Deciding which strobe system

[stjarvis]

Going to buy a strobe with part of this years bonus. Trying to decide which system to buy into. I plan to use it for both location, and home studio.

I've been looking at either the Profoto D2 500, Broncolor Siros S 800, or a PCB Einstein and a couple DB800's. Planning to pair whatever I go decide on with a PCB Vagabond VLX.

None of them offer everything I want:

The D2 has a built in reflector (extra $170 for a glass dome just to make it work like it should), and all Profotos accessories cost twice as much as they should (speed rings, TTL Air Remote, reflectors). The RFI softboxes are priced ok, which seems strange. Profoto doesn't publish t0.1 times which is annoying.

The Siros S doesn't have many reviews, and some are showing up used already. Not sure if it supports TTL. It's remote sucks (re-branded Godox that I already own, not very intuitive, and range isn't good), but you can control the lights via an iphone app, so I could use the Phottix Odin II to trigger them. They are heavy.

The Einstein: No HSS. Problematic speed ring. No handle. Probably end up selling at some point, but I could put together a whole small studio for the same price as the D2, Softbox, and TTL remote.

Any opinions / other suggestions? I'm looking for at least 500ws, with short flash duration, fast recycle times, good shot to shot consistency, from an established company.

 

[Tdoan]

you got an hour left on this deal

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4084682

It got great recommendations from members here so I jumped on the deal. Ordered on Monday morning before 12, it arrived on Tuesday. Will take it for a shoot this weekend but so far everything looks good.

--
Tien
====
Please tell me what I can do better or differently. If you are right, I will be grateful as you have taught me something. If I happen to disagree with you, I will still be thankful as you have shown me a different viewpoint, an alternative method.

 

[stjarvis]

With the Xplor 600 I worry about the long term support for the brand, I'm not sure it's fast enough at usable power settings, and I doubt the modeling light is bright enough to be useful when the lights in a soft box. It also uses that same Godox remote that user interface annoys the crap out of me.

The remote head, and ac adapter do make it very attractive.

 

[Tdoan]

With the Xplor 600 I worry about the long term support for the brand, I'm not sure it's fast enough at usable power settings,

tbd I guess. I had settled on an einstein and 2 digibees for final setup but the features, price, and recommendations from one of the true expert that I follow and respect had me close one eye and plunged. and no, I am not blaming him if things go wrong. The advice was offered, the decision was mine, and hence consequences will also be mine.

and I doubt the modeling light is bright enough to be useful when the lights in a soft box.

will check that out.

It also uses that same Godox remote that user interface annoys the crap out of me.

please share your thoughts, what bothers you about it. I find it logical but then I am a geek head who only had a few hours of playing with it.

The remote head, and ac adapter do make it very attractive.

The remote head is like somebody heard me ranting. I have been complaining "why do they have to put everything into this .... thing just so I have carry another heavy load (sandbag) to counter balance it... does anyone do engineering design anymore or are they just a bunch of systems engineers, slapping things together,see it works and call it a day?"

 

[Nikonparrothead]

Going to buy a strobe with part of this years bonus. Trying to decide which system to buy into. I plan to use it for both location, and home studio.

I've been looking at either the Profoto D2 500, Broncolor Siros S 800, or a PCB Einstein and a couple DB800's. Planning to pair whatever I go decide on with a PCB Vagabond VLX.

None of them offer everything I want:

The D2 has a built in reflector (extra $170 for a glass dome just to make it work like it should), and all Profotos accessories cost twice as much as they should (speed rings, TTL Air Remote, reflectors). The RFI softboxes are priced ok, which seems strange. Profoto doesn't publish t0.1 times which is annoying.

The Siros S doesn't have many reviews, and some are showing up used already. Not sure if it supports TTL. It's remote sucks (re-branded Godox that I already own, not very intuitive, and range isn't good), but you can control the lights via an iphone app, so I could use the Phottix Odin II to trigger them. They are heavy.

The Einstein: No HSS. Problematic speed ring. No handle. Probably end up selling at some point, but I could put together a whole small studio for the same price as the D2, Softbox, and TTL remote.

