most people, what matters is whether or not the light is better for me.

I suspect that there are people who would be better off with the Einstein, and people who are better off with Profoto.

Personally, I primarily shoot with Einsteins, and I am very happy with them. I feel no need to switch to a different brand.

I am thinking about adding a few more DigiBees to my collection to use as video lights. The DigiBee uses the same modifiers as the Einsteins. I like the idea of being able to use all my existing modifiers and reflectors when shooting video.

rajatbhardwaj said:

Ellis Vener said:

However the D2 is a very different kettle of fish.

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Ellis, so you think the D2 are worth the investment? I wasn't too sure about the D1, but the D2 really do seem pretty great (besides the recessed flash tube, hehe, you know I don't love that design!)

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I believe that is uses inside technology that's close to the B1 or B2.

If that's the case then it will have unmatched colour stability :



In that test above the B2 behaves extremely poorly in comparison to anything else. According to Profoto some packs (mine too) exhibit this problem and it's a firmware issue. They have been aware of it for at least more than a month now (possibly more), and still nothing.

I too wish Profoto would consider releasing at least one head or monollight at the "entry" level that has an exposed flash tube, maybe with an "extension" that you would be able to fit on the head to prolong Profoto's mount, a little like Broncolor's Siros umbrella reflector, to then be able to fit OCF modifiers, or to increase flash tube protection.

Ellis Vener said:

Have you ever sat with a tech as they take apart a flash? I have and Profoto really invests on the internal details -like the cooling fan ball bearings - that less expensive competitors don't.

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One of my B2 heads was repaired in front of me. The head's heatsink itself is as big as an entire Quadra head .

On a lesser positive note, the reason it was repaired is that manufacturing tolerances were poor and its improperly molded parts and assembly made it more difficult than necessary to put OCF modifiers on.

MayaTlab0 said:

In that test above the B2 behaves extremely poorly in comparison to anything else. According to Profoto some packs (mine too) exhibit this problem and it's a firmware issue. They have been aware of it for at least more than a month now (possibly more), and still nothing.

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Profoto has shown a habit of staying 100% silent on anything until they're 100% ready to address it. When they announce a firmware fix, it's ready for download. When they announce a new product, it's available for sale in dealers that day. Sucks that they're being silent on this, but I would expect a fix soon.