Any opinions / other suggestions? I'm looking for at least 500ws, with short flash duration, fast recycle times, good shot to shot consistency, from an established company.

Ok first thought, which offers most of what you NEED in a lighting setup. Second thought, if you're already contemplating selling the Einsteins, they're not the light for you.

So you're down to the Profoto and Broncolor. You can ask people who have the Broncolor on sale already why they didn't suit their needs. But you already hate the remote interface -- and that's not changing.

Thing is, you might hate the Profoto remote interface too (try before you buy -- even if you have to rent for a couple of days -- is a beautiful thing).

The cost of soft boxes are fluid lots of options with speed rings out there. Heck, Joey L uses Profoto lights with Elinchrom soft boxes.

Good luck with your choice

 

[Ellis Vener]

The D2 has a built in reflector (extra $170 for a glass dome just to make it work like it should),

Have you actually used a D1, B2, or D2, which all have the same flash tube /reflector design? I've used the D1 and the B2. And except for a few specialty modifiers there is no need for that glass dome, not even with large (55x72 inch) softboxes.

and all Profotos accessories cost twice as much as they should (speed rings, TTL Air Remote, reflectors). The RFI softboxes are priced ok, which seems strange. Profoto doesn't publish t0.1 times which is annoying.

my understanding is that at all energy levels below full the published times are to the t0.1 standard. If you think they are not simply by 3 to get the t0.1 times ( i.e. 1/1200 / 3 = 1/400th). The RFI softboxes are Profoto's attempt to capture revenue that would otherwise go to companies like Creative Light Chimera, Westcott, etc. Since you seem most interested in very high quality geat, I'd be looking at Chimera Lighting or Plume Wafer softboxes.

The Siros S doesn't have many reviews, and some are showing up used already. Not sure if it supports TTL. It's remote sucks (re-branded Godox that I already own, not very intuitive, and range isn't good), but you can control the lights via an iphone app, so I could use the Phottix Odin II to trigger them. They are heavy.

no argument with any of that.

The Einstein:

No HSS.

correct. Even at full power the flash diration is too short for HSS work.

Problematic speed ring.

I've had Einsteins since before they went on sale to the public, and I bought another one about six months ago. Among the updates to the latest version is a much improved attachment mechanism. With the older ones, the only size softboxes l've ever had a problem with are the large (54x72 inch) models. In many cases with non-Paul Buff Balcar speedrings the problems I usually see are due to the Speedring manufacturer making the collar flange a little too short.

Oddly the new DigiBees from the same company have a much stronger modifier mechanism. I can figure out why they don'tupdate the one on the Einstein to that mechanism.

And honestly except for Profoto Pro heads for that size Softbox I have always used a metal CHimera model speedring which can attached directltly to a a C-stand grip head.

No handle.

Yeah I don't like that either.

Probably end up selling at some point, but I could put together a whole small studio for the same price as the D2, Softbox, and TTL remote.

yep. But the killer is that for an all manual, no TTL and no HSS FLASH, TheEinstein remains the stateof the art.

Any opinions / other suggestions? I'm looking for at least 500ws, with short flash duration, fast recycle times, good shot to shot consistency, from an established company.

In anoher post you mentioned modeling light brightness. If that is a criteria the Einstein and the DigiBee are the stand outs.

if you want TTL, HSS, and an onboard battery option the XPLOR 600 TTL HSS offers better overall value. Italso has an AC power option the Profoto B1 intentionally and sadly lacks.

--
Ellis Vener
http://www.ellisvener.com
Free your eyes and the rest will follow. (With apologies to George Clinton.)

 

[stjarvis]

Does anyone know if the D2 supports a stroboscopic mode? I see a quick mode listed that fires up to 20 flashes per second, but it's not clear if that's a stroboscopic mode, or just so it can keep up with the burst rate of cameras.

 

[peety333]

I'm a firm believer in Profoto as a system. I started with D1s, added B1s, then B2s, and just recently picked up a used D4 system. There are definitely nuances within the system (can't use OCF modifiers on a D1/D2/D4, can't get full potential out of some modifiers on D1/D2/B1/B2) but the flexibility is amazing across the whole line. You're not only getting one of the best selections of in-brand modifiers, many others make their mods fit Profoto heads. As Ellis said, go take a look at Plume: my fourth and fifth Plume modifiers should be coming to me today. Mola is another good yet brand-versatile choice.

You grumbled about the remote for the Bron. I'd be surprised if anyone could grumble about the remotes for Profoto. My only nit is that the AirTTL-C/N[/S I assume] can't _control_ groups D-F (it'll trigger them all, just can't adjust the levels etc.) I started with a classic Air Remote which can control A-F, so I do have that as an option. Plus, the USB control thingy (yes, still overpriced) was good and just recently got better with a new software upgrade. I can now rename each head ("Key", "Fill", "Back left hair"), change modeling light settings, and even bump a head into a different group remotely. I do some wild&crazy things with lights for headshot work, and the re-group feature is going to be a nice bonus for me (and anyone else who can understand my brain).

Most importantly, the whole line JUST WORKS and works ad works. The legacy Acute systems aren't so easy but they're old; everything else is so easy, a caveman could do it.

 

[rajatbhardwaj]

This is pretty much the same decision I'm facing! I mostly shoot fashion/portrait work in studio.

None of them offer everything I want:

Amen.

The D2 has a built in reflector (extra $170 for a glass dome just to make it work like it should), and all Profotos accessories cost twice as much as they should (speed rings, TTL Air Remote, reflectors). The RFI softboxes are priced ok, which seems strange. Profoto doesn't publish t0.1 times which is annoying.

This is my biggest sticking point. I use large or specialty modifiers (Profoto 8' umbrella, Broncolor Para 88, 4x6 softboxes) and from what I've read on the internet (I realize it's not always true but does give me pause), these things have difficulty filling those out.

Broncolor Para 133 w/ Profoto OCF Flashes — The Broketographers

We could not find any definitive information on the compatibility of Broncolor's Para-series of reflectors with Profoto's OCF-series flash heads (the B1's and B2's). So, to help others that may be in the same situation, we set out to put together some first-hand information on using the Broncolor Pa

www.thebroketographers.com

https://cornicello.com/itfigures/parabolic-umbrellas-3

What's frustrating is that all these posts talk about how it looks inside the reflector, which I don't really care much for. I'd like to see how it looks on the actual subject. If it's not noticeable or is an easy fix in post, I wouldn't mind. And since no place rents these glass domes, I can't really test it for myself before buying.

The Siros S doesn't have many reviews, and some are showing up used already. Not sure if it supports TTL. It's remote sucks (re-branded Godox that I already own, not very intuitive, and range isn't good), but you can control the lights via an iphone app, so I could use the Phottix Odin II to trigger them. They are heavy.

I've been considering the Siros S, but then I wouldn't be able to use my Profoto 8' umbrella and I seriously love that thing.

 

[Ellis Vener]

What's frustrating is that all these posts talk about how it looks inside the reflector, which I don't really care much for. I'd like to see how it looks on the actual subject.

I cannot speak to how the B1,D1, and D2 work with the Para 88 either with or without the glass dome extension , but with the 54 x 72 - inch Chimera Lighting Super Pro X (white) the light is very even ( within a tenth of a stop) once you are a foot or two past the front diffuser. I have tested that with both a good meter and with test shots.

 

[Ellis Vener]

Does anyone know if the D2 supports a stroboscopic mode? I see a quick mode listed that fires up to 20 flashes per second, but it's not clear if that's a stroboscopic mode, or just so it can keep up with the burst rate of cameras.

Since Profoto does not say it has a stroboscopic mode , and they surely would if it were a feature, the answer has a 99.999% probability of being "no it does not."

 

[rajatbhardwaj]

What's frustrating is that all these posts talk about how it looks inside the reflector, which I don't really care much for. I'd like to see how it looks on the actual subject.

I cannot speak to how the B1,D1, and D2 work with the Para 88 either with or without the glass dome extension , but with the 54 x 72 - inch Chimera Lighting Super Pro X (white) the light is very even ( within a tenth of a stop) once you are a foot or two past the front diffuser. I have tested that with both a good meter and with test shots.

 

[stjarvis]

Some updates from Bron (I asked some questions about the Siros L too):

The Siros lights that support Hyper Sync with the RFS2.2 are:

Siros S 800

Siros L 400 / 800

The battery in the Siros L is Lithium Ion (not lifepo4) and lasts 1.5 - 2 years

There are not plans to make an AC adapter for the Siros L

The inverter they recommend for the Siros S is the LP-800x (I plan to ignore that recommendation and either go with the Vagabond VLX, or Tronix Explorer 500Li. I think either will do ok with the Bron Siros S 800, or Profoto D2)

I'm leaning toward the Profoto D2 right now, but haven't entirely made up my mind. I emailed Profoto asking if the D2 has a strobo mode, or if I can use the optical trigger, and a speedlight to get it to strobe (Dance is the main reason I want short flash durations, and stobo).

 

[robertfel]

I'm looking for at least 500ws, with short flash duration, fast recycle times, good shot to shot consistency, from an established company.

You mentioned all battery powered systems, but didn't mention the need to be away from AC. On location meaning outside of your home or in the woods? Are you sure you need a battery powered system? If you're only on location occasionally, can you get away with like this? http://www.adorama.com/dnxp800.html
I believe it's a rebranded Godox battery. I have the earlier XP1100 which is way heavier, but it has a great recycle time and price. I don't worry about the weight, since I need it to weigh down the lightstand anyway.

Lots of random thoughts:

I have a Profoto Compact, Acute 2s and various heads including twin and ring, the quality of light is wonderful, but the flash duration is terrible. I'm sure the D1s, 2s, whatever are better in regards to flash duration, but it's a non-starter: I can't stand the recessed flashtube. It makes the light more efficient for umbrellas, but the spread is terrible in a beauty dish or my 7' reflector (which I absolutely love, but would only recommend to a working pro due to the cost). The Pro-10 will give you short duration and protruding tube, but your bonus had better be 'yuge'.

Which brings us to the next point, the Profoto accessories are ridiculously overpriced. There's no way that dome costs them anything close to $150, the margins on that thing must make the accountants swoon. I can buy a Pyrex glass that I can microwave or freeze for $10, that little dome isn't worth more than that.

I'm in the process of diversifying my lighting. I got a Dynalite pack and head (yes, exposed flashtube) for a job since the flash duration on the Profoto was too long. It was longer than the flash sync on my camera, I had to slow the shutter for all the power to hit the subject. At that speed the room lights (I couldn't shut them off at the client's HQ) were reflecting in the patent leather and shiny hardware. It's much better now with the Dynalite and 1/250th. So I see your need for HSS.

I also picked up the Flashpoint 600 for quick jobs, I superclamp it to whatever, no lightstand. It's pretty cool, but I understand your worry about the longevity of the company. And I have had some misfires with the remote. With the amount of money you're saving, it may be worth it. You can get an entire light for the cost of replacing a cracked Profoto dome and flashtube.

But maybe your full solution is a mix of Dynalite equipment. The new Baja A6 (AC) has most of what you need. You can get the B6 (battery) when you need to travel (it does have stroboscopic mode). Some of their gear is re-branded from others, but they stand by what they sell. The quality of light is on par with the Profoto pack and heads from what I've seen, but I don't own either one. Here's a B4 (400Ws) video:

 

[Ellis Vener]

Dynalite is rock solid professional level gear that has a long pedigree for both location and studio use. Itdoesnot get the attention it deserves because they don'tspend the money marketing and advertising that other companies do. The performance to cost ratio is higher than that of any of the European labeled brands.

 

[Michael Fryd]

This is no solution that is best for all things. They are all compromises, and you have to pick the one that works best for you.

I'm familiar with the Einsteins, so I'll mention a few of the pros and cons.

First, it doesn't have high speed sync. If you absolutely need high speed sync, then the Einstein is not for you.

The Einstein modifier mounting system is not the best system out there. It isn't bad, but it's not the industry leader. On the other hand, Paul Buff sells more studio strobes in the USA than any other company. It's easy to find a variety of third party modifiers that fit Buff lights.

.

The Einstein and Bees do have the Cyber Commander remote system. There's a bit of a learning curve to it, but it's a very powerful system with a lot of functionality. I'm not aware of anything similar for other systems.

A wireless remote is a big help in any lighting system. One of the advantages of the Cyber Commander is that it offers a graphical readout of current power levels, and current light levels. There is a difference between the two. If two lights have different modifiers, or are different distances from the subject, then at the same power level they will put differing amounts of light on the subject. The Cyber Commander has a built in light meter, that let's you take a measurement of how distance/modifiers are affecting each individual light. Once measured, you can set each light to a particular f/stop.

Many other wireless remotes offer only up/down buttons, and don't give you feedback as to the current power/aperture for the light.

.

The Einsteins have short duration flash, and very good consistency.

With most studio lights, the flash duration gets longer as you lower the power levels. With the Einsteins, it gets shorter.

With most lights, the color temp shifts as you lower power. The color temp can vary by hundreds of degrees across the entire power range. The Einsteins provide consistent power across the entire 2.5Ws to 640Ws range.

Some lights have trouble producing consistent shot to shot power levels once you are 4 or more stops down from full power. The Einsteins are consistent across the entire power range.

.

The Einsteins and DigiBees are not heavy. They are easy to haul around. They work with Buff's Vagabond portable power system. A nice feature is that you can plug multiple lights into a single Vagabond. As you add more lights, recycle time increases, but it all still works. There are two models of Vagabond, both use Lithium based batteries. The Vagabond Mini system is tiny and light weight. One option is to clamp one Vagabond Mini to each light stand. This gives you a light on a stand with no cables coming off it. It's easy to quickly reposition on site.

The Vagabond VLX is a little bigger and heavier, but it recycles the lights twice as fast as the Mini.

.

The DigiBees have a 400W "equivalent", daylight balanced, LED modeling lamp. You can use them as video lights with all your buff compatible modifiers.

.

The Buff company does have a reputation for excellent customer service. If you ever have a problem, repairs are inexpensive and fast. I recently had a small issue with an old Einstein. The fan was noisier than I liked. The light worked perfectly, but the noise was beginning to bother me. It was long out of warranty. I sent it in for repair. Instead of fixing it, they sent me a brand new Einstein and charged me $59.88 (which included return shipping).

 

[robertfel]

Not a super extensive review, but they brought up some good points.

The Profoto B1 vs. Godox AD600 for Flash Photography

I promised a while back that I would do a comparison between the Profoto B1 and the Godox AD600 head to head. I have finally had the chance to rent and spend some time with the Profoto B1 again, and I am ready to give my thoughts on the two as they pertain to the way I shoot and the situations I...

fstoppers.com

 

[Don89]

Does anyone know if the D2 supports a stroboscopic mode? I see a quick mode listed that fires up to 20 flashes per second, but it's not clear if that's a stroboscopic mode, or just so it can keep up with the burst rate of cameras.

Since Profoto does not say it has a stroboscopic mode , and they surely would if it were a feature, the answer has a 99.999% probability of being "no it does not."

--
Ellis Vener
http://www.ellisvener.com
Free your eyes and the rest will follow. (With apologies to George Clinton.)

The new Elinchrom strobes nicely. ELC Pros. I have a couple of the ELC 1000 units.

 

[Don89]

Not a super extensive review, but they brought up some good points.

https://fstoppers.com/originals/profoto-b1-vs-godox-ad600-flash-photography-155679

my Elinchrom strobes - some over 20 years old. No failures. No repairs, always work.

Someone find one this thread and update it in 2036 and let me know how that Godox is doing... I'll bet my Eli's will be working well. Betcha those Profotos will be going strong too.

 

[robertfel]

How's the wireless remote and TTL on those 20 year old Elis?

Flashes are like long duration laptops nowadays. You can buy the top of the line that will last 10-20 years. Or you can get a great value that will last 10 years and have money left over to buy another one in 10 years. And that newer model will be smaller, lighter, cheaper, more powerful with better features and things you didn't even think you needed 10 years prior.

I say that owning a 15 year old Profoto Compact that is still going strong and I'm very satisfied with it